Posted on July 14, 2011

Christians Should Learn How to Be a ‘Minority’ from Muslims, Bishop Says

Tim Ross, Telegraph (London), July 12, 2011

The Rt Rev Nick Baines, the Bishop of Bradford, said some parishes in his diocese were 95% Muslim but that this should not be seen as “a problem”.

“This is a fantastic opportunity,” he told the General Synod, the Church of England’s national assembly, in York.

“It is a challenge, yes, but it’s an opportunity to rethink what it means to be a Christian community. We often ask Muslims to learn what it is to be a Muslim as a minority culture.

“Maybe we could benefit from learning some of the same lessons in some of our cities.”

His comments came as Church leaders at the assembly were warned that Britain’s increasingly diverse society could undermine the position of the Church of England as the “established” faith of the nation.

In some communities, Anglicans have become “beleaguered” because Christians are so outnumbered by members of other faiths, according to a report presented to the Synod yesterday.

However, synod members recognised that the Church needed to adapt to Britain’s increasingly diverse society and backed moves to recruit more ethnic minority candidates to leaderships positions such as bishops.

They voted overwhelmingly in favour of a plan to tackle the Church’s “pale, male and stale” image by using methods that have been described as “favouritism” and “positive discrimination”.

The move came after a report by the Venerable Daniel Kajumba, Archdeacon of Reigate, showed only 1.1% of bishops, archdeacons and cathedral deans posts are filled by ethnic minority candidates.

The four ethnic minority clergy in these roles are Dr John Sentamu, Archbishop of York, the Rt Rev David Hamid, Suffragan Bishop of Europe, The Very Rev Rogers Govender, Dean of Manchester Cathedral, and himself in his post as Archdeacon of Reigate, he said.

This was in spite of congregations of up to 90% ethnic minorities in inner cities, and a growing proportion of ethnic minority worshippers in rural and suburban areas.

30 responses to “Christians Should Learn How to Be a ‘Minority’ from Muslims, Bishop Says”

  1. john bell in England says:

    Presumably it’s “stale” because it’s “pale and male”. This is quite typical of the way my church, the Church of England, thinks. They really do not realise how offensive – how racist – it is to speak of white men in this way.

    There is much in the Church of England which is beautiful, its ancient buildings, its glorious liturgy, but it is betrayed and besmirched by the cultural marxists who now control it as they control so much else in my poor old country.

    The Church could have built upon its Englishness to make itself an ethnic church, like the Armenian and Coptic churches, and then perhaps it would not have suffered the decades long collapse in its congregations which has been going on since the fifties. That, sadly, is unthinkable to Anglicanism which has to posture as an international body and rejoices in the replacement of the English in its congregations by racial aliens.It thus fails in the task entrusted to it by God of witnessing to the English.

  2. Anonymous says:

    I hope the pale, male, stale churchgoers oblige the bishops by becoming non-churchgoers. This will increase the percentage of female, vibrant, and non-white congregants, delighting the spiritual leaders.

  3. American Southerner says:

    The Brits, like the rest of Europe, let in Muslims to their countries and are now paying the price. It would have been a lot smarter in every way to keep them out, just as it would have been here. Muslims are a liability, not an asset, wherever they go.

  4. WR the elder says:

    The Muslim Imams believe in their religion, the British Christian Bishops do not. Christianity is dead in Great Britain.

  5. Tom S. says:

    *“It is a challenge, yes, but it’s an opportunity to rethink what it means to be a Christian community.

    Oh trust me Rev. Baines, you will soon know exactly what it means to be a Christian once the ‘tipping point’ is reached. I’m sure they’re sharpening their swords at this very moment. Better yet, why don’t you pack a suitcase full of bibles and fly to the Middle East, now THAT would be an “fantastic opportunity”! I truly hope you come out of your fog before the sword is at your throat.

    *“positive discrimination”

    Only demented liberals would think that makes sense! How is discrimination positive? Why then wasn’t it “positive” when Whites discriminated?

  6. LastWMinNYC says:

    “Take up the White Man’s burden–

    The savage wars of peace–

    Fill full the mouth of Famine

    And bid the sickness cease;

    And when your goal is nearest

    The end for others sought,

    Watch sloth and heathen Folly

    Bring all your hopes to nought.”

    Rudyard Kipling, The White Man’s Burden (1899)

  7. Anonymous says:

    No British person, Christian or not, should have to submit to being a minority in their own country. The only “fantastic opportunity” they’ll have now is getting rid of all the muslims that are ruining their country, and repatriate them back to their own third world countries.

