Two Myths About the SAT

Robert VerBruggen, Real Clear Policy, March 9, 2014

Since the recent announcement that major changes are coming to the SAT, I’ve seen about 10,000 articles claiming that (A) the correlation between family income and SAT scores proves that the test is biased against poor kids and (B) the SAT is easy for the rich to “game” through test prep.

There are indeed problems with the SAT, including problems relating to parental income. Here is a persuasive argument by Charles Murray that the SAT should be scrapped entirely and replaced by subject tests like the SAT II. But we shouldn’t be shocked by the simple fact that parental income is linked to children’s academic achievement, and the effects of “gaming” the SAT have been wildly exaggerated.

The problem with treating the SAT-income correlation as an argument in itself is that richer kids, fairly or unfairly, actually do have higher academic capabilities. As I’ve written before, and frankly as anyone with eyes in his head ought to know, there are numerous ways that parents can pass advantages on to their kids–genes, better schools, better neighborhoods, and so on. The simple correlation between income and scores tells us nothing at all about whether the SAT has an income bias, because it’s exactly what we would expect from a legitimate measure of academic ability.

Income gaps are evident on basically every academic measure we have. {snip}


And what about “gaming” the SAT? Well, here is a report finding that SAT prep typically raises math scores 10-20 points and reading scores 5-10 points. The standard deviation of each subtest is around 110 points, and the black/white gap is about the same. What’s more, free test-prep services are targeted toward poor and minority kids–surprisingly, black and Hispanic kids are actually more likely to use test prep, and they gain slightly more than whites from doing so (though Asians seem to gain unusually large amounts, as much as 70 points).


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  • This whole business about SAT and other testing bias was a molehill that was blown into the size of a mountain.

    It was based on the fact that on the verbal section of the SAT for a few years, well before I took it in 1994, there were questions that required you to know the general anatomy of a yacht in order to answer them correctly. Well, only one such question on some SAT tests.

    If you couldn’t get it right, so what? It’s not as if you were going to get a perfect 1600 anyway. And you getting it wrong balanced out your lucky correct guess of a question you didn’t know.

    It’s now to the point that every test everywhere is biased.

    • MikeofAges

      Actually, it didn’t require you to know the anatomy of a yacht. All the information you needed was in the reading. If you had adequate reading comprehension, you could answer the question. Smarter people get higher scores. Even in you looked within highly culturally deprived populations, the smarter people would still get the higher scores on any test you could devise.

      Here’s my own test. It’s a call the WHIP test, for White High Intelligence Profile. If you get both questions right, you are WHIP smart and probably have an I.Q. of at least 130.

      1) Which of the following is a noble gas?

      a. Rayon
      b. Pluton
      c. Neon
      d. Exxon

      2) Who was the founder of IBM?

      a. Thomas Watson
      b. Doc Watson
      c. The alligator on his shirt dude.
      d. Hank Imb of Oklahoma

      • BillMillerTime

        Charles R. Flint was the founder of IBM.

        And neon is a noble gas.

        • MikeofAges

          From the choices given, you would have to select Thomas Watson as the founder of IBM. Are you against fun, or what? Doc Watson is a musician. the “alligator on his shirt dude” is golfer tom Watson, who is the day wore a golf shirt with an alligator logo on it. Hank Ibm? You figure out that one.

          The idea, you know, is a knock off of the BITCH test, which I think of also as political theater..

        • MikeofAges

          And one more thing, based on the linearity of your response, I would have to estimate your I.Q. as 127. Either that or you have very high quantitative and mathematical skills and a lower verbal reasoning profile. Myself, I’m the other way around. I have consistently scored in the highly gifted range but my verbal reasoning far exceeds mathematical aptitude. I had three quarters of a five quarter calculus sequence. When we got the polar coordinates, that’s when I burned out.

          If you are gifted or highly gifted, when you are young you are kept around because you are decorative. When you get older, you become a subgenius, and are reviled by everybody. Most of the serious intellectual work is done by people with I.Q ‘s of 140 and higher. The bread and butter of the professional workforce, however, consists of people with I.Q’s in the 120s. The greater numbers of people in that range and the likelihood that there is little that someone in the next range, i.e gifted and highly gifted, can do that they cannot.

      • Irishgirl

        If I remember correctly (and I may not), it was an analogy question involving “regatta: yacht” compared to some other pair of words. So you’re right, you just had to know (or figure out) that a regatta is a kind of race; you didn’t have to know anything about yachts other than that they are a type of boat (duh).

        • MikeofAges

          There might be people who so deprived they have no basis for understanding certain things. Nevertheless, there are ways of measuring the intelligence of people with no test taking skills or insufficient exposure to take a test. You could at least grade people as slow, average and bright. I’ll give that the SAT might limit the scores of some disadvantaged people. But not all by any means. Most of the time, what you see is what you get, unfortunately.

          • The SAT test if for people who intend to go to college, so knowing what a yacht is can’t be a big stretch. I use my metal-cutting bandsaw for cutting wooden parts because it produces a very narrow kerf. How many people know what a kerf is?

          • MikeofAges

            Not very many. But that might a reading in which the term “kerf” was defined and used particularly good in an aptitude test.

    • Carney3

      Not only that, but why couldn’t a poor student be expected to know vocabulary words outside his immediate life experience? That’s what books are for.

      • And that goes back to my other point.

        If they want a test totally free of “bias” (even though there’s really no “bias” and never has been), then give an IQ test.

        But we know how popular and ubiquitous those are these days.

  • sbuffalonative

    I read a similar piece today that exposed the same two myth: that the test prep course only produces a small gain and that minorities are using test prep courses.

    The accusation that rich kids are buying high scores simply isn’t true.

    I’m glad we now have the facts to back this up and put these myths to rest.

    • LHathaway

      myths put to rest? The reality is that blacks and hispanics have yet anohter unfair advantate over whtie kids? Why does that please you?

  • Spartacus

    It’s all about race, not about “prep courses” . The minute you start breaking it all down by race is the minute everything becomes crystal clear .

    • CaptainCroMag

      Exactly. The poorest White students still score higher than all but the richest Black students and they’re still only under by 3 points. In other words, the smartest Blacks are barely smarter than the dumbest Whites.

      • Good research by you in coming up with the table. It shows that blacks who are barely as smart as the dumbest whites earn 10 times more than the dumbest whites. Blacks get preferential treatment while whites are discriminated against. That’s the only explanation I can think of. It’s outrageous of course that blacks who are about at the same level as whites earn 10 times more. BTW, I’ve seen this at the university. Dumb Hispanic profs paid way more than conservative white profs.

        • Jesse_from_Sweden

          Whilst affirmative action does have a role to play in this, the biggest reason is probably far easier.

          Namely regression toward the mean.
          Smart parents will have smart kids, but usually they aren’t quite as smart as their parents, but will be a little more towards the mean score for that group.
          Same goes in the other direction for dumb parents and their kids.

          So while there may be that the parents of these kids actually had the same SAT scores (the white and the black parents that is) and that is what decided their income level, then that would mean that the kids to the smart black parents will drop further than the kids to the white smart parents, simply because the black mean is lower than the white.

      • 1stworlder

        That’s so obvious even a leftist could get it.

      • Edruezzi

        The question remains: how did these differences develop, if they are genetic?

        • Bon, From the Land of Babble

          How about different environmental pressures?

          Obviously survival in the cold reaches of Northern Europe was a difficult task. One had to plan and prepare for long stretches of dark, freezing weather where food was scarce for months at a time.

          Survival meant one must have foresight, as in enough storing food for the long, cold months, arming oneself against marauders, clothing oneself and loved ones appropriately and building a proper shelter from the harsh elements.

          Mother Nature is a merciless b****; she is also selective, the weak and unintelligent did not survive.

          Professor Rushton wrote:

          As early humans migrated out of Africa they encountered the cognitively demanding problem of having to survive cold winters where there were no plant foods and they had to hunt, sometimes big game. They also had to solve the problem of keeping warm. This required greater intelligence than was needed in tropical and semi-tropical equatorial Africa where plant foods are plentiful throughout the year. Lynn shows that race differences in brain size and intelligence are both closely associated with low winter temperatures in the regions they inhabit. He gives a figure of 1,282 cc for the average brain size of sub-Saharan Africans, as compared with 1,367 cc for Europeans and 1,416 cc for East Asians.

          http //www vdare com/articles/winters-are-good-for-your-genes-lynn-book-finds-world-average-iq-90-declining-from-north-to

          • Early humans in Eurasia also interbred with neanderthals, and they had larger brains than we do. Both caucasian whites and east Asians have neanderthal traits, but different ones.

          • JohnEngelman

            The develop of urban civilization was also important. This began in the Near East five thousand years ago, and in what is now China about a thousand years later.

            In an urban civilization intelligent men tend to become merchants, government officials, money lenders, artists, and so on. These become more prosperous than laborers, so they have more descendants.

          • They also have more descendants that live.

          • JohnEngelman

            That is why I refer to descendants, rather than children. Having a lot of children who die of malnutrition and disease does not change the direction of human evolution.

        • saxonsun

          It’s important to research this question. It is, however, more important to simply accept that differences did develop and that whites must act on those differences or perish.

      • Puggg

        I noticed the total black gap was 183, the total white gap was 152, meaning the income gap is larger among blacks than whites. And that the biggest gap within an income scale is the lowest. The only thing I take that to mean is that dumb blacks are really dumb, box of rocks dumb.

      • LHathaway

        well. . the trick is clearly to raise the income of all blacks above $200,000. Then they will be able to fairly compete with whites who’s family incomes are below $20,000.

        I try to be the racist here who says as many unracist things as possible. . but there you go. . I said something very racist. .

  • Groovy

    In simple words, it’s not being rich that makes one smart, it’s being smart that makes one rich.

  • SouthernReality

    Well, the idiots can continue to parse the issues but here’s the bottom line: A Shetland pony will never win the Kentucky Derby running against Thoroughbreds. A housecat will not outrun a cheetah. Ta-da! Discussion over!!!

    • Edruezzi

      Invalid analogy. Shetlands and thoroughbreds are the result of deliberate selective breeding by humans. Cheetahs and housecats last shared an ancestor millions of years ago. Africans and Europeans have been separated for 80,000 years at the most.

      • That 80,000 years is approximately 4,000 generations; a non-trivial timespan given the very different environmental pressures involved. Whites, orientals and some Amerinds had to keep their children alive through harsh winters.

        • Edruezzi

          The only test the harsh winters hypothesis requires is this:
          1. What exactly was required for survival in these conditions?
          2. Did it require high intelligence?
          3. If so, could a modern black or Aboriginal or Polynesian person do these things, assuming that their IQs stood still because they lived in a tropical climate where, to paraphrase some posters here, they could run naked from tree to tree and pluck low-hanging fruit to feed themselves?

          • It required high intelligence and a very high degree of cooperation. This meant lots and lots of mutual trust.

      • JohnEngelman

        The central insight of Charles Darwin was that natural selection had the same effect as “deliberate selective breeding by humans.” Different animals have different innate characteristics. Some of these characteristics enable those who have them to have more descendants.

        In a paleolithic and a neolithic environment all men participate in war. The best warriors have more than one wife, and more sons who inherit their violent inclinations and skills.

        When civilization begins the military becomes one of several specialties. Most men never participate in war. Men who do participate in war have lower life expectancies than those who do not. Historically most have not been able to raise families.

        Intelligent men became more prosperous than unintelligent men. Consequently, intelligent men had more descendants.

        This is one of the reasons whites and Orientals tend to be more intelligent and less violent than Negroes. Another reason is that it takes more intelligence to survive in a cold climate.

        • Edruezzi

          Here we go:
          “The best warriors have more than one wife, and more sons who inherit their violent inclinations and skills.”:
          Invalid, wholly or at least partly. The best farmers also have more than one wife. Read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe, or even The Negro in Negroland by an elite group of European explorers. There’s a chief or king mentioned on virtually every page.

          “When civilization begins the military becomes one of several specialties. Most men never participate in war.”
          What about the selective service system and conscription and the draft in World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam? What about the citizen soldiers of ancient Greece?

          I have contested this point with you repeatedly. This is like arguing with a robot but I’ll say it again. There is no evidence that intelligent men have had more descendants in “civilization”. Overall, the men best able to raise a crop year after year and keep the animals in the barnyard alive have contributed the most genes to civilizations.

          There is simply no indication that it takes more intelligence to survive in a cold climate. The ability to resist frostbite helps, though.
          I think it was either Rushton or Jensen who said hunting in the open plains of Europe was harder than hunting in the forests of Africa. What kind of argument is that? It’s based on Tarzan movies. Most of Africa is one vast open plain. Mssrs, Rushton and Jensen glided past that difficulty when a look at a map would have corrected them.

          • Edruezzi

            I missed the stuff about natural selection. Darwin was right about the similarity of natural selection and selective breeding but they are still very different. The human breeder has a goal in mind and he chooses which animals can mate and he assigns the other to celibacy, or the cooking pot. Natural selection on the other hand has no goals in mind and can have no goals in mind, and depends on a changeable environment. The evolution of the horse family indicates this. The environment can change and does. Looked at from that perspective, if Europeans differ so radically from tropically adapted people we would have to isolate a factor that was constant over thousands of years to limit their breeding and impose a selective gradient. Only cold weather qualifies. But I have already shown that cold weather is not what it’s cracked up to be. Was building winter-proof huts or making stone-age parkas or mittens so demanding on the IQ?

          • JohnEngelman

            There is no evidence that intelligent men have had more descendants in “civilization”.

            – Edruezzi

            Then why do the two civilized races have higher IQ averages than Negroes?

  • bear grylls

    Actually I saw one of those sylvan learning centers and it was full of middle easterners.Now try to get the average white kid who is getting decent grades to spend saturday in school.I think the trauma would not be worth the increase in grades.

  • Asians are crammers and scammers. I seriously doubt their “superior” performance on standardized tests is real. In my university classrooms, over the years, the Asians may have crammed, but economics is a subject where cramming doesn’t work. And they couldn’t scam because we monitored the test takers carefully. Asians were among the worst performers in economics. Of course, blacks were at the bottom, as usual.

    • Tarczan

      That’s because you be raciss, and discriminate de pooh darkies.

    • Daniel Schmuhl

      Listen dude, I like some of your posts but your political biases are starting to cloud your thinking and your beginning to sound like Storm front poster who parrots ideological dogma. Yes, there is some scheming here and there. And yes, Asians cram a lot.

      The simple fact of the matter is that East Asians do score higher on standardized tests. They also have a higher average IQ than do whites.

      • DieWulfe

        Which Whites are you referring to? Individual European countries or all Whites grouped together? Two European ethnicities are smarter than Asians.

        • Daniel Schmuhl

          You’re probably talking about Germany and the Netherlands, more recent data shows a lower average IQ. If you look IQ and the Wealth of Nations. More recent data by Lynn and Vanhannen in their book, Intellugence: AA Unifying Construct for the Social Sciences, shows lower average IQs. 100.4 for the Netherlands and 98.8 for Germany.

          • DieWulfe

            Latest from the European League of IQ’s. From Lynn who compiled the scores himself. 2008 – 2009, if I recall correctly. Might be a year earlier.

            Lynn – 107-109
            Studies done by Bui using the same test on all participants. 110.

            Flynn – 111.

            Wealth of Nations? Including immigrants? That’s why nation scores are lower.

      • Bon, From the Land of Babble

        The fact that this world is still completely dominated by White Western Civilization and White technology prove that IQ isn’t obviously everything.

        IQ tests don’t measure ingenuity, imagination, talent, vision, dexterity, resilience, courage, desire, motivation, independence, self-control, honesty, etc which are all genetic traits and qualities that Whites overwhelming possess over Jews, Asians, Hispanics and blacks.

        Whites have it all and we are the most BALANCED race intellectually, manually and physically. That’s why we’re on top, regardless of how some have an higher median IQ.

        We Whites have a higher smart faction as a percentage of our population than Asian — and it is this smart faction that innovates and creates technological and medical breakthroughs and drives civilization forward.

        • Daniel Schmuhl

          And most of those things you listed are far from proven. There is some evidence that whites are superior in terms of creativity and individualism, but it’s far from proven.

          The old canard that Asians have less variation in IQ is spread around in white nationalist circles but is largely unsupported. Steve Hsu looked at PISA scores and didn’t find anything.

          • Bon, From the Land of Babble

            The empirical evidence is all around us despite what you or anti-White Steve Hsu has to say.

            Whites not Asians put a man on the moon. You are using a White language, not an Asian one and White technology in your lame attempt to degrade and denigrate the White race. It is Asians who fall all over themselves to live in White-created lands like the U.S., Australia and England — why is that? Is it because we Whites created better societies than those created by Asians?

            Why don’t you give up everything White created for a day and see how it goes — the English language, you cell phone, car, computer, electricity, refrigeration, White-created meds like anti-biotics and vaccinations, television and millions of other tech miracles that were innovated by Whites and gifted to you and the rest of the world.

            We Whites have given the world technology and medical breakthroughs and what do we get in return from anti-Whites? You and every other anti-White and non-White should be thanking us but instead we get impudence and childishness.

          • JohnEngelman

            Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it’s 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

            Top schools that don’t ask about race in admissions process have very high percentages of Asian students. The California Institute of Technology, a private school that chooses not to consider race, is about one-third Asian. (Thirteen percent of California residents have Asian heritage.) The University of California-Berkeley, which is forbidden by state law to consider race in admissions, is more than 40 percent Asian–up from about 20 percent before the law was passed.

          • Mergatroyd

            Don’t forget, Engelman, to tell everyone here how you think whites and their children should be race-replaced by Asians.

            — The thought of you losing your job to a more intelligent Jew or Oriental is pleasing to me. As time goes on there will be more of that.

            –John Engelman

            h/t Celestial Time.

            You are an anti-white troll pushing white genocide and everyone here knows it.

          • JohnEngelman

            I was wondering when you would show up.

          • anew

            Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410….

            The test scores of admitted students hardly matter her and it must be that Espenshade based his conclusion on the SAT scores of admitted students, because relative to their share of elite-performing high school students, whites are way more unrepresented at elite colleges than are Asians. Based on these figures, whites should be 76% of students at second-tier top schools like Michigan, Notre Dame, Virginia, Vanderbilt, Brown, and Asians should be 15%, but the actual numbers are more like 60% and 10-15%, and where the Asian number is lower, it is because it is a public school of a state with a low Asian population.

            Based on the same reasoning, whites should be around 2/3 of students in the Ivy League, Duke, Chicago, Stanford, and Asians 25-30%, and Jews should get 6%. The actual numbers are 45-55% for whites and 20% for Asians, so whites and Asians appear to be getting screwed about equally here. But these numbers count Jews as white, and the Jews are getting way more than their fair share. Ron Unz, I’m sure you know, calculated that Jews were getting 400% more seats at these schools relative to their share of top high-school students, while Asians get 65% of their share and white gentiles get only 24% of their earned share.

            Now, I’m willing to concede that Unz probably over-estimated the Jewish share, at least at Harvard. I know this is not the most precise method, but… a few years ago I watched Michael Sandel’s philosophy/justice course online, and since about 1 out 6 undergraduates are in his class, they must be a fairly representative sample, and it sure didn’t look like any where near half the whites there were Jewish. More scientifically, a few months ago Harvard released the results of a survey of its incoming freshmen class, which over 80% completed. 60% said they were white, but there was no multiracial option, so the numbers added up to well over 100%, and the non-whites add up to 52.3%, so the true white percentage is probably a little over half, and Asians (including Indians) are close to the 30% they “deserve.” On the survey, 9.5% say their religion is Judaism. Perhaps another 2-3% are ethnically Jewish. That’s not near as high as Unz claims, but it’s still twice as high as they deserve. And it leaves us white gentiles at only around 40% of the student body, when we deserve to be 2/3.

            Based on your logic, we should outnumber Jews at Harvard by over 10-1, and Asians by over 2-1, but we only outnumber them by 4-1 and 4/3. Whites are the ones getting screwed here, not Asians.

          • JohnEngelman

            Whites and Orientals are being discriminated against by affirmative action policies.

          • LHathaway

            I tend to be a conspiracy theoriets. . so. . how do you know chinese, or monks, or indians, or even blacks. . how do you know They didn’t invent the technology behind most of those thing but have allowed whites to get the credit for them?

          • Bon, From the Land of Babble

            Charles Murray says otherwise.

          • JohnEngelman

            Quote him. This is what Charles Murray says about Jews:

            “Insofar as I am suggesting that the Jews may have had some degree of unusual verbal skills going back to the time of Moses, I am naked before the evolutionary psychologists’ ultimate challenge. Why should one particular tribe at the time of Moses, living in the same environment as other nomadic and agricultural peoples of the Middle East, have already evolved elevated intelligence when the others did not?

            “At this point, I take sanctuary in my remaining hypothesis, uniquely parsimonious and happily irrefutable. The Jews are God’s chosen people.”

          • JohnEngelman
          • Mergatroyd

            More anti-whitism from Engelman:

            — Get used to it. In the future inter racial marriage will be even more common.

            — History is moving against you. America is becoming more multi racial, more multi ethnic, and more meritocratic. There is nothing white nationalists can do about. One gets places in politics by getting in front of popular issues. One does not get places by fighting for lost causes.

            –John Engelman

            You desire a world without whites in it and believe Asians and Jews should take over white homelands and displace the white race.

            That makes you no better than a Hitler who desired a land without Jews. That makes you a monster.

          • JohnEngelman

            You desire a world, or at least a country in which there are affirmative action policies that favor white Gentiles over Orientals and Jews. I am opposed to affirmative action.

          • Edruezzi

            It would take extraordinary saltations and discontinuities in the relevant mathematical variables for the greater white IQ spread than that of Asians to show up in a way most people would notice. If it is genetic then a theory that explains how it evolved would be an instant classic.
            There is no such theory. No attempt has been made to devise one. What we see are graphs bandied about and so on.

        • Bon, you might want to repost these in future discussions. They deserve wide viewing. I’m going to save them for my own use.

          • Bon, From the Land of Babble

            I’ve reposted them endlessly, along with the quotes from Charles Murray– doesn’t matter, we’ll still get the Asian supremacists on here (and elsewhere) who claim it’s all untrue and Murray, Rushton and Jensen are charlatans, LOL — right before they start up with the same, tired, face-saving ad hominem attacks.

            It is a direct assault on White culture, civilization and heritage.

          • Flanders21

            Good job Bon…too bad this site dosen’t allow the posting of links.There is a great video i have posted several times when ever the question of Asian I.Q. comes up as well…Its David Dukes response to Richard Lynn in the better days of AR.

          • JohnEngelman

            Some people are so afraid, of say, the Asians taking over in this country. Well if they can take over and do a better job than the rest of us, if they preserve the great things of both Western and Asian civilization, well I don’t think the world will be worse off. Race and color and national origin and that sort of thing, don’t really matter much to me at all. I’ve just never thought along those lines.

            – Arthur Jensen

            IQ tests measure intelligence and predict real life success. The races differ in brain size and on IQ tests. On average Orientals
            have the largest brains and highest IQs.

            – Professor J. Philippe Rushton

            Wherever you look, Asians outperform whites academically and financially…

            we have a considerably less than one standard deviation difference between Asian IQ — North Asian IQ — and white IQ. I think that, too, is a result of genetics, and I think that that is what explains the dominance of Asians in certain fields, and their lower rates of illegitimacy compared to whites, their lower crime rates, their better achievement in school, their higher average incomes…

            I think Asians are objectively superior to whites by just about any measure that you can come up with in terms of what are the ingredients for a successful society.

            – Jared Taylor

        • Edruezzi

          “IQ tests don’t measure ingenuity, imagination, talent, vision, dexterity, resilience, courage, desire, motivation, independence, self-control, honesty, etc which are all genetic traits and qualities that Whites overwhelming possess over Jews, Asians, Hispanics and blacks.”
          That’s quite a list. Really impressive. Since natural selection alone moves gene frequencies I leave it to you as an exercise to tell us, if you choose, how selection could have produced different values of ingenuity, imagination, talent, intuition, vision, dexterity, honesty and so on in Europe relative to Africa or the regions of the Middle East where Jews originated.
          Only a god could have done that kind of work.

          • Bon, From the Land of Babble

            Re-read my post and then maybe you’ll understand it.

        • JohnEngelman

          Your contrasting bell curves do not explain why Orientals are present in America’s best universities in percentages far out of proportion to their numbers in the population.

          • Hard work on their part.

          • JohnEngelman

            Orientals do not compete fairly. They are too intelligent, and they work too hard.

          • I am too intelligent, but I loathe working for someone else.

          • JohnEngelman

            Over the years I have learned that the single most important factor in a job is a good relationship with your immediate supervisor. If you and your boss genuinely like and respect each other, you are way ahead of the game.

            This is easier to achieve with some bosses than with others. Some people for psychological reasons should not have power over others. Unfortunately, those people are often motivated to get power over others.

            Some bosses have difficulty making friends. They expect their subordinates to provide for them social satisfactions they cannot get on their own.

            Once I had a boss whose attitude was that the people reporting to him were capable of doing a good job, they wanted to do a good job, and it was his job to make it easier for them to perform well. One can get spoiled with a boss like that. Unfortunately, he got a better job with another company.

          • My favorite boss was Howard Short. He was a dentist, but owned some Subway restaurants, and making sandwiches was the only work I could find after my release from federal prison. Back in the days when I worked in the microelectronics industry as a chemist, I worked for one guy who lied all the time. His partner backed him up in every lie. I still have major trust issues 20 years later.

          • Mergatroyd

            It’s due to anti-white discrimination.

          • JohnEngelman

            White Gentiles are discriminated against on behalf of Negroes and Hispanics. Jews and Orientals earn their positions with the best universities and in the best corporations.

        • JohnEngelman

          IQ tests don’t measure ingenuity, imagination, talent, vision, dexterity, resilience, courage, desire, motivation, independence, self-control, honesty, etc

          – Bon, From the Land of Babble

          It sounds like you’ve turned liberal on us, Bon. There is such a correlation between IQ and creativity that I think creativity is a feature of intelligence. There is also a positive correlation between high IQ’s, and low rates of crime and illegitimacy.

          • Creativity is not quite a feature of intelligence. Jimmi Hendrix was an amazing guitar player, but nobody in their right mind would consider a guy who chokes to death on his own vomit after a drug overdose as brilliant.

          • JohnEngelman

            If Jimmi Hendrix composed his own songs, I would be interested in knowing what his IQ was. As a teenager John Lennon tested at 160. That puts him right up there with Albert Einstein and Bill Gates.

            Exceptionally talented people can become self destructive because they are used to getting away with stuff that would ruin most of our lives.

        • LovelyNordicHeidi

          You say:

          “IQ tests don’t measure ingenuity, imagination, talent, vision, dexterity, resilience, courage, desire, motivation, independence, self-control, honesty, etc which are all genetic traits and qualities that Whites overwhelming possess over Jews, Asians, Hispanics and blacks.”

          Could you provide me with data on racial differences in self-control, which proves your point on Whites? I just want to see the data so that I can use it in future debates. So, please give me whatever might be of use concerning self-control.

          • Bon, From the Land of Babble

            You will find the answers you are looking for in these two links:

            Richard Lynn’s, “Race and Psychopathic Personality”

            http //www amren com/news/2008/08/race_and_psycho/

            PJ Rushton’s:, Race_Evolution_Behavior_

            http //psychology uwo ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/race_evolution_behavior pdf

            From Professor Lynn’s article:

            “In 1994 the American Psychiatric Association issued a revised Diagnostic Manual listing 11 features of anti-social personality disorder: (1) inability to sustain consistent work behavior; (2) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behavior [this is a euphemism for being a criminal]; (3) irritability and aggressivity, as indicated by frequent physical fights and assaults; (4) repeated failure to honor financial obligations; (5) failure to plan ahead or impulsivity; (6) no regard for truth, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or “conning” others; (7) recklessness regarding one’s own or others’ personal safety, as indicated by driving while intoxicated or recurrent speeding; (8) inability to function as a responsible parent; (9) failure to sustain a monogamous relationship for more than one year; (10) lacking remorse; (11) the presence of conduct disorder in childhood.”

            “During the 65 or so years following its publication, the MMPI has been administered to a great many groups. Mean scores have been published by different investigators for a number of samples of blacks, whites, Asian-Americans, Hispanics and American Indians.”

            All of these studies show a consistent pattern: Blacks and Indians have the highest psychopathic scores.

            Delay of Gratification

            “The impulsiveness component of psychopathic personality includes an inability or unwillingness to delay immediate gratification in the expectation of long-term advantage. The first study to demonstrate differences between blacks and whites in the delay of gratification was carried out by W. Mischel in Trinidad in the late 1950s. He offered black and white children the choice between a small candy bar now or a larger one in a week. He found black children were much more likely to ask for the small candy bar now, and this difference has been confirmed in three subsequent American studies. This racial difference has been noted but given different names by different writers. In The Unheavenly City Revisited, Edward Banfield writes of the “extreme present-orientation” of blacks, and Michael Levin writes of “high time preference,” an economist’s term for preferring cash now rather than a greater sum in the future.”

            That should help but don’t get your hopes up, naysayers will still ask for “more proof” or tell you that Professors Rushton, Jensen and Lynn who have made it their life’s work to study racial differences are charlatans.

            Anti-Whites dispute the People dispute the veracity or proof of studies and research they do not like

          • LovelyNordicHeidi

            Thank you!

            I see the above excerpts compare between the White, Black and Indian races.

            Is there any information available concerning the delay in gratification as compared between the White gentile, Askhenazi Jewish and East Asian populations?

      • Daniel, too many Amreners are beginning to sound like “Asian supremicists” to me. All I did was relate my own experiences with Asians, which tends to refute the Asian superiority hypothesis. In fact, my Asian students performed below the white students. There’s a real question in my mind as to whether IQ tests can be gamed.

        • Daniel Schmuhl

          Engelman’s sinophilia is nerveracking but there is this tendency among white nationalists to conveniently ignore facts they don’t like. Most of the psychometric evidence supports the idea that some Asian groups have higher G. Regardless of creativity, open-mindedness etc.

          • Bon, From the Land of Babble

            It’s nerve-wracking when Asian supremacists and Asian philes come on here to try to prove that Asians are superior in all ways. The empirical evidence shows that to be completely untrue.

            The tech revolution was White-created and White dominated. If Asians have superior IQs where is the evidence?

            My dad was a professor of math and physics at a major university in California. He said East Indians and Asians made fine engineers and physicists but they could not think outside the box and this is what stopped them from making creative, breakthrough discoveries, as Whites do.

            One study by Ola Bengtsson and David H. Hsu looks at 1780 pairs of tech start-up founders and venture capitalists over about a decade centering around about 1998-2007. These are start-ups that at least got VC funding. About 48% of the start-ups are in California and 18% in Massachusetts.

            Among founders, a surname analysis shows 3% Chinese and 7% Indian. There may be some miscellaneous Asians that they didn’t break out. (Among venture capitalists, they find 4% Chinese and 4% Indian.)…Another analysis came up with 87% of founders white, 12% Asian, 1% black. These are both national surveys. The percent Asian in California is higher according to the second study: 18%.

          • Your comment about Asians not thinking outside the box rings absolutely true. I worked with Japanese in the microelectronics industry. They’re wonderful, hard-working people, but there was a spark missing in most of them. These were the best they could produce. Certainly there’s a Confucian culture of conformity, and disentangling culture from biology can be difficult. It was a Japanese-American, Larry Shinoda who produced the beautiful body styling of the 1962 Corvette Stingray. He grew up building and racing hot rods in Los Angeles, so culturally he was completely American.

            My favorite people are the Irish, hands-down. It’s their sense of humor that does it for me. Scots and Welsh are not amusing peoples.

          • Kalashnikov

            So those groups must have made some great contribution to the modern world. Right? Pasta maybe?

          • Chinese invented pasta, but Italians made it into an art form.

          • JohnEngelman

            Some people’s nerves are racked by facts they do not want to be reminded of.

      • Bon, From the Land of Babble

        Take it up with researcher Charles Murray:

        Charles Murray writes in Human Accomplishment:

        In the sciences, 97 percent of the significant figures and events turned out to be Western. Is this merely Eurocentric bias? Of the 36 science reference books he drew upon, 28 were published after 1980, by which time historians were desperately searching for non-Westerners to praise. Only in this decade has the most advanced non-Western country, Japan, begun to win science Nobels regularly.

        Galileo is at the top in astronomy; Darwin in biology; Newton and Einstein in physics; Pasteur in medicine; Beethoven and Mozart in Western music; and, of course, Shakespeare in Western literature. Technology, Thomas Edison and James Watt.

        Statistician Steve Sailer writes this about Murray’s research:

        Murray reserved eight of his 21 categories for Asians(including Arabic literature, Indian philosophy, and Chinese visual art) for non-Western arts.Murray meticulously dealt with each issue using his mastery of statistics.Murray, who was a Peace Corp volunteer in Thailand and has half-Asian children, began this project wanting to devote even more attention to Asian accomplishments but found he couldn’t justify his predisposition.

        Once assembled, his “inventory” of 4,002 significant figures in 21 categories … to my surprise, I can’t think of a single way to do it better than he did.

        His methods and lists should become the standards for future research.

    • This is in line with my own experiences with Asians at college. A Korean girl in my CS class who sat next to me would always look up the solutions to the homework on Stack Overflow during class. She didn’t even try to figure it out herself. A Chinese friend at school does the same stuff. He had to write a paper for calculus and 90% of his paper was copy and pasted from the internet. I kept telling him he was going to get busted for plagiarism, so he finally changed it a little. What’s so weird about it is that they do not think of it as cheating. It’s just part of the Asian mentality. I get along with Asians, but they are very foreign to me. I briefly dated a Japanese girl at school and I got aggravated with her because she always agreed with me about everything. She had no opinions about anything. It was really annoying.

      Just so happens I’m taking a macroeconomics course right now. I have no idea how my classmates are doing in it, but nobody ever answers any questions in class except (the few) white people. The professor has to call on blacks and Arabs, but they never have a clue. The Asians sit there like they’re in shock.

      • Antiquesunlight, keep sharing any classroom stories you have. I think these may be just as revealing as the statistics that we see.

      • William Krapek

        This is my experience. I’ve been around Asians for a long time – and a lot of them – and there’s no way they’re smarter than us. You can tell that with a little eye contact. I don’t see the light that I see in the eyes of white people.

        (Obviously for every rule there’s an exception.)

        And now that the archaeology is weighing in on what’s been happening the last 40,000 years, it’s clear we’ve been the most creative people in the world for millennia. Hasn’t even been close.

        • Personally, I think Asians are much more accurately described as clever rather than smart. I don’t think that is a trivial distinction.

          • William Krapek


      • My wife is pretty good at thinking on her feet, but Sayaka has been around me for the last eight years. She sometimes asks how I knew how to do something. She’s a lot younger than me; she’s 31 and I’m going to be 48 in a few weeks. I don’t always know how to do everything, but I read a whole lot and because I have a lot of experience, my intuition is fairly reliable.

        She has also influenced me, and for the better. I am a lot more careful now, and somewhat more organized. When I accumulate things that belong together, I make decorative wooden storage boxes for them. I made boxes for the parts and tools that go with my air-compressor out of empty ammo crates. The box for my fly-tying and fishing lure-making gear is an old 105mm tank ammunition crate. I sanded it down and refinished it to match the furniture, subcompartmented it and made lift-out boxes and trays. I stained it with used motor oil before varnishing it. I couldn’t do anything about the nylon rope handles, so I covered them with laced leather. Now it lives under the coffee table in the living room (I work there because the light is good).

        I can produce a fair imitation of black Japanese laquerware, but I prefer to cover wood with glued cloth. Yellow wood glue actually doesn’t show through. I get the cloth cheap at the ARC thrift store; I like paisley patterns the best, though Sayaka heisted some of the last bolt and made herself a blouse. I wasn’t peeved.

        My life with a northeast Asian is very, very happy.

    • Einsatzgrenadier

      Most of the evidence for “east Asian cognitive superiority” comes from a small number of researchers and is nowhere near as well-documented as B-W differences in IQ. You have every right to be skeptical IMO, especially when the evidence supporting it is very limited.

      Also, if east Asians are so smart, why is it that whites are responsible for 97% of all significant accomplishments in the sciences from 800 BC to 1950 AD?

      • “Also, if east Asians are so smart, why is it that whites are responsible for 97% of all significant accomplishments in the sciences from 800 BC to 1950 AD?”

        I’m sure there are all kinds of excuses for it like there are excuses for why the most advanced Native American civilizations at the time of European contact were at about the level of the ancient Middle East.

    • tlk244182

      Why doesnt cramming work for economics? I ask in all seriousness.

      • My guess from being in a macroeconomics course currently is that it isn’t heavily informational. Some of it is formulas and stuff, but a lot of it is just straight logic. You either get it or you don’t.

      • I don’t think cramming works very effectively as a study technique.

  • JSS

    Another myth about the SAT is that blacks will ever score on parity with Whites under any circumstances.

    • 1stworlder

      A watermelon eating event has been added to the math portion.

      • Edruezzi

        They’ll soon add one where vichyssoise eating is one of the sections. Of course blacks will flunk that and whites will ace it.

        • I can’t tolerate eggplant and zucchini. If it helps any, I like haggis just fine, though my wife won’t try it.

    • Edruezzi

      Well, since no genetic factors have been found, it would be interesting to reorder the world sufficiently for the experiment your post suggests to be carried out.

      • GFM2014

        No genetic factors have been found? Don’t the children of high-IQ parents typically express higher IQs themselves? The reverse is obviously true in this case.

        • Edruezzi

          Children of high IQ parents do express high IQs themselves. That applies to all races, black, white, yellow, tan, red, Neanderthal, or whatever.

  • thomas edward

    The thing is to forget these dumb tests. Just teach your own children what you want them to know and do what you can to insulate them from the barrage of anti-/American/White propaganda being preached in the schools

    • Edruezzi

      Make sure you teach them your version of genetics and human evolution and of the settlement of the Americas. It’s really important.

      • I collect skulls, and two of mine are about 65 million years apart. One is a dinosaur: Velociraptor mongoliensis and the other is a bird: Teratornis meriami. The first has teeth and the second doesn’t, but it is the same skull.

        That is why I believe in evolution.

        • GFM2014

          I don’t know of anyone personally who questions the fact that organisms evolve. The controversy concerns the inability of Evolutionary Theory to convincingly explain speciation, or to explain at all the enormous inconsistencies and gaps in the fossil record which should not exist. If you have two skulls which you have dated as being 65 million years apart, there ought to be 65 million years worth of such skulls in the process of evolving from reptile to bird. Homonid evolution is even more problematical. The whole notion of “punctuated equilibrium” is nothing but a patchwork attempt to keep the whole edifice from crumbling. As a theory it is far from complete in attempting to describe the dynamics of life on earth, but it is unquestionably a useful tool.

          • The problem is that it is highly unlikely for anything to become a fossil in the first place. What we have is a movie with a few still frames and miles of film footage missing in between.

  • Anon

    When you separate income and race, the income disparity on these tests disappears while the racial one holds. Rich whites and poor whites both do well. Rich blacks and poor blacks both do poorly.
    Why does the SAT exist anyway? Because IQ tests repeatedly showed that all whites were mentally strong enough to be educable. While almost all blacks were mentally deficient and could never really get an education. They wanted a test they could train students to take and STILL blacks fail.

  • Alucard_the_last

    Education begins at home. If one has a lazy, welfare whore mother that has only learned to fill out a welfare application, you know their brats are going to score low. Get rid of affirmative action and special rights and maybe blacks would score higher but as long as they have special rights, they will remain uneducated dolts whose only goal in life is to get social security and not work for the rest of their lives.

  • model1911

    Well stated. Now what do we do to save ourselves?

  • We could simply award blacks PhDs at birth while we’re at it.

  • Bon, From the Land of Babble

    Why have Asians not Dominated?

    From the AR archives, for all those here who claim that Asians are supeior to Whites:

    http //www amren com/ar/2009/10/index html#cover

    “Although the average Asian IQ is higher than the white IQ overall, it is not higher in all respects. Asians score substantially higher than whites on non-verbal tests but lower than whites on verbal tests. They score particularly well on spatial tests.

    The greater Asian aptitude on non-verbal tests and lower ability on verbal tests can also be interpreted as meaning that Asians are adapted to solving what I would call bounded problems. These are problems that have clear boundaries, such as how to build a canal or how to care for silkworms, rather than problems without boundaries, such as inquiring about the nature of the good, the purpose of life, or what constitutes art.

    These differences support the conclusion that the Asian personality is less enquiring or adventurous than that of the Caucasian, less verbal or sociable, and more conformist and submissive. This is not the type of personality that — despite an advantage in average IQ — pushes a society towards the achievements that characterize the West: developing an industrial revolution from scratch, creating modern science, giving birth to analytical philosophy, and evolving many varied forms of political life that value the contribution of the individual.

    What has been the Asian record since industrialization? Asians have had the invaluable example of European industry, science, and general cultural heritage, and have made much better use of it than any other non-Western racial group. However, their record is patchy. Japan has been able to duplicate the technology of the West but has not been able to surpass it. In the 1970s, many Americans feared Japan would dominate it economically and financially, but just as it seemed to pull abreast of the West, it began to stagnate and has shown little growth since the 1980s.

    No Asian society has achieved much success in fundamental scientific discovery or technological innovation that goes beyond the adaptation of what has been invented or discovered elsewhere. Nor, despite the large In any case, to copy culture as well as technology shows a strange lack of ambition. Why not do something whites have never done?

    Populations of Asians living in advanced European societies, can we find front-rank scientists in proportion to their numbers. In the social sciences their contributions are practically invisible. This lack of top-level achievement is particularly striking given that Asians have higher incomes than whites, go farther in school, and start more businesses.

    Despite their higher average IQ, Asians have failed to become the culturally dominant race probably because innate personality traits work against them. Compared to Europeans, they are passive, unquestioning, and lacking in initiative. The next 50 years will probably see a continuing rise in the economic and military power of China, but if history is any guide, this rise in power will not be matched by innovation, and China’s cultural contributions will remain insignificant.”

  • LHathaway

    “What’s more, free test-prep services are targeted toward poor and minority kids–surprisingly, black and Hispanic kids are actually more likely to use test prep, and they gain slightly more than whites from doing so (though Asians seem to gain unusually large amounts, as much as 70 points)”.

    I didn’t know so many asians grew up poor?

    Surely this article is not in any thing close to a mainstream publication? Not to be a member of the ‘tin-foil hat’ crowd, but any information like this (blacks and hispanics actually getting an advantage over whites – despite a social working class constantly dedicated to doing that as their job) such information would never come to light or be taught at any school. If necessary, and there would be no reason (just use another source) if absolutely necessary, the tale spun and released to the public would be a completely different version, an exact opposite version of the truth contained within.

    No way this little fact came from a mainstream publication. . .

  • JohnEngelman

    In 1984 George Orwell wrote: “All rulers in all ages have tried to impose a false view of the world upon their followers, but they could not afford to encourage any illusion that tended to impair military efficiency. So long as defeat meant the loss of independence, or some other result generally held to be undesirable, the precautions against defeat had to be serious. Physical facts could not be ignored. In philosophy, or religion, or ethics, or politics, two and two might make five, but when one was designing a gun or an aeroplane they had to make four.”

    It is all right for the dean of admissions of a university to pretend that IQ differences do not matter, and that blacks and Hispanics do not have less ability; they have different ability. Inadequate blacks and Hispanics pay the same tuition as do competent whites and Asians. When beneficiaries of affirmative action drop out or flunk out, the university still deposits their tuition money in the bank. The university can encourage blacks and Hispanics who do not belong on campus to take useless puff courses in black and Hispanic studies. When they graduate and end up in minimum wage jobs the university has still not lost. It can brag about having a student body “that looks like America,” and it can continue the scam.

    Those in charge of the U.S. military cannot afford these delusions. That is why they have continued to perform intelligence testing, despite pressures to lower standards for blacks and Hispanics.

    • My best friends growing up were Brian and Ed Myers. Brian became an army pharmacist and Ed a navy nuclear engineering officer. Since I am a racist, neither will talk to me, I said I was sorry about it all, but they also know I will always do anything and everything for the right.

  • I think you’re right; the Inuits simply had to work too hard.