Why Muslim Cultures Lag Behind

Robert Spencer, Jihad Watch, May 30, 2011

In the past fifty years, many countries have caught up with the rich and developed Western World. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore, with virtually no natural resources, have created advanced, urbanized and prosperous societies, complete with world-class technology that often exceed that which is found in the West. India, Brazil and China, although not yet fully developed, now all possess large and affluent middle classes that did not exist just a few decades ago. {snip}

The Muslim world, on the other hand, has struggled during this era of unprecedented global wealth creation. These countries have profited almost solely, by happy geological accident, from oil and gas extraction. Beyond these activities, economic activity in Muslim countries remains scant, low tech and strictly oriented towards local consumption. Despite trillions of dollars in oil revenue over the past sixty years, Muslim progress in many other areas, such as scientific research, social issues and education, lags badly behind the rest of the world.

How could this be the case? The answer, which the major media dares not touch, lies in the very culture of Muslim countries themselves. {snip}

Belief in magic. State-owned Malaysian newspapers and television stations routinely run breathless stories about witch doctors (‘bomoh’), evil spirits and other forms of the supernatural. Visitors to Malaysia get a good laugh out of such quaint cultural practices, until they realize with a shock that Malaysian belief in such superstition is absolutely sincere. But it’s not just here in Malaysia where this happens. In Saudi Arabia, witchcraft is considered very real and a capital offence. In Iran, laws are on the books that make ‘sorcery’ a crime. And in Iraq, many of the locals are absolutely convinced that American soldiers wear sunglasses that can see through clothing and have bases protected by force fields. A culture that is eager to embrace the supernatural takes a giant step away from rationality and deceives itself fundamentally. {snip}

Belief in conspiracies. Muslims take it as an Article of Faith that various groups of so-called infidels or other outsiders are engaged in various conspiracies to keep Muslims down, make Islam look bad, or are otherwise up to No Good. {snip}

Lack of innovation. Here in Malaysia, it is telling that the word in the Malay language for innovation (“inovasi”) did not exist until it came from English, quite recently, as a loan word. {snip} Islam already has a word for innovation, “bid’ah”. In Islam, this word is essentially the same in meaning as ‘heresy’, which is yet another capital crime under Islamic law. Hence creativity and individuality are utterly stifled in a totalitarian fashion, even in Muslim countries where Islamic law has not yet been fully implemented. Improvisation is also discouraged for similar reasons. {snip}

Lack of devotion to non-family/non tribal/non-clan organizations. In most Muslim societies, loyalty often runs no farther than one’s tribe or sect. {snip} Patriotism amongst the general public is another foreign concept, taken for granted in the West. Muslims may remain loyal to Islam in general, but more importantly, to the tribe in particular.

Lack of empowerment of women. The future, no matter what form it may take, is almost certainly going to involve more technology, not less. How well equipped is a society for this future if half of its members are only (at best) grudgingly given their rights? In many Islamic countries, women are often illiterate and have no rights in essential critical life decisions, such as those involving child-rearing, marriage or education. And why should they? Various Quranic verses, age-old Islamic traditions, and core Islamic teachings render women as nothing more than chattel and the property of their male relatives–never the equal of men. And no one can ‘reform’ these teachings to something more enlightened–see the penalty for “bid’ah” above.

Lack of personal responsibility. Muslim leaders often lie to or deceive their own people, to subordinates, or to allies in order to advance their own personal agendas. {snip} So, the main objective of these leaders, whether at the top, middle or bottom, is to steal as much as they can, while they can, in order to enrich themselves and their families, clans or tribes–‘national interest’ be damned. If you’re one of the rare incorruptible types, or are otherwise too stupid to steal when presented with the opportunity, then more the fool you are. {snip}

Lack of skilled labour. Rich, developed and successful countries like Germany, Japan and others do not just spring into existence. It takes the efforts of millions, skilled specialists toiling endlessly in dangerous and/or monotonous drudgery for decades, to build and also maintain the ever-growing complex web of systems that modern nations depend on to function. But Muslim countries, even the ones with trillions from oil revenue, have consistently failed to create large enough castes of technical specialists that modern nations must have. {snip} This trend is accelerating, paradoxically enough, at a time when the governments of the burgeoning Arab world are having an increasing problem just feeding their exploding populations.

Lack of meritocracy. The West has thrived not only because they have learned to hold people responsible for their actions, but also they have learned to give out rewards based on individual achievement. {snip} In the Islamic world, however, what counts is personal loyalty, personal connections, and tribal/sect membership. Incompetent leaders are preferable to competent ones, so long as they are properly loyal. Such a state of affairs makes for incredible inefficiency on a normal day and catastrophic consequences when any sort of crisis arises. Muslims are fond of saying “it’s God’s will” at difficult times, which for Muslims seems like most of the time. Actually, it’s not so much “God’s will” but more like the inevitable consequences of their dysfunctional culture.

{snip}

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  • highduke

    Liberal-Extremist tripe. It’s only been 2.5 generations, just 60 years since they came out of the desert. Lack of Nationalism/Personal Responsibility/Meritocrisy? That’s too semantically vague & general to mean anything concrete. Magical thinking isn’t as prevalent in mainstream Islam as in Malaysia or even Japan until the 80s. ‘Empowering’ women is a good thing? Anti-innovation is the only correct assessment.

  • Ralph

    Another reason, probably the biggest, is they have an IQ in the mid to lower 80s.

  • Anonymous

    Sounds about right, but notable exaggerations.

    Recall that the ME has been ravaged by constant wars & sanctions, & they are still far better off than Black ones.

    I want to mention that a few nations like Singapore has many advantages the US no longer has. Singapore has never had a bank failure, & many smart American expats have opened offshore accounts there. Malaysia also is a good place to conduct business.

    Also, Persia/Iran has remarkable progressed DESPITE BOTH Islam & sanctions. They have made impressive steps forward in medicine, research etc. What’s keeping them back, as they article mentioned, is Islam & the primitive men who cling to its ideology. More than 60 % of university students in Iran are women. And Persian men are VERY different from Arab men, I assure you.

    Fortunately, Iranian ppl are tiring of sharia & many do not practise the way the Mullahs want them, & many are even converting to Christianity. A Persian friend of mine told me that the scholars are transferring money out of the nation in preparation to flee when revolt erupts…

    Iran, SIngapore etc have enormous potential, especially as Iranian youth hate what pan-Arabism has done to their PErsian culture.

    Alas, since many Sub-Saharan Africans are being allowed into ME countries in alarming amounts, it won’t be long before miscegenation takes its ugly hold. Africa genes tend to dominate that of all other races, & African culture is even more savage than Islamic culture…the 2 go well together, hence many Black thug’ propensity to convert.

    What ME ppl need is the youth to rebel, to overcome outside interference (very difficult) & to truly desire change, in order to see significant improvements in their civilizations.

    I think the backlash & growig intolerance for Islamic culture across Europe will fuel this movement, as many will see that it isn’t wise to define oneself by backward, primitive practises.

    A main problem for Muslims is that they believe their way is the best & the solution to all problems in the world. This is why many of them like to prey on White men…tell them that all their problems with women will cease when they convert so they can use the “hate laws” to justify any behaviour as acceptable.

    Has anyone here noticed that? It’s happening a lot in Western countries. I’ve had quite a few laughs when I’ve seen non-Muslim men reject their ‘dawah’ & tell them outright that they have no intention of treating any woman like that, because it’s vile & doesn’t make sense. NAturally, weak men fall for it.

  • Kingoldby

    Muslims do seem especially prone to self pity, blaming all their failures and short comings on others. Whatever goes wrong, whatever is wrong with their culture, economy or society, it is never their own fault, always the fault of some external conspiracy.

    It must be hard to make any progress when you can’t acknowledge any faults and when you think everything wrong is the fault of all powerful conspiracies.

  • deadindenver

    I believe all of this however Western efforts to change these behaviors and to bring Democracy to them is as idiotic as there belief in magic. Unfortunately are Neocon led missions into the middle east have been ignorant of the family and tribe first mentality and simply made them hate us all the worse. Now some leaders at least proclaim that multiculturalism doesn’t work, but neither has assimilation. Let’s try something new, we swear to no longer interfere with them in there traditional geographical locations and in exchange no more immigration to the west.

  • Oldman

    “Lack of meritocracy. The West has thrived not only because they have learned to hold people responsible for their actions, but also they have learned to give out rewards based on individual achievement. {snip} In the Islamic world, however, what counts is personal loyalty, personal connections, and tribal/sect membership.”

    That was true before the affirmative action/positive discrimination laws. Now the “West” punishes merit and rewards lack of responsibility with government programs and handouts.

    This will be the death of the “West” if it is not ended.

  • olewhitelady

    Any country with an average IQ comparable to American blacks has a problem! Many of the latter believe that fast-food restaurants are putting something in their food to sterilize black males, that researchers are kidnapping blacks for medical experimentation, that their African ancestors invented every advancement known to man, and that the U.S. government is distributing crack to the ghettoes!

  • Courtney from Alabama

    Why not mention race, considering how low the arab IQ is? And before anybody brings up Islam’s “once great past”, please be informed that Islam never had a Golden Age. It was more or less an “Age of copying from others”. The Chinese messed around with technology, and just about every respectable civilization had some math, but science is strictly a European creation and Europeans have done the most with it even up to today more than anybody else (yes, even more than East Asians). Where would the “Islamic Golden Age” have gone without Greek science, and Greek, Persian, and Hindu math? And since the author mentions it, where would modern Japanese technology be without European science and technology? I’ll shout it from the hill tops if I need to. Europeans should be proud of their accomplishments.

  • NAVY

    This is an outstanding article.

    White nations must take responsibility and spread the word about Muslims in order for the truth to be heard around the world.

    1. Belief in magic

    2. Lack of Innovation

    3. Lack of Devotion to Non-tribal Organizations

    4. Lack of Empowerment of Women

    5. Lack of Personal Responsibility

    6. Lack of Skilled Labor

    7. Lack of Merit

    The colonization of the white nations by Muslims is fundementally illegal by nature.

    Muslim tribes living side-by-side first-world whites by either accommodation or submission has the effect of hindering white independent thinking and follow through.

  • Blackguard Burton

    Take the first point: magic. Pure Salafist Islam rejects magic; it is only found in traditional syncretic practice–not just in SE Asia, but as far west as Bosnia. Salafist Islam is the intolerant, hate-filled, unintelligent, terrorist nonsense that is our sworn enemy. The traditional syncretic practice is ancient, beautiful, tolerant, and (I think) cool. So when we attack Islam, please let’s attack the right part.

  • Blackguard Burton

    Take the first point: magic. Pure Salafist Islam rejects magic; it is only found in traditional syncretic practice–not just in SE Asia, but as far west as Bosnia. Salafist Islam is the intolerant, hate-filled, unintelligent, terrorist nonsense that is our sworn enemy. The traditional syncretic practice is ancient, beautiful, tolerant, and (I think) cool. So when we attack Islam, please let’s attack the right part.

  • Spartan24

    As a former Muslim I saw this kind of nonsense first hand. American born Muslim converts, many of whom had college educations, would come up with the most ridiculous garbage and believed it as if their lives depended on it. One very stupid caveat was to repeat an Islamic prayer if someone complimented you on your children or some important posession- otherwise something horrible would happen to it. One former friend was deathly frightened when a Jewish woman in her class complimented her daughter. Remember- this was a college educated White American woman who was a convert to Islam, not an illiterate village woman from the Middle East.

  • ciccio

    All of the above PLUS:

    The three poorest countries in the world – Yemen – Afghanistan –

    Somalia – have a lot of things in common. 100% Muslim. Decades of civil war and the one ingredient that lights the flames of the fire, unchecked population growth. Here are the figures, in millions for 1950, 2000 and projected for 2050

    Somalia : 2 – 10 – 39

    Yemen : 8 – 37 – 69

    Afghanistan : 4 – 23 – 84

    These are just the worst, all the others are not much better. I was just looking at some figures about global warming which has been bruited about for the last twenty years, not a word about population growth. In those twenty years the population of Pakistan has gone from 108 to 187 million, 79 million more, a population equivalent to the whole of Germany. Not only that, in that same time they have managed to cut down half their remaining forests, nothing is quite as effective as that in ensuring plenty of soil erosion and landslides.

  • Anonymous

    If belief in magic is a cause of their backwardness then how come the Chinese (who are one of the most superstitious people on the planet) have advanced so much?

  • White Guy In Japan

    Recently there was a new story here in Japan. It was about some foreign workers who insisted on taking prayer breaks throughout the work shift. None of the foreign workers (generally Brazilian or Chinese) demanded any special privileges. But this one group (who was not identified in the article) insisted that the Japanese workforce adjust for the minorities. Golly gee, I wonder who?

    They invented zero, the concept of nothing. And contributed little else.

  • John Engelman

    An additional factor, which is tied to “lack of empowerment of women,” is a high birth rate. Most women would rather raise a few children well than many poorly. Men are more likely to favor large families.

    When education for women increases, when they are able to work outside of the home, and when they have control over family planning, they usually choose to restrict the number of their children.

    A high birth rate and a stagnant economy means that millions of young men enter job markets with little use for them. With little to live for, many do not fear death. This makes them susceptible to the appeals of terrorists, revolutionaries, or military leaders who promise “glory” in return for obedience.

    A generation ago Latin America had a high birth rate. Right wing dictatorships competed violently for power with left wing revolutionary movements. Now the birth rate in Latin America has declined. The countries are developing democratic governments.

  • BAW

    Another reason: incest. Incest has two negative effects: first, it increases the spread of genetically transmitted diseases (a sick population is not an economically productive one) and generally depresses mean IQ, and second, it reinforces the clannish, in-group mindset. A lot of conflict in the Middle East boils down to the Hatfields and McCoys writ large.

    One reason for the lack of skilled labor is the pervasive anti-Semitism of the Islamic world. Make of it what you will, but a significant percentage of technical and professional workers in the West are Jewish. Witness Israel’s economic successes despite its lack of oil and poor location in the Middle East.

  • Blaak Obongo

    ” I was just looking at some figures about global warming which has been bruited about for the last twenty years, not a word about population growth.”

    Zero Population Growth fell out of favor the instant it became obvious that it wasn’t White people who were doing the overbreeding. Advocating birth control for non-Whites is now officially Racist Hate.

  • John Engelman

    16 — Blaak Obongo wrote at 11:10 AM on June 3:

    ” I was just looking at some figures about global warming which has been bruited about for the last twenty years, not a word about population growth.”

    Zero Population Growth fell out of favor the instant it became obvious that it wasn’t White people who were doing the overbreeding. Advocating birth control for non-Whites is now officially Racist Hate.

    —-

    Years ago, when I lived in the San Francisco Bay area I was listening to KPFA, which is a left wing radio station broadcast from Berkley, California.

    http://www.kpfa.org/

    A black fellow at UC Berkley said she got really angry whenever anyone claimed Africa was over populated. “This is a racist lie,” she averred. “The problem with Africa is not over population, but under population.”

    I just about fell out of my chair at such a preposterous remark. I wanted to call in and ask her how we would benefit from a higher population in Africa. No one on the station challenged her.

  • John Engelman

    14 — White Guy In Japan wrote at 7:54 AM on June 3:

    Recently there was a new story here in Japan. It was about some foreign workers who insisted on taking prayer breaks throughout the work shift. None of the foreign workers (generally Brazilian or Chinese) demanded any special privileges. But this one group (who was not identified in the article) insisted that the Japanese workforce adjust for the minorities. Golly gee, I wonder who?

    They invented zero, the concept of nothing. And contributed little else.

  • Anonymous

    If American black-run cities (average IQ 85) are total failures why are Arab nations (average IQ 85) functional? Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Qatar etc are hardly Haiti or Detroit. Can someone explain why people of purportedly the same IQ can produce wholly different civilizations? Actually, scratch that: Arabs produced a civilization, blacks didn’t/don’t.

    This isn’t a rhetorical question. I’d really like someone knowledgeable to explain this phenomenon.

  • Anonymous

    Here you go again, Courtney. No matter what the original article is about, you see fit to change the subject to your pet topic. As soon as anyone sees your name we know what to expect. And every time you are shown the flaws in your beliefs, you ignore it and then repost the same old in the next thread as if nothing had happened.

    “And before anybody brings up Islam’s “once great past”, please be informed that Islam never had a Golden Age. It was more or less an “Age of copying from others”.”

    Islam very much did have a Golden Age. Building on existing knowledge is not ‘copying’. The term DEVELOPMENT means studying what we have so far and then adding to it. This is true of all cultures. The Romans (both pre-Christian and Christian) also used numerous Greek sources, but I don’t see you accusing them of ‘copying’; why not? For that matter, the Greeks used numerous Egyptian sources, but I don’t see you accusing them of ‘copying’ either. What you fail to note is that the ideas of the Islamic Golden Age were distinctly Islamic, despite using pre-Islamic sources. In other words, they did not ‘copy’, they took it in their own direction. To say that al-Farabi and al-Kindi ‘copied’ Aristotle is as absurd as to say that Aristotle and Plato copied Socrates. Let us give credit where credit is due.

  • Whiteplight

    21 — Anonymous wrote at 7:48 PM on June 3:

    “Here you go again, Courtney. No matter what the original article is about, you see fit to change the subject to your pet topic. As soon as anyone sees your name we know what to expect. And every time you are shown the flaws in your beliefs, you ignore it and then repost the same old in the next thread as if nothing had happened.”

    > Leave Courtney alone, there is nothing wrong or absurd in her post. No one has to defend their postings here, but let’s see you try;

    List the locations and events of your Islamic Golden Age. List the specific accomplishments. From everything I have read, Muslims enlisted others in for their labor and knowledge (Often Hellenistic Jews), and profited and luxuriated from their work. This is why Islam quickly fell into an unbroken decline; they did not progress, but digressed as the West improved and they did not. Islam was established to be a slave trading empire, by a merchant who saw that making it religious in function would have advantages, that an the fact that in the Middle East (and unfortunately too often in the West) every big movement required religious support/endorsement. That is why they did not destroy what they captured, it was to be turned into profit making machinery for themselves.

    “And before anybody brings up Islam’s “once great past”, please be informed that Islam never had a Golden Age. It was more or less an “Age of copying from others”.”

    “Islam very much did have a Golden Age.”

    > Making a claim does not prove anything. Muslims had things built, they did not build them themselves. The conditions are the same today; ex; Qatar is wealthy, but the Arabs do not do the work.

    ” Building on existing knowledge is not ‘copying’. The term DEVELOPMENT means studying what we have so far and then adding to it. This is true of all cultures. The Romans (both pre-Christian and Christian) also used numerous Greek sources, but I don’t see you accusing them of ‘copying’; why not?

    > She doesn’t have to go into the history of the West. Everyone knows what the Romans copied and what they invented, but less is known about Islamic accomplishments – because their were so few and disappeared long ago! Civilization developed without their input. They took for themselves and interest in foreign ideas faded.

    “For that matter, the Greeks used numerous Egyptian sources, but I don’t see you accusing them of ‘copying’ either. What you fail to note is that the ideas of the Islamic Golden Age were distinctly Islamic, despite using pre-Islamic sources.”

    > She doesn’t have to list the line of influence in the march of civilization, but if you do, you will realize that Minoans were (Greek) European and the Egyptians copied them, or may have even been established from the Minoan and only rose after that kingdom was destroyed by earthquake/volcano (the myth of Atlantis). Don’t try to tell us the Nubians produced Egyptian civilization. All the archeology and evidence says that it was from the North side of the Mediterranean. Moreover, Islam copied Judaism and Christianity to come up their own convenient version. Perhaps partly out of jealousy, because Islamic people seem deeply affected by that vice.

    “In other words, they did not ‘copy’, they took it in their own direction. To say that al-Farabi and al-Kindi ‘copied’ Aristotle is as absurd as to say that Aristotle and Plato copied Socrates. Let us give credit where credit is due.”

    Al Farabi and al Kindi were copyists, not individuals with schools of philosophy that stand alone as every European philosopher since the Greeks have.

    >It is up to you to list all these components of Islamic Golden Age. But use references, not simple bombastic claim and assertion, otherwise you are guilty of what you accuse Courtney.

    > Also, you might tell us why it has failed so miserably in the past 1,000 years, while the West marched forward. Could it be because the point of Islam is for the wealthy to live well on the backs of slaves and infidels?

    Winston Churchill on Islam;

    “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia is in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exists wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.”

  • White Devil

    Wow, just wow. I’ll start at the top.

    Belief in magic – Did you SEE that clip from 2008 about Obama’s stash? No idea where money or value comes from… it’s magic!

    Belief in conspiracies – We in the USA don’t have to believe in conspiracy, we’ve gotten our noses rubbed in several every day. From ‘pass the bill to find out what’s in it’ to the Governator’s love child, what scandal DON’T we have?

    Lack of innovation – Why innovate when you can be fined $4mil for selling $4600 worth of rabbits? I could rant on this one for days. Government at all levels blocks and punishes all kinds of innovation.

    Lack of devotion to non-family/non tribal/non-clan organizations – Really? When the most productive of us are punished for success? Oh! Maybe when were constantly accused of rape, sexism, bigotry, homophobia, racism and what ever flavor of insult comes to the lamestream medias fancy that day. How about when trouble really shows. Fire, Flood, Tornado, who shows to save the day? Who owes who a ration of stuff about anything?

    Lack of empowerment of women – Oh really? Have you looked at the state of the feminist school system? If the results were any worse, they would actually be shooting kids in the head. Oh, and that list of affirmative action women looks like another great government program paved with good intentions. Not a lot of happy MACNAMs around here.

    Lack of personal responsibility – I’ve heard that nearly 50% of the population can’t read, God only knows how many can’t figure. (But hey, at least they aren’t liars, right?) A recent article claimed that most people couldn’t come up with two grand if they had to. From my personal experience, most people can’t make it to work on time.

    Lack of skilled labor – And we pay them… like H1B immigrants? (That’s 12 cents on the dollar btw) Again, school at all levels has become indoctrination rather than education. Why bother to go to school when you can live off the dole? Scam the system and you’re on easy street.

    Lack of meritocracy – Have you seen the Government, School System, any Union, or most businesses today? Merit has nothing to do with what you’re paid or how much power you accumulate. If you don’t make your own way, you’re somebody else’s monkey.

    Looks to me like we’re damn near that third world status already.

  • Euclid

    Islam very much did have a Golden Age. Building on existing knowledge is not ‘copying’

    21 — Anonymous wrote at 7:48 PM on June 3:

    Courtney is actually correct. Islam never had any golden

    age. Its a myth. Islam by itself is inherently incapable

    of creating. All one has to do is read the Quran and see

    what type of nonsense even for the 7th century is inside

    that book. Islam is a highly regressive force that is good

    only at destroying, not constructing.

    Muslims usually had a habit of burning libraries in the

    countries that they invaded.

    The truth is Muslims never did any original thinking that

    much. With few exceptions, most of the time they were just

    copying and plagiarizing other peoples ideas and creations

    and simply passing it off as their own “inventions”.

  • Anonymous

    I still say that the number one reason that Islam lags all other culturally dominant influences in advancing the nominal populations of those countries afflicted with it is that it is a religion based on predation of other cultures’ strengths rather than creating it’s own.

    You cannot play Borg, assimilating the wealth of others while doing nothing to advance your own understanding of life (beyond the way of the torch and sword) and expect to remain world leaders in any competitive society where engineering and science drive the advance of weaponry and tactics.

    There was a comparitive study done recently on the number of scientific papers that were published since 1990 by all the Islamic nations vs. those published _in a single year_ in the West. And Islam lost out, utterly.

    Saudi Arabia home of the faithful, only recently dedicated the funds for it’s first non-religious, all hard-sciences, university. They have hundreds of religious schools.

    The IQ issues derive from this emphasis upon the spiritual to the exclusion of the secular. The population problems derive from the IQ problem and you have a vicious cycle of social staticism.

    Which again comes back to Islam being a bandit religion designed to breed warriors for the pillage and desecration of other cultures.

    When the would be victims are too strong to be taken, there is no war to extrovert and empower success to that concept of born-to-blood population strategy. And the young thugs who drive it turn inwards and decay to an entropic state, destroying their society in the process.

    Where that process becomes truly dangerous is when you realize that Islam is now the largest religion on the planet.

    To source this fatal flaw, one needs only look to Mohammed himself: a serial murdering (600 POWs, by his own hand, in a single day) town robber, rapist and pedophile.

    More than that, he was an illiterate, ignorant, epileptic, primitive.

    It is no wonder then that, as the architect of it’s doctrine, _Mohammed_ is the reason Islam remains exploitationist and predatory, as an anachronism of the 7th century.

  • Courtney from Alabama

    Anonymous poster,

    How does anything in your post change my overall point? That most science (and math and technology for that matter) was created by Europeans? I never said other cultures didn’t do anything. In fact I gave concrete examples of what other cultures produced.

    People like you (who are few in number by the way) are always on here to attack me instead of adding anything substantial to the argument. Why don’t you present your own arguments to the discussion and let me go about adding what I wish to add? So I like focusing on the achievements of Europeans. So what? Everybody has topics they focus on. I don’t see how I detracted from the article in any way.

    On top of that, I would like to add that I am baffled as to why this movement attracts so many Muslim sympathizers. I guess I am not surprised by some of the comments above.

    If it isn’t East Asians, it is Muslims. Why can’t we talk about the greatness of our own people without constantly getting reminded to “put our arrogance in check” and to focus on the contributions of these other cultures that didn’t even contribute nearly as much as whites? Nobody says they didn’t contribute anything.

    All we are saying is they haven’t created as much in science (and math and technology) as whites have, by a long shot. And both groups are very different from Europeans, and it is sad that this even needs to be discussed on these websites. Some of you act as if Arabs and East Asians should be made into honorary whites or something.

    It is time to focus on our own people. I am getting sick and tired of Asian and Islamic apologists showing up when articles like this get put up, and reminding us about how “Muslims have it right in how they treat women, while the West is wrong”. Just as an aside, just because feminism is a bad idea, that doesn’t mean the abuse of women is a good idea either. Why should you even need to be told that?

  • Anonymous

    “List the locations and events of your Islamic Golden Age.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Islamic_Golden_Age

    For more details, visit your local library.

    “How does anything in your post change my overall point? That most science (and math and technology for that matter) was created by Europeans?”

    We all know what your point is because you have posted it so many times already. But it’s not even a point. Europe peaked more recently than others, therefore of course it came up with the most stuff. Take a pencil and draw a series of concentric circles from small to large; the outermost one is going to be the largest. That is a rough representation of how knowledge grows. So whoever is the most recent person to receive the pencil will get to draw the largest circle. That is all it is.

    “So I like focusing on the achievements of Europeans. So what?”

    The problem is you don’t focus on the achievements of Europeans. Calling Islamic achievements ‘copying’ is not focusing on the achievements of Europeans. Saying “Islam never had a Golden Age” is not focusing on the achievements of Europeans. I have not once seen you praise European achievements without inserting a put-down of others in one form or another. You behave like a parent who is incapable of praising their own child without dissing the neighbor’s child. And if that were not bad enough, the neighbour’s child is 30 years older than your child, yet you believe comparing their diplomas is perfectly accurate when in fact a C in those days was probably worth more than an A today.

  • Kevin

    Dr. Spencer’s analysis is nothing more than a list of modern prejudices. There are many problems with with Islam but insisting they become just like the disconnected automatons of the modern West, programmed for conformity and consumption, is not the solution.

  • Courtney from Alabama

    Anonymous poster,

    I have done plenty of research on this topic. It is because I “visit my local library” that I know so much about it. On the other hand, I also know that using Wikipedia which is liberally biased is the worst thing you can do. Everybody knows that that website is biased. Encyclopedia Britannica which I “open at my local library” supports everything I am saying as does every respectable book on the history of science. Every time, 90% of the pages are devoted to what Europeans did with science, going back to the Greeks. Even in ancient times Europeans dominated. Look at everything the Greeks did. Facts are facts.

    There are obviously others above who agree with me, yet, just like every other time, posters such as yourself (who choose to remain anonymous), always attack me instead of realizing that many others on here say the same as I do. So, once again, are you on here to attack me or instead to add anything of value to the argument?

    And the other thing is that, the fact of the matter is, whites are degraded enough by everybody outside these websites while other races and cultures are praised, even if it means exagerrating and lying about their achievements. Yes, I am quite angry about that. Don’t lecture me on a website such as this on what I can and can’t talk about.

    The bottom line is, I am right. And once again, I always give credit to other cultures when it is due. I don’t follow the liberal mantra of lying about what they have done. I shouldn’t have to explain that to you, but you are obviously on here just to harrass me. I’m done.

  • Anonymous

    “Everybody knows that that website is biased. Encyclopedia Britannica which I “open at my local library” supports everything I am saying”

    And Britannica is not biased?

    “as does every respectable book on the history of science”

    I get it now. A book which says what you want it to say is “respectable”. A book which doesn’t say what you want it to say is “biased”.

    “Even in ancient times Europeans dominated. Look at everything the Greeks did. Facts are facts.”

    And here is a perfect example of why it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you. Classical Athens was a great center of ancient learning, far surpassing even the other Greek cities, to the extent that scholars argue over whether it is correct to credit Greeks as a whole for its accomplishments, rather than credit them as strictly Athenian accomplishments. Then along comes Courtney who attempts to credit ALL EUROPEANS but ONLY EUROPEANS for its accomplishments, despite that Athens received almost no intellectual input from the rest of Europe outside of Greece, while having far more input from Egypt, Persia, India and other non-European sources.

    “There are obviously others above who agree with me”

    Of course. I suppose you also believe that, despite this being a WN hangout, posters here are not Eurocentrically biased in any way.

    “just like every other time, posters such as yourself (who choose to remain anonymous), always attack me”

    Because this site is meant to be about being realistic, and there is nothing realistic about denying the Islamic Golden Age or claiming that Classical Athens represents ancient Europe as a whole.

    “The bottom line is, I am right.”

    And I am sure there will be others here who agree with you.

  • Courtney from Alabama

    Anonymous,

    This argument is becoming circular. You suggested I visit my library. I told you in response that over the course of a number of years I have been reading books in libraries and bookstores that discuss the history of science. Most of them dedicate 90% of their space to developments in Europe. Where are all these achievements from arabs, Indians, and the Chinese that you claim exist but that most of these authors who research the topic aren’t aware of?

    I answered your question by telling you that I do in fact go to libraries all the time to read about this topic and in response you claim all these sources are biased, even though I keep seeing the same patterns over and over in multiple books on the topic.

    I never said that those other nonwhite groups never contributed anything. How much do I need to stress this to you? Or are you just being stubborn? I already know the answer. As others above have pointed out (whose arguments you conveniently ignore while singling me out), where are all these other achievements that you claim exist to the same degree as those of Europeans? Please list them for me.

    You are missing the point. Go ahead and list every mathematician that came from Babylon and India, and I can list even more that came from Greece. Just wait until I list the ones from Europe as a whole in all of history. You listed Persia above which was a white civilization. Persians weren’t arabs. It is also debated that some of the ancient people of India were white to some degree. But whether they were or not is beside the point…..they STILL didn’t do as much with math, science, and technology as Europeans have.

    I have said over and over again that MOST science came out of Europe. You keep listing these other civilizations as if I am not aware of their contributions. I said MOST contributions came from Europe.

    I think this discussion is finished.

  • Anonymous

    First, the library comment was aimed at WhitePlight, not you, since he asked for a list of Islamic Golden Age accomplishments.

    Second, I repeat: the fact that most science came out of Europe is a NON-POINT, because most science came out of the last several centuries, which happened to be a European peak. Re-read my analogy with the concentric circles. You never acknowledge this, and it is dishonest.

    Third, where did I say Persians were Arabs? My point is that it is willfully ignorant to consider Classical Athens to be representative of ‘Europe’. In this, you are no better than the Afrocentrist who considers Egypt to be representative of ‘Africa’.

    “I never said that those other nonwhite groups never contributed anything. How much do I need to stress this to you?”

    You said, and I quote:

    “Islam never had a Golden Age. It was more or less an “Age of copying from others”.”

    Did they copy, or did they contribute? Which is it?

  • ghw

    “Islam never had a Golden Age. It was more or less an “Age of copying from others”.”

    Did they copy, or did they contribute? Which is it?

    ………………………

    Neither. They acquired it (stole it) from others before them, whom they had forcibly conquered. The Moslem conquerors originated virtually nothing. But they destroyed much. Under Islam — if and when it was tolerant, that is — the old culture survived on for another several centuries before it finally flickered out.That was your so-called “Islamic Golden Age”.

    As in Spain, the Christians and Jews were often allowed to live (as dhimmis) and they continued the old Hellenistic classical culture. They were the architects,tradesmen, physicians, etc. In time, many of them, under pressure, converted and sank into the mass. In Egypt, it took several centuries before the masses of conquered people learned Arabic and became Moslems. Many (Copts) still have not converted today. These are the prosperous professional class. Only the wealthy could afford to pay the dhimmi tax; the others had no choice but to convert.

    The Arabs at first were the ruling class, who plundered at will and lived off the masses. As conquerors, that was their privilege. They contributed nothing, yet took credit for what they did not produce.

  • Courtney from Alabama

    Thanks ghw, and everyone else above whose comments this anonymous poster has conveniently ignored. I find it funny that he mentions that I have ignored his statement about Europe only outpacing the rest of the world in recent history which is why they have produced so much, when the fact of the matter is that I have mentioned Greece and Persia and their achievements over and over again. Were they not ancient white people? As for Greeks not being Europeans, ……that is news to me.