  8. Jeddermann. says:

    “The Rt Rev Nick Baines, the Bishop of Bradford, said some parishes in his diocese were 95% Muslim but that this should not be seen as ‘a problem’”

    Nicky old boy, it is a problem. With 95 % of the persons in your parishes NOT Christian, you don’t have many parishoners, do you?

    Wake up Nicky!

  9. SKIP says:

    ” This will increase the percentage of female, vibrant, and non-white congregants, delighting the spiritual leaders.

    NO! this will increase the number of muslim attacks until the Christians are gone and the church is a huge victory mosque.

  10. Ben says:

    May I suggest to Rt Rev Nick Baines to live in the countries dominated by Islam…because as you well know Muslims and Christians are some of the most compatible groups around and you could learn a lot being a minority under Islam.

  11. Anonymous says:

    I can read, “watch out about criticizing traditional Western relgions.” I don’t have to here. This article makes it obvious why at least one major traditional Western religion ought to be dumped, and quick.

  12. Sylvie says:

    They voted overwhelmingly in favour of a plan to tackle the Church’s “pale, male and stale” image by using methods that have been described as “favouritism” and “positive discrimination”.

    I hope all the “pale, male and stale” people just up and leave and never come back!

    The move came after a report by the Venerable Daniel Kajumba, Archdeacon of Reigate, showed only 1.1% of bishops, archdeacons and cathedral deans posts are filled by ethnic minority candidates.

    Well…it’s the Church of ENGLAND isn’t it?

    I’ve heard that there’s not enough Protestant bishops in the Catholic Church too.

  13. Greg says:

    The decline of Christianity in Europe has brought about, among many other things, a sense of self-loathing among white (real) Europeans. Even when at times misinformed, Europeans used to risk death and torture (Crusades, Inquisition) to defend their Christian beliefs, thus forging a healthy sense of purpose in the minds of the people.

    However, with the rise of secularism brought about by the idea of religion being unnecessary or illogical, whites began to not only reject the religious beliefs of their collective forefather, but also his feelings of racial solidarity and moral resoluteness. Postmodernism casts its ugly head in many places, but it begins by destroying objective truth and belief in God. Declining birth rates are sure to follow.

    The Muslim conquerer, however, has no problem with the declinging role of Christianity in Europe nor with the form of it that remains. Only a few generations ago even nonChristian Brits themselves would have never stood for such passivity by a Bishop representative of them. But once society largely rejects God, rejecting their British heritage seems to be the next natural step.

  14. SKIP says:

    It would seem that Christians all over the Western world go out of their way for these “fantastic” opportunities to grovel to muslims. Maye the Christians that do so should spend some time in Pakistan, Afghanistan, the Sudan (old or new) Nigeria, Ivory Coast and such places and see how the muslims repay Christian tolerance and kindness.

  15. Fred from France says:

    Sometimes, I wonder whether Islam is really the problem.

    A few years ago, I discussed on the internet with a radical Salafist Muslim who had settled in France. I naturally informed him on my « far-right » political background, which did not disturb him at all, since his main problems were actually the Jews and Palestine. Muslims can never avoid those top priorities to them.

    Jokingly, I told him that if Westerners convert to islam en masse, there would be no place at all for the rule of Arabs and that Mecca would go to the « Franks ». To my surprise, he was not disturbed at all, and he replied by quoting the Koran with Surah 11 that it might well have been predicted by God himself:

    If ye turn away,- I (at least) have conveyed the Message with which I was sent to you. My Lord will make another people to succeed you, and you will not harm Him in the least.

    I also remember a French historian who had explained that if it is true that Charles Martel had saved the West from being islamized, above all he had saved islam from being “germanized”. Indeed, it is blatant that Spain was the most flamboyant Muslim state only because it was a White nation, and Turkey has dominated the Ummah for centuries only because it had a strong White minority.

    Since Christianity actually strongly weakens the Western world and democracy kills it productively, it could be an advantageous option to begin to cancel both! And to replace them with a virile religion as a system of thought and governement.

    But Sunni islam would not allow racial separation in the West. However, religious contempt and even ethnic issues between Sunni islam and Shiah islam are enormous. The gap is much wider that between Muslims and the different branches of Christianity. So Whites would have to embrace Shiah islam, or alternatively their own school of interpretation. Separation would ensue.

    With a strong White Muslim minority in the USA accounting for 20% of the population, « racism » and political correctness stop to apply to Muslims. Blacks (Zendj) go paving roads and cleaning cars as they do in Algeria. The only affirmative action they have is money for mosques. Sunni Muslims live on their side as they can. The only political expression allowed to Mexicans is Catholicism. Hindis and Oriental Asians are unworthy pagans anyway. Jews have only five representatives in the Congress and they all live in a shtetl in Brooklyn or North Dallasabad. Only worthy Christians and possibly worthy atheists are « protected » (it means they agree on issues that please us). We define worthiness for minorities, or they are not « protected ».

    In another future, Shiah Persians and Iran are our friends. Mecca and Saudi wealth will inevitably be ours. Even Jerusalem could be taken back thru extended blocus of Israel. No less! It is already done to Cuba.

    Religion certainly matters much in civilization, as does culture, but race is nevertheless the inescapable founding stone. Rome was Christian only when it started to decay. It is my belief that if the Western world is to be destroyed, it is our duty to do it ourselves. One way or another and perhaps this way.

    What sounds totally crazy to me now could be the only option tomorrow. Sunni islam is indeed a problem. Another islam could be the solution. Christianity is now only a mere pawn. It can become a gambit deserving only sacrifice.

  16. Fred from France says:

    If you take the Koran literally, only white people are saved. Wonderful!

    Surah 3:106 On the Day when some faces will be (lit up with) white, and some faces will be (in the gloom of) black: To those whose faces will be black, (will be said): “Did ye reject Faith after accepting it? Taste then the penalty for rejecting Faith.”

    From that angle, is it a so bad religion?

  17. XIXth says:

    Obviously, the Counter-Reformation is doing quiet well with its agents in the Synod…….

  18. Jupiter7 says:

    Post-WWW11 UK was six decades of sex,drugs and rock and roll. It was, and continues to, be a profane cuulture. If this culture was worth fighting and dying for, th Native Brits would have revolted against muslim-hindu-carribean colonization of the UK ten-twenty years ago. It’s just not a culture worth fighting for. And in the end, an utra-conservative muslim culture will sink its roots very deep…and it will be the end of the culture of sex,drugs and rock and roll. The poltical establishment of the UK, all of whose members have a sex,drugs and rock&roll sensibility, created a police that protected and promoted the rapid growth of an ultra-conservative muslim population…done in the name of diversity(degenerate culture and life style).

    I wouldn’t let even one native Englishman into America. They disgust me thoroughly.

  19. Fr. John says:

    Can we just skip the heresy trial, and go right to ‘burning at the stake’?

    Ah, for the good ol’ days, when Christian Europe knew how to get rid of its’ malcontents.

  20. Jupiter7 says:

    Fred from France

    I hate to admit this..but..I have thought about the exact same thing. Christianity in America comes in two versions:emasculated White Catholicism and Protestantism and the insane war mongering Christian Zionism in the Evangelical Belt. An Islamic White America would never tolerate the legalization of homosexual marriage for a second and would never send its teenagers to die horrible deaths in the Middle East on behalf of another nation.

    Now, I am not going to convert to Islam anytime soon. But I am not opposed to doing the thought experiment. I would take great satisfication in seeing the extreme over-the-top-fear in the eyes White Liberals eyes if Millions of Native Born White Americans converted to ultra-conservative Islam over the course of the next year.

    Race is way more fundamental than Christianity. Europe was non-Christian way longer than it has been Christian.

    I was born and raised an Irish Catholic and I can tell you that I have nothing but utter disgust for priests and nuns. Not an uncommon experience. However, would I prefer to live in White Christian nation. Yes, if it was culturally conservative and completely intolerant of White Liberals. But these days, Christianity haas morphed into something that is quite repellant.

  21. Fred from France says:


    I would not be keen at all to convert to islam either. It’s just that it could not be a choice. Indeed, when the number of Muslims goes beyond a certain point, it is simply unsafe and disadvantageous to remain a Christian and especially a liberal “free-thinking” atheist or a hedonist opportunist. White populations convert to islam as a necessity (those with some money giving the signal). It is however very doubtful that Whites could accept the authority of brown spiritual guides, talks in Arabic beyond the absolute minimum, and the promiscuity with many members of other races in a mosque or an association. Those are the main hurdles. Whites would follow only White Muslim spiritual guides. They will make their own version(s) of islam.

    Moreover, White men will soon or later notice that White women and daughters are worth a veil, as odious as it appears today. Many White women will be happy to have a stronger man and a dumb but strong philosophy that protects and that covets them. They will only wait that a “classy” or “germanized” form of conversion and behaviour appears. They need not to really believe it at first.

    Christianity in Western Europe is doomed in the long run because it is not egoistic towards the outside. Although universal too, Islam nonetheless allows egoism, even towards other Muslims. Whites will implicitly serve their interests thru anything that works because they did not want to serve them explicitly by voting for the BNP.

    You can expect sizable “classy” White Muslim populations to appear in the UK in the second half of this century. “Rag” islam will be left to Pakistanis and North Africans. That’s inescapable.

  22. Johnny English says:

    “American Southerner” @#3

    “The Brits, like the rest of Europe, let in Muslims and are now paying the price.”

    Whoah! Let me stop you right there!

    1) Please do not use the term “Brits” if you mean English – it is highly offensive as well as plain wrong;

    2) We ordinary English people did not “let in Muslims” – our elites did (lying to us all the while about the numbers and nature of the immigrants, and the reasons for their coming over at all). It has been done stealthily and incrementally, like the proverbial live frog in a saucepan being brought gradually to boiling point. Any explicit criticism of mass immigration/multiculturalism has been marginalised (in public discourse) and, latterly, often criminalised as well, as witness the relentless persecution of the BNP, the only political party that has a coherent plan of resistance, reversal and reconstruction.

    I suspect that you’re a “good ol’ boy” who just doesn’t like the English or continentals, with what you would probably regard as our “fancy ways”. That’s fine. Just keep it to yourself, and don’t blame us for the misfortunes inflicted upon us by our immensely powerful ruling elites. They, not we, are the architects of our destruction.

  23. François says:

    “Maybe we could benefit from learning some of the same lessons in some of our cities.”

    That man sounds like an idiot, and he should definitely grow a spine!

    The point is that when you are White, and Christian (or at least non-Muslim) in Great Britain, you shoudn’t feel like you belong to a minority in your own homeland!

    I can’t say I understand what happenned to the British; how did the builders of such a vast empire, become a nation of people who act like they should ask their minorities for the permission to exist, in their own country of origin?

  24. Gloria says:

    Contrary to what Fred suggests, I do not consider Islam to be desirable in any way.

    Islam is a savage, Arab supremacist ideology. Their “holy” book is a Satanic parody of Judaism and Christianity.

    Anyone who would even consider Islam should contrast the different ways Jesus and Mohammed deal with adulterous women:

    From the Hadith of Abu Dawud, #4428

    “Buraidah said: “A woman of Ghamid came to the Prophet and said: “I have committed fornication”, He said: “Go back”. She returned and on the next day she came to him again, and said: “Perhaps you want to send me back as you did to Maiz b. Malik. I swear by Allah, I am pregnant.” He said to her: “Go back”. She then returned and came to him the next day. He said to her: “Go back until you give birth to the child.” She then returned. When she gave birth to the child she brought the child to him, and said: “Here it is! I have given birth to it.” He said: “Go back, and suckle him until you wean him.” When she had weaned him, she brought him to him with something in his hand which he was eating. The boy was then given to a certain man of the Muslims and he (the prophet) commanded regarding her. So a pit was dug for her, and he gave orders about her and she was stoned to death. Khalid was one of those who were throwing stones at her. He threw a stone at her. When a drop of blood fell on his cheek, he abused her. The prophet said to him: “Gently, Khalid. By Him in Whose hand my soul is, she has repented to such an extent that if one who wrongfully takes an extra tax were to repent to a like extent, he would be forgiven”. Then giving command regarding her, prayed over her and she was buried.””


    Whatever happens to Europe, I am not willing stop being a Christian under any circumstances.

  25. American Southerner says:

    Well, now, Johnny English, aren’t YOU the professional victim!! It’s all the FAULT of your guv’m’t? All those nasty people of privilege? Do you not have the vote yet in England? (Sorry about the “Brit” – no offense meant). But really, y’all voted in at least half of your guv’m’t. Trust me, I don’t like MY guv’m’t at present, either – but I’m not about to play victim to them and whine about it being all their fault.

    I am NOT a “good ole boy” – I am a 66 year old white woman living on the West Coast of the USA,(born in the South), I have a Ph.D., and I LOVE the English. I do NOT love what has happened to the English nation or to the other European nations, who had perfectly good national cultures UNTIL they allowed Muslims in. If you want change, then make it happen. You’re not a serf. And you’re also not alone in wanting the wretched Muslims out of your country.

  26. SNAviatrix says:

    Jupiter and Fred, yours are some of the most disgraceful comments I’ve ever read on Amren, and that includes posts from trolls. Muslims are 1% of the population of the United States and 3% of the population in Britain, and you talk of surrender and conversion to Islam? How are you any better than the white liberal cowards who have sold out their own race? Actually, you are WORSE than they are. I’d rather associate with a liberal secular humanist who supports enlightened, WHITE, Western values like equality for women, constitutional government, and protection of civil liberties than the likes of you.

    Go on then. Convert if you will. But not me. I am a proud White woman, and I will never sumbit to the cruelty and hatred, the primitive barbