European Murder Rates Compared to the United States: Demographics vs Guns

Dean Weingarten, Gun Watch, January 3, 2012

When the subject is gun control, those who demand more for the United States always point to Europe. Europe, they say, has more gun control than the United States, and lower murder rates. Europe, of course, is a diverse place. Some places have lots of guns and low murder rates. Some places have few guns and higher murder rates. The reason that many developed European countries have murder rates much lower than the United States is not guns or gun control. It is demographics.

In 2006 the Department of Justice issued a report on violent felons in large urban counties. It covered the period from 1990 to 2002, and included the 75 most populous counties in the United States. The study accounted for over half of all the murders in the United States in the covered period.

Revealed in the study was a simple breakdown of the demographics of the murderers that is not commonly available. Murderers were divided into three groups. Blacks were the most numerous at 46%. Hispanics were next at 27 percent. Non-Hispanic whites were last at 23 percent.

While the study does not account for all murders in the period studied, it accounts for more than half and almost certainly slightly understates the percentages of Black murderers, because the latest FBI statistics (for 2010) show that when all the murders in the U.S are taken into account, the percentage of Black murderers is over 53 percent.

No one would dispute that there are several distinct cultures among the American black population. No one would dispute that none of these cultures exist in Europe in any statistically significant numbers. Some of the Black American subcultures probably have very low murder rates. We cannot tell because we do not have the data to distinguish between them.

Similarly, there are a number of distinct Hispanic cultures in the United States. These are all derived from cultures in Mexico, Central and South America, and the Caribbean. They are not Spanish or Portuguese. No one would argue that any statistical number of these populations exist in Europe. No doubt, some of these cultures also have very low murder rates, but without data, we cannot separate them out.

Where does that lead us? If we take the 23 percent figure for non-Hispanic whites to be representative for the entire population (remember, it is likely a good bit lower), then the number of murders committed by non-Hispanic and non-black people in the United States for 2010 would be 2989.

The population of non-Hispanic whites for 2010 was 196.8 million. Applying the 2989 murders to this population gives a murder rate of 1.52 per 100,000 population. We cannot get a more precise figure unless we have more demographic data than that given. Asian-Americans, for example, have historically had very low murder rates, but we do not have the data. The 1.52 per 100,000 murder rate is right in the middle of the murder rate of developed European countries. Add the Black and Hispanic numbers back into the mix and apply to the entire United States population, and the murder rate goes up to 4.2 per 100,000. Guns or gun control simply do not correlate to higher murder rates, particularly when you consider that non-Hispanic Whites own guns at much higher rates than do Blacks or Hispanics in the United States.

There are huge numbers of German-Americans, English-Americans, Greek-Americans, Italian-Americans, Scandinavian and Swiss-Americans in the United States. There are no statistically significant numbers of African-American or Hispanic-Americans in Europe.

As a check, you might consider a non-European example. Japan has extreme gun control and extremely low murder rates. The FBI used to track murders by Japanese-Americans before 1980, when access to firearms was relatively easy.

The murder rate of Japanese Americans was less than half that of Japanese in Japan.

Murder rates are driven by cultural background, not by the instrument used.

European murder and gun ownership rates: Link

Department of Justice Study with demographic data: Link

FBI homicide statistics, 2010: Link

Japanese and Japanese American murder rates: Link

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  • I think the white American murder rate would be slightly higher than the white European murder rate, simply because of the nature of our founding.

    • The__Bobster

      European nations have had more than their share of wars, too.

      • So CAL Snowman

        Yeah but Europe’s revolutions were more “Dungeons and Dragons” while our Revolution and the War of 1812 were more “Call of Duty”

        • Remington

          Yeah and that “Call of Duty” certainly explains the French crossing the Atlantic Ocean to single-handedly defeat the Brits at the Battle of the Chesapeake in 1781.

          And the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars during that same era were “Dungeons and Dragons” now ? No wonder most Europeans think that Americans don’t understand much about Western history…

          • Svigor

            Fact remains, despite his light-hearted characterizations, he was right in the facts. America’s wars have all been post-medieval.

          • Morris Thecat

            That is because America itself is “Post Medieval”

          • kjh64

            “No wonder most Europeans think that Americans don’t understand much about Western history…”
            Most Europeans don’t know much about Western history either sadly.

    • Svigor

      Like most Americans of my generation, I was raised steeped in the “Americans are violent” stew. I remember asking an older Irish guy in my youth if Americans seemed especially violent to him. I was surprised at his answer to the negative, that in fact Americans seemed quite docile to him. He was right, of course. Americans are prosperous and live in far less densely populated conditions, two factors which contribute to lower rates of violence. Think football hooligans, political riots, terrorism, etc.

      • I don’t know what your generation is. For comparison’s sake, I’m 35. But the reason the “Americans are violent” meme could be believed is because European cities didn’t have and don’t quite yet have black ghettos. But London sure does, and growing. And in tightly gun controlled England, the London Metropolitan Police has an entire unit, called Trident, to deal with black “gun crime” specifically. And there are forces in Britain, civil rights and otherwise, which are none too happy that Trident exists. The same kind of blithering idiots here in America who are upset when you arrest an ex-con black for felon-in-possession of a firearm, or you have concerted efforts to do so.

    • Joseph

      This is almost certainly true. More desperate/idealistic/risk-taking people were likely settlers to a new continent coupled with the fact that early on, there was little formal law-enforcement or system of justice in many areas to the west. Settlers were either on their own or banded loosely together in smallish farming communities but of necessity were largely self-reliant. They WERE the de-facto government.

      US is frequently and inappropriately compared to Canada and Australia for purposes of “gun violence” but the histories of both countries are significantly different as they were much more thoroughly established by the government of Britain (and France for Canada) I think, by the time that any significant pioneer settlements were beginning. Thus, the influence of formal law enforcement and gov’t control dominated much more so than the US. There is additionally the obvious fact that Australia was a British penal colony so whites were put there unwillingly under gov’t control to begin with, and not likely congenial to a well-armed populace. Since the Brits. started sending prisoners to Botany bay before 1800, a long history of weapons being unwelcome is expected among these people. Who cares what they think?

      Finally, the Americans clearly lifted a finger to and rather quickly broke away from the rule of the crown, rejecting the entire notion that all power should be concentrated in the hands of a central gov’t destined to rule “by divine right”, unlike our weak sisters Australia and Canada. Thank God that they did so.

      • FourFooted_Messiah

        I agree with your premise – the US, and Canada, and Australia, all have separate histories from which to draw. As far as Canada is concerned, France lost all right of say at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham in around 1739 (more or less as part of the Seven Year’s War). The French, see, are the only conquered peoples in Canada, which is part of their butt-hurt. Our Indians were never conquered, we made and honoured treaties that give us white anglos our right to be here (though the Indians always claim more and more and more and more on the basis of treaty …)

        It isn’t so much that handgun use was banned (it is, but that’s a modern thing). It’s because we really didn’t have a Wild West culture – the settling of our North West Territories (which included not only the modern day territories of NWT and Nunavut, but also everything between the Ontario border and the Rockies, except for the Red River Valley (Winnipeg, which was the whole of Manitoba at the time). Guns were for survival – getting food in a time where there were no supermarkets and stuff, rather than for fighting your fellow man. Handguns are kind of silly to use for killing wild food animals.

        Nowadays, the long-gun registry was lambasted, but still no one advocated the normalization of hand-guns. Famers didn’t like that they had to register guns in order to murder deer to cheap out on supermarket bills like a bunch of greedy Jews or to stupidly kill coyotes who took care of gophers on their grain farms, just because “coyote pelts are worthy monnnnnay”. Frankly, I think the only legit use of guns is in WAR against humans. Want to kill an animal? Then bring a knife not a gun, and kill something your size and weight, not a rabbit or a fox. They cannot shoot you.

        Anyway, despisement for human double standards aside (I would nuke the hell of out Pakistan, but the same people who would say “you can’t do that” would be more than happy to wipe out deer in a local area just for fun and say “might makes right” in response to protests), yeah, I hate guns – UNLESS USED IN WAR AGAINST OTHER HUMANS, which is what GUNS Were iNVENTED FOR.

        • Joseph

          Agreed, guns were invented for war against other people but then, hammers were invented for spalling stone to make flaked tools or crushing fibers and now they are used for driving nails. So what? Thankfully, guns today serve many purposes other than war.

          You must’ve never observed animal behavior to any significant degree. I assure you that a sparrow or a fox or a beetle or a fish or a mouse or a pig would eat you in a moment if they had the means to do so. Foxes and coyotes do not admonish their kind to “kill something your size and weight”. They are ruthless predators -as nature has designed them to be and seek every advantage in predation. We just happen to be better predators. Using your reasoning, a knife would not be a legitimate means of killing anything either so I don’t see how that is morally preferred. Killing animals for food is not “murder” anywhere on the planet except perhaps, Sierra Club or Greenpeace meetings.

          I also don’t see any remote relevance to the article at hand.

          • And as the FBI notes, hammers are used more often in the United States to murder people than rifles. Relevant because the police chief in Waterbury, People’s Republic of Connecticut doesn’t want any more gun shows in his town. I searched, and Waterbury still has plenty of hardware stores. Is Chief Wiggum going to close them? (Unfortunately, the Chief has a nice Italian surname — Unusually idiotic behavior for someone who does.)

          • Joseph

            Don’t confuse people with facts; it just upsets them.

        • Michael_C_Scott

          I love old mechanical items. There was an old mechanical “thing” in the warehouse office on a desk yesterday, and nobody knows what it is, except it has sharp edges on some of the moving parts. Projectile weapons are like that, though they’re a little less obviously dangerous.

          I disagree with you on the score of hunting with a knife, as humans can not run as fast as other animals. Ambush predators all have slow metabolisms, which means they need about 1/10 of the caloric intake proportional to body mass as we do. We are tool users with evolved brains and binocular vison; we humans were designed to make and use projectile weapons.

          • Joseph

            I can’t think of any vertebrate predators that don’t have binocular vision. Mammals of similar mass will have very similar metabolism because the biochemical mechanism is the same. For example, cats are ambush predators, dogs chase predators. The difference in physiology is that dogs have great endurance, cats have high burst-speed but gram for gram their metabolism will be very similar and they will consume similar amounts of food.

            “FourFooted” simply does not like hunting (at least among humans) for some moral reason but finds killing of humans more acceptable. (?)

  • Good to see the color of crime perspective makes its way into “respectable” conservative publications.

  • Jerrybear

    I saw a rerun of Bowling for Colombine running on Al Gore’s network and Michael Moore could just not figure out why the city of Windsor, Canada, located across the river from Detroit, had virtually no murder rate while Detroit is one of the murder capitols of the world. The answer is very simple to someone who isn’t brainwashed with diversity thought control. Blacks.

    • Ulick

      If Michael Moore said that obvious truth (the very reason why he moved out of Flint) he would become persona non grata to his fan base. The anti-capitalist Moore would then no longer be able to make millions, and he couldn’t have that, could he?

      • kjh64

        “I saw a rerun of Bowling for Colombine running on Al Gore’s network and Michael Moore could just not figure out why the city of Windsor, Canada, located across the river from Detroit, had virtually no murder rate”
        They know exactly why Detroit has a much higher murder rate, so does everyone else in America. It’s that 800 pound elephant in the room nobody will talk about.

        • Liberalsuck

          Why, yes! I know why Detroit, East St. Louis, South Boston, South Memphis, Five Points Denver, Chicago, Inglewood, Compton and such all are full of crime. It’s because of “liberalism” and “lack of opportunity.” (Sarcasm off)

          • eavesmac

            Don’t forget the ninth ward, and new orleans east in there.

          • Morris Thecat

            South Boston is not full of Crime. South Boston used to be an Irish area. It then became popular with yuppies. The crime riddled areaa around Boston are Dorchester, which is black, Jamaica plain, which was Black but is now more Hispanic ,and Roxbury which is black, although some sections are also being gentrified.

        • Joseph

          “It’s that 800 pound elephant in the room nobody will talk about.”

          I saw her at Walmart last year checking out with a cartload of flip-flops and snackfood paid for with food-coupons.

    • So CAL Snowman

      Would that be the “Current” network? If so check this out, Current was just sold to Al – Jazeera. How nice of dear Al Gore to give them a nice toe hold in America.

      • Paul

        If this is true it’s actually good. Now we actually have a network owned by a different race than own all the rest.

        • RisingReich

          Somehow I wouldnt count on it

      • Tucker

        Al-Jareera, or any other foreign owned news or television network that is NOT under the iron-fisted, virulent, poisonous, subversive, anti-White, anti-Traditional White American values of the despicably evil and hate-filled gang of Cultural Marxists who own 99.99% of the mainstream media in literally every White Western nation – is a big plus, Mr. Snowman.

        Anyone with at least two functioning brain cells in their heads can come a lot closer to getting a little truth and honest reporting from RT or even Press TV than ANY of the other mainstream networks, and that is why the msm is undergoing a collapse in their viewership.

        • Pat

          My husband and I watch RT here in the U.K. now and again. You hear news items from around the world that your own media never report. There is still a bit of anti western/anti American propaganda, but in all fairness we do the same to them. It is always interesting to see yourself as others see you. Having said all this I do notice that they are now, even in Moscow, taking on a P.C. attitude, requisite number of non white reporters, etc.

          • Liberalsuck

            I watch RT a lot online. I just hope they are not going to swallow the PC pill that other white countries have. They are the last bastion of prowhite strong Europeans on the face of the earth.

          • Joseph

            I watch frequently for the same reason and came to the same conclusions.

          • SintiriNikos

            I believe Matthew Heimbach, the young man who started a White student union at Towson University was interviewed twice on RT by aggressive, anti-White hosts, one of whom was black.

        • EndTimesComing

          Al Jazeera does NOT report the same way in Arabic that they do in European languages when they gain a toe hold in those countries. They put out propaganda and anti-white, anti-christian and anti-European hate speech just as much – worse as a matter of fact – than even the MSM. The MSM has not called for the deaths of all those who disagree with them (yet anyway). They tone it down quite a bit when their target audience is European derived nations. They want to capture interest and want to appear as if they are “like us” as to religious tolerance, as to democratic beliefs, and as to fairness. They aren’t. Not in the countries that speak Arabic. They preach quite a different doctrine in those countries. Allowing Al Jazeera a platform in democratic countries is no more a plus than allowing Pravda a platform when under the Soviets and monitored by the KGB. I DO agree that the MSM is nothing but a propaganda arm of the leftist, white hating, socialist cabal however. Every word coming out of the mouths of the talking head puppets has an agenda.

          • ATBOTL

            You speak Arabic?

    • FourFooted_Messiah

      I am originally from Windsor, Ontario. I lived there from birth to the age of 29, with two years on two different stints of living in Toronto in the 1980s (1984-85, and again in 1988).

      While I lived there, Windsor’s worst year for murder was 7, mostly with knives, this at a time when Detroit was known as “Murder Capitol of the US”. One of those murders that year was of a baby – white couple, white baby, they killed their kid and tried to blame it on intruders. Turned out they threw the kid into the Detroit River themselves (it has a wicked undertow, and can kill anyone. A second cousin of my grandmother had a retarded kid who married another retard, and their severly retarded progeny once threw a five year old girl into the river. She died, the profound retard got off because he was retarded, and his only defence was “It was a funny joke”. I do not like the mentally handicapped at all, for this family shame, quite frankly, and this is why I advocate treating them just like humans in general treat “problem” animals, and for the exact same reason (“they can never know any better”. Well, if that’s so, then put the retards down just like you’d put a mad pit bull down rather than trying to reform it – as reforming a retard would be a bigger waste of time than trying to reform a pit bull – the dog might actually succeed, but the human can never because of its ape-like mentality – and we all know what apes are like. Yuck.)

      We had some blacks in Windsor, sure. Most of them were American transplants from the days of the Underground Railroad, but we’d also get crime – mega crime – from Detroit blacks. It used to be that a chain company, like Mac’s or Becker’s and 7-11 (didn’t get that American chain until the late 1980s) could have just one worker on at night. But one night, some black Detroiter came and raped some clerk, and ran her over several times in the parking lot, killing her. New law – all overnight workers have to work in pairs – came out right after that.

      I myself was mugged by black Detroiters. I know it was Americans, because my passport (and nothing else) was found by some mentally-challenged kid near the tunnel entrance. The kid kept my passport for more than a year until his handler noticed he had what was not his. I had already long replaced it by then, and am now under warning that if I lose another passport, I can never get another.

      Detroit was a Windsorite’s boon and bane. A lot of our most violent crime came from its citizens, but Detroit was always where we in Windsor were able to enjoy things like hockey, baseball and live performances, as well as shopping for things we couldn’t get in Canada (especially before certain import laws were weakened, much to our detriment. I would rather see Baby Ruths be made here, than either be imported or smuggled) as well as getting around stupid levels of taxation (there’s no reason that tobacco tax is more than the cost of the tobacco itself, except for stupid sheep bleaters complaining about it coz they don’t want their nasty little children breathing smoke.)

      Windsor is a crud city, homicide levels or not. You can’t get a job there if you don’t have a car, because the bus system is garbage (and they won’t hire you even if you live FOUR BLOCKS AWAY!) Frankly, I hate it, hate it, hate it.

      As far as Mikey Moore goes, well, you saw that movie – do you REALLY think people in Toronto the used-to-be-good-until-mass-third-world-immigration don’t lock their doors? If you do, you’re just as big a fool as he is.

  • steve778

    Here in the UK the Scottish murder rate is more than twice the English murder rate despite Scotland being about 2 percent non white as opposed to 16 percent in England. I believe a similarly high murder rate exists in Appalachian areas of the US like Kentucky and West Virginia. Some white cultures do appear more prone to violence than others.

    • kjh64

      I’ve noticed that too. I’ve noticed that “Scandinavian Americans” tend to have lower crime and violence rates than some other groups of White Americans.

      • JohnEngelman

        That may be because during the Viking raids the aggressive males left for the raiding ventures and either got killed or settled elsewhere, while the peaceful males remained home to tend the farm.

        • Formerly_Known_as_Whiteplight

          I’ve sometimes thought that myself. It seems that the ones that had adventure in them, were willing to take risks, etc., left behind the ones that were too timid and they became these self-hating, drunken Christian socialists we see today. Just watched “The Seventh Seal” the other day again. Recommended as a double feature along with “Haxan,” a silent film from 1924 about the supposed witch infestations in medieval Scandinavia (and elsewhere).

          On the other hand, that theory would pertain to most Europeans that left for the unknown pretty much up to the beginning of the 20th century, with the bravest being the earliest. I have a genealogical work called, The Norman People in North America. It turns out that most of the English settlers were of Norman background, not Anglo-Saxon. So there is something to the Nordic idea in general. I even consider that the Scandinavians long knew of land to the West, perhaps from a pre-ice age memory (there is certainly plenty of folk myth and lore about a magical land to the West in most Celtic and Scandinavian folk traditions). The oceans were far lower then and recently evidence has been found that Europeans had crossed and settled in North America in that time, perhaps even pre-dating the famous Asian-Mongolian migrations. The Vikings may have simply remembered best.

          It is also true that they had just had a warming time and the population expanded so much that new settlements were necessary. This led to the raids that led to colonizations with Dublin, York, and Normandy among the most well known of many more, including Iceland, Greenland and the Vinland colony. But they also took over in Sicily for a while. The Norse as Vikings certainly did break out and change the world greatly.

          • JohnEngelman

            I’ve sometimes thought that myself. It seems that the ones that had adventure in them, were willing to take risks, etc., left behind the ones that were too timid and they became these self-hating, drunken Christian socialists we see today.

            – Formerly_Known_as_Whiteplight

            The descendants of the Scandinavians who had the sense and moral integrity to prefer farm work to raiding undefended convents and monasteries have created excellent societies.

            The Scandinavian countries retain AAA ratings with Standard & Poor’s and Moody’s.


            They have less public debt as a percentage of gross domestic product than the United States.


            They have lower unemployment rates than the United States.


            Their murder rates are much lower.


          • Formerly_Known_as_Whiteplight

            That’s debatable. The employment rate is the easiest to dispose of; the U.S. has larger common borders and a historically easier work visa applications system, but we also are famous for illegals working here. I have even met a few illegal Scandinavian workers here as well as other Europeans. When I was 20, my Norwegian grandmother was trying to arrange a job for me for a while at her brother’s print shop in Skein, where I hoped to work before traveling Europe. I was a member of Sons of Norway and everything else. But Norway was having an economic slow down and I was told I could not have a work visa at the embassy. Today’s situation in Norway is largely due to the oil deposits they found whose wealth is spread over a far smaller population than the U.S.

            While it is true that the Scandinavians who stayed behind built very good civilizations, the Viking settled regions did also, including the regions of America where they settled, but the late comers were timid, often victims of Indian raids, long-suffering and the types that today in Minnesota can’t admit that implanting a bunch of Somalians among them was a bad idea, or the differences in crimes rates (here or Norway, Sweden, etc.). But the steadiness, the traditions of being honorable in business and life in general actually come from the pre-Christian Norse culture, which Vikings were a big part of; oath keeping and such, whereas in the rest of Europe the Jews were the most trustworthy, more than Christians (that’s why higher education, banking, and trade (precious stones – jewels) were in the more reliable hands than Christians – they also had a less forgiving “god” to answer to than Christians). Also, the Christians exaggerated the Viking raids. Today’s historians actually see what was going on as a Scandinavian expansion as most of them settled in the regions they first “raided.” The Pope at least found the “Viking” Normans useful as “holy warriors” harnessing them for the initial punch of Crusades as the leading and largest contingents of the first two Crusades were Normans.

            But let’s look at it closer; I told you that the Normans were the largest group of people settling North America and the society it created is possibly, at least until recently, the one that brought the world the most progress and protected the old world, including Scandinavia. Also, and I thought that you were going to call me on it, but in the 10th century, a famous Viking, the one that established Iceland and Greenland colonies, Eric the Red, converted to Christianity. Next, the Viking raiders that raided monasteries had guides; the people from which they had collected up all the valuables they held there and took local tribute (as faith-forced donations). The Vikings were merely stealing from the invaders that had used a foreign religion to rob the local people, who melded in with the Vikings fairly readily. AND as I mentioned the Vikings founded some of the most important, significant cities and regions.

            The problem of Christianizing the Scandinavians is that they do everything so absolutely, and so today, they would rather die than admit their social-Christian civilizations are a failure where their own survival is concerned, and they are. Some of us (that’s right, I’m a fully genealogically traced Norman) haven’t let ourselves forget who we really are, and even as Rudyard Kipling wrote, “The Awakened Saxon,” it applies to Normans and Norse in general as well as all Celtic, Germanic peoples. When they all wake up, things will change. Some of that is beginning right now. But that whites in general and Scandinavians perhaps in particular are the best at having peace among themselves is something I agree with completely.

      • Morris Thecat

        The behavior of modern Scandinavians is much different than the supposed behavior of their ancestors, the Vikings. Yet, when one thinks about it, the vikings were mostly violent towards those outside their group, in far off lands. They aren’t known for inter group violence.

        • Sean

          Viking was a job description, not a people. The Norse as a whole have generally been somewhat passive compared with many other European peoples.

          • Formerly_Known_as_Whiteplight

            Right, Viking really means “raider,” but “raider” is a noun (even though it can also be translated as a verb as in “raiding”) and some other groups of aggressive people in history have such titles too.

        • Formerly_Known_as_Whiteplight

          Well, if you read the sagas, you will find that fighting one another was a kind of sport and quite bloody. The later tradition of the knight’s joust or contest as the defined verdict for God’s judgement came from the earlier Norse tradition of trial by combat. Also, the oath was from the Viking/Norse codes of honor from which there was no release or forgiveness. And handshake was your word and this held up until very recently, even in some places in America, when ethics in general pretty much disappeared.

    • Paul

      I find this hard to believe, link to some proof?

      • Yeah, it’s pretty painful to admit. I’m Scottish myself. Here is an article that tries to attach the murder rate to drinking/drugs in Scotland:

        As of the 2011 census, Scotland is about 97% White–

        Bitter pill to swallow, since Scots are amazing people. I wish we covered the planet

        • But I doubt I’d fear walking down the streets of Edinburgh at night simply because Scottish whites murder at twice the rate of Anglo-Saxon whites.

          • No reason to, since it’s still nothing compared to black/azteca murder rates.

          • toldev

            Yes, you also have to consider that whites and blacks tend to commit murder for different reasons. Blacks tend to commit murder during a robbery or over “dissin'”. If a white commits murder, it usually a situation like a man catching his wife in bed with another man.

          • Tucker

            “If a white commits murder, it usually a situation like a man catching his wife in bed with another man.”

            Now, there is a really stupid reason to commit murder. A better response would be to have a sign painted up that read: ‘Whore House For Sale’ and post it in the front yard.

          • You’re begging for a useful discussion. Why do we treat second degree murder more lightly than first degree murder? To me, they’re just as bad, because a murder that’s a result of the murderer being unable to control his visceral passion and emotion is just as bad as a murder that is a result of the murder planning his murder; the vics in both are just as dead. After all, with my “sparking” personality and all, it’s not beyond the realm of personality that I could say the wrong word and someone would want to kill me in earnest for it. (Which is why I’m not snarky with people I don’t know.) Meanwhile, I can’t think of any reason why one would want me dead right now such that he or she is pre-planning my murder. (She forgave me for that, really. I could tell from her tone of voice. I know I shouldn’t have told her that I didn’t love her because there was no such thing as love then called her father a dufus, while being shacked up with her in her father’s house.)

          • Remington

            You need to learn more about the full spectrum of human emotions (men aren’t women and vice versa) and familiarize yourself with the terms “premeditated” vs. “impulsive” which you obviously do not understand. We aren’t always sitting tranquilly at our desk, and you’d be surprised what many normal people end up doing based on the situation.

            Stanford Prison Experiment:


          • I think I know the difference between premeditated and impulsive, from both a vernacular and a legal standpoint. And I don’t think the Stanford Prison Experiment is that relevant to the discussion I’m begging.

          • Morris Thecat

            The reason many white men kill is because the wives are leaving him with the children. The state has laws that always are on the women’s side. A woman can destroy a man just because she “fell out of love”.

          • saxonsun

            A man defending killer males-who woulda thunk?!

          • toldev

            That was not really my point. I was trying to say that when whites do commit murder, it is usually over a domestic situation or maybe a situation where two coworkers have been grating on each others nerves for years. In other words, it is pretty predictable and that is the reason why it is usually always safe to walk around all white neighborhood. In black neighborhood, the situation is completely different. Blacks will murder just to steal a pair of used tennis shoes.

          • kjh64

            Killings don’t occur usually because of the children, though some men and women have killed their ex over custody.. Most men who kill their estranged wives do so because they are violent jerks whose wives left them because they were violent or controlling jerks and they kill them because well, they are violent jerks ie. if-I-can’t-have-her-nobody-will. Most women who kill their hubbies usually do so for insurance money ie.-take-out-one-million-and-make-it-look-like-an-accident. Insurance plays a big role for men in killings too. As far as ruining lives, plenty of women have had their lives destroyed because a man fell out of love or ran off with some else leaving them a single parent with kids to support and no child support so that train goes both ways.

          • Formerly_Known_as_Whiteplight

            Don’t agree with the explanation for single mothers. Feminists encouraged women to be combative in relationships and told them over and over that single motherhood was a good option and even that fathers were not necessary. Over my lifetime career as a doctor I saw such case results often> i saw so much; I knew a woman with a bridal business. She told me so many stories of how the brides to be would joke about their future husband’s money and how quick they’d leave if it ran out. Looks to me like after 5-7 years if things aren’t to their liking, most women know they can divorce and come out on top with half of everything and get to torture the man with the kids, etc. Also, a woman can call police any time and just complain of domestic violence and get the man arrested or at least into court and affect his life and career hugely this way – as well as his psyche. This has been done to a huge degree, which is why even charges of sexual harassment requires a witness testimony and some proof. Women often abuse the law, and that is the biggest problem for law enforcement that wants to protect everyone’s rights.

          • shmo123

            I’ve been to Edinburgh twice, walked everywhere at any time and never felt uncomfortable in the least. From what I could tell, it’s a beautiful and safe city.

        • Morris Thecat


      • 5Sardonicus

        West Virginia and Kentucky rank lower in violent crime than most other states. Kentucky is a more diverse state than West Virginia and has more violent crime than West Virginia. Here are some US government census statistics:

    • pcmustgo

      The Irish are the trash of Europe…. hate to say it. And most of our white trash is Scots-Irish…

      I’ve known so many stereotypical, simple, dumb , drunk irish-folk.

      • StillModerated

        Wrong! The Albanians are the trash of Europe, followed by the Chechens. I’d include Gypsies, but they’re just light-skinned Pakistani invaders.

    • Dixiecrat

      The murder rate in Kentucky and West Virginia are some of the lowest in the US. But then again, some folks just need killing.

      • Morris Thecat

        If one removed the statistics for Memphis, I would guess that Tennessee’s rate would be low too.

        • FourFooted_Messiah

          I once had a nice convo with a trucker from Georgia. He said Geogia was still mostly nice, except for Atlanta, about which he said “don’t go there”, several times, and backed it up with some trucker stopping in Atlanta who got all his tires stolen (yes, all 18 of them). Wasn’t sure what to think, until I saw the demographics about how many blacks there are in Atlanta.

    • whitey

      I actually live in West Virginia, and we have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the entire United States. As a side note almost everyone that I know owns at least one gun. Also this state is around 96% white, as of the last census, but most of the shootings that occur in this state actually involve black people in the more urban areas.

      • kjh64

        I use to live in a small town, bedroom community in Texas, that was mostly White though with a few Hispanics/Blacks. Almost everybody owned a gun yet the murder rate was very low, maybe one murder a year if that, and that murder was almost always two people that knew each other.

      • anonymous

        Same in parts of the Midwest, which is very white. Wichita, Kansas, for example, is a majority white city. However, the black population there is where a majority of the robberies, gang crimes and others come from. Take caution getting off the Central Exit in Wichita if you are there. Just saying.

        • EndTimesComing

          When we moved to Wisconsin, that year the only gun death was a result of a hunting accident. Previous years maybe 1 to 3 murders on average with a gun in the whole state. Come Katrina and the liberal as*hole governor Doyle moving 5000 blacks here and guess what? Murder rates are now going through the roof. Not content with that, this as*hole governor allowed Madison to declare itself a “sanctuary city”. So now we have a growing illegal population too. Which adds to the murder rate, but has now also caused a huge rise in fatal traffic deaths and hit and run accidents. You can’t get around it. Whites are civilized and generally responsible. Third world and Africans are NOT.

        • Joseph

          Kansas City, Ks. is quite dark even in daytime.

          • liberalsuck


    • FourFooted_Messiah

      I question the Scottish statistics. Links please?

      Scots are, like Irish, known to get drunk and fight for fun. But fist-fights usually don’t end in death.

      I think maybe the immigrants to Scotland might be particularly violent. So there.

      • Kblankenship7

        There is a youtube video regarding knife crime in Glasgow. i am pressed for time, but I think a lot of the crimes are with knives.

  • jtree
    Vox Day wrote about this exact subject a few weeks ago. Very interesting stuff given the constant leftist propaganda coming from the MSM about how the US is supposedly a extremely violent gun obsessed culture.

  • Luca

    Simple formula.

    Genetics + culture + environment = rate of crime/murder.

    African genetics + African-American culture + ghetto environment = A very high crime/murder rate.

    Class dismissed.

    • JohnEngelman

      Unfortunately the teacher of that class would probably get fired.

    • liberalsuck

      What? You mean a ‘lack of opportunity and poverty’ is not why these ‘youths’ commit so many crimes and why all of their neighborhoods and countries are cesspools? What a shocker.

    • Morris Thecat

      I think that formula is wrong. It seems more and more that Genetics = Culture, the environment seems irrelevant

  • APaige

    If you eliminated crimes committed by blacks and hispanics in Chicago and NY, what would be left is two of the safest urban areas in the world. In 2010 more black women were arrested for murder in Chicago than white males! There is more white people in Chicago than blacks and handguns are illegal. It is not ‘demographics’-plural, it is demographics singular.

    • YoungWoman

      “In 2010 more black women were arrested for murder in Chicago than white males!”
      Jeeeeeeeeez. That really says something. Because even the very PC will usually admit that men commit more crime than women for biological reasons. If the link between gender and crime is biological but the link between race and crime isn’t, you can’t explain that statistic.

      • FourFooted_Messiah

        The PC are lying. We women as just as bad as men, but the feminists want to twist that, too. Dirty talk? Ever been to a hen party? Violence? Ever try to get between a woman and her baby? Same as getting between a sow bear and her cub, if she feels it threatened! Even those of us who don’t have many symptoms come “that time of the month” are more easily ticked off than the rest of the time of the month. Also, give a read to Pierre Burton’s “The War of 1812”, it describes how SQUAWS were the ones in charge of dispatching prisoners who couldn’t keep up with the tribe.

        Dealing with the Northern Cree for a while, I know I’d rather make enemies of the men than the women, though I’d rather not make enemies of either.

        Also read Rudyard Kipling’s “The Female is Deadlier Than the Male”, put to music by Leslie Fish. Yeah, a male cobra will move aside as you walk down the road. A female will think you’re after her eggs, and attack.

        When the Vikings went a-raiding, who did they leave behind to defend hearth and home? The women, because old men and children aren’t of much use in a raid situation. But a healthy, mature ENRAGED woman can be a horror to face.

        Females have to mean, biologically speaking. We have families to defend, do we not? Revel in it, my sisters. While men might be cannon fodder, we are our next generation’s last defence, in the end.

        • I’m 35 years old, and I’m at the moment probably the doyen of the AR commentariat. While my powers of persuasion are rather poor — I couldn’t sell an overcoat to an Eskimo down to his skivvies in the Yukon, (this is why my business degree is in accounting, not marketing or sales), and this is why, in spite of many of you accusing me of being a lawyer, I’m not one and would have never made a good one (trial lawyers are basically salesmen with J.D.s), I do think my ability to formulate quality arguments (“arguments” not as in screaming or invective, but as in rhetoric that is free of either factual error or logical fallacy) is very good but not perfect.

          I have never won an argument with my mother. And I probably never will.

          • Michael_C_Scott

            At the age of 46, I always agree with my mother right away. I know I’m going to eventually anyway, and doing it right off saves us both so much trouble.

          • Mine would never allow me to get away with letting me forfeit. She wants the satisfaction of fighting and then winning. I can assure you that overall in her life that was far more a feature than a bug.

        • Michael_C_Scott

          “Ever try to get between a woman and her baby?’

          One of my mother’s friends unthinkingly walked on public – but leased for grazing – land between a mother cow and her calf. The cow became totally unglued and charged before romping and stomping all over the unfortunate hiker. Cows are not normally aggressive, but mammal mothers are interesting creatures.

          The only exception I can think of is the lion. Female lions do almost all of the hunting, This begs the question as to what male lions do and why they are so big. Male lions are for killing hyenas. Hyenas will mob and kill lionesses when they’re hunting, but I once watched night vision footage of a very large male lion charging into a pack of hyenas. He ended up shaking a 150-pound hyena like a terrier with a rat. Male lions also routinely drive packs of hyenas away from kills the hyenas have made.

          The mane might also be a sexual display, but the thick fur would certainly provide some protection against bites to the neck area.

          • I think the main purpose of the mane (no pun intended) is size exaggeration. Male lions sans manes really don’t look much more impressive or bigger than their female counterparts. In fact, male lion manes are the only obviously identifiable sex difference in the cat family, other than the obvious.

            The Romans generally knew that tigers almost always got the better of lions in a fight.

          • Joseph

            It is my understanding that paleolithic paintings in France clearly show male lions from about 30-40,000 yr. ago *without* a mane at all so this would be a pretty recent development.

            So far, none have been seen on the savannah wearing showercaps or house-shoes.

          • Castrated male lions don’t grow manes.

          • Joseph

            I’ve been around both and I can tell you that I’d prefer the cow to the bull.

  • archer

    About 20 years ago the media was comparing the murder rate in I think Seattle to another large city in Canada across the border. Of couse ours was much higher, the NRA devoted a few pages to the disparity. What they came up with about tenth on their listh was that if you discounted the murders commited by hispanics in Seattle the murder rate was actually lower in the U.S. than it’s Canadian counterpart.
    Just look at Chicago topping 500 murders this year, the Illinois legislature will try to ban all legal guns, but won’t go into the “ethnic” enclaves of Chicago to get even one illegal gun.

  • piers morgan sux

    Someone go tell the Piers Morgan pussyfoot the facts. Races must be separated otherwise they will blame whites for negro and other races crimes.
    And the Newtown massacre was done by an autistic sicko but the media has covered that up since it diverts from their real agenda of going after the 2nd Amendment rights and takes the heat of autistic killers.
    The Colorado theater killer was a mental nut also. Liberals of all races are mental cases and cause all violent crime.

    • Luca

      In a perfect world an honest media headline: “Mentally Disturbed Person Steals Guns and Commits an Atrocity.

      Today’s liberal MSM headline: White Man plus Guns = Mass Murder.

      • EndTimesComing

        Excellent and cogent statement. As engineers would say….elegant in its simplicity.

    • FourFooted_Messiah

      Newtown – is that the one I heard about recently? I only check the news once in a while (same as I check this place), as it makes too angry.

      Autistic, eh? Well, I guess that’s another human disorder that can be taken out of the “harmless” category.

      And I never found any follow up to the Colorado thing.

      • Michael_C_Scott

        I haven’t seen any followups on the Colorado movie theater massacre either.

        If it helps any, I have managed to place myself on “safe” when certain subjects are concerned. I will not read about crimes like the Knoxville Horror, because knowing these things makes me want to kill. I’m not sorry about that, either. I once saw a baboon troop leader take down a leopard after the leopard killed a female baboon and was dragging her off. He didn’t make any sound while he stalked the leopard, either; no threat display. He didn’t want to drive it off; he wanted to kill that big cat. Once he had it by the upper neck, he tore into the leopard with all four paws.

  • curri

    “There are no statistically significant numbers of African-American or Hispanic-Americans in Europe.”

    This guy is playing games here- there certainly are significant numbers of *blacks* in England and France. And about 500,000 Ecuadorians emigrated to Spain in the era before the current recession.

    • The blacks in England and France are not African-Americans. They come from significantly different cultures. I doubt that there is a significant population of Ecuadorian-Americans, but I can be educated on this, if you can find some data on it.

  • PesachPatriot

    Here in florida it is definitely a demographic thing. Most of the legal guns are in the white northern part of the state above orlando and are used for hunting. The majority of the gun crime(assaults, robberies, illegal firearms, home invasions) happen in the southern part of the state with its urban hellholes full of aspiring rappers and illegal immigrants from the caribbean and south america.

    The good thing is that even in south florida the majority of gun crime and violence is confined to the hoods and is usually kept far away from the delicate and tender northern liberal transplants in gated communities. Blacks are far more likely to be guilty of the particular gun crime of brandishing a weapon in public….most non-blacks with concealed carry permits and legal firearms will only display the weapon in a life or death emergency…the brothers love to wave theirs around at the strip club or if someone steps on their sneakers or gets in a fender bender with their hooptie. This is why they also have such a high rate of firearm accidents as well…

  • Bob Wallace

    In the U.S. the death rate by firearm for blacks is over 39 times the white death rate. The white death rate is slightly lower than that of Holland’s.The original gun control laws in the U.S. were meant to disarm blacks only. It was never meant to apply to whites.

    • EndTimesComing

      And when those laws existed (Jim Crow) blacks still murdered but not nearly at the rate they do now. And they NEVER dared murder, rape or otherwise commit violence against whites. Now, with this government, it’s open season on whites and the official proclamation by this evil government is that when blacks rape, torture, set on fire, make victims drink clorox, sucker punch, and commit all kinds of hate crimes on whites it’s not a hate crime. But if a white tells a black the truth about their behavior, THAT is hate speech and a hate crime. The official proclamation is that ONLY blacks can be victims of a hate crime or hate speech. Whites are fair game for blacks and can NEVER be victims of a hate crime. The current DOJ AG has stated that quite clearly.

  • Michael_C_Scott

    I was going to point out that Japanese-Americans have a murder rate about half of what the murder rate is in Japan, but toward the end, the article did it for me. The reason was not touched on, but a large part of it is that the Yakuza – organized crime – commits many of the murders in Japan, while there are essentially no Yakuza in the United States. Even Asian street gangs in the US tend to be mono-ethnically Vietnamese (eg. Asian Boyz), Hmong (eg. “Menace of Destruction”), Filippino (eg. Satanas) or Chinese (various triads).

    • FourFooted_Messiah

      I’m glad you used the word “essentially” – I did spot one in my home town once, recognizable by the sunglasses and missing finger (missing fingers are commonplace in a factory city, sure, but it isn’t usually wealthy-looking young East Asian guys with suits and briefcases who are missing digits.)

      But yeah, here in Canada, it’s the Vietnamese, Koreans, and East Indians of various stripes causing problems – and possibly Chinese Taung – moreso than, say, Japanese Yakuza.

      • Michael_C_Scott

        You were almost certainly correct if the missing digit was the little left finger.

  • The white violent crime rate is 3 per 100,000. The negro’s rate is 42 per 100,000. When foreigners call Americans stupid and violent can thank our black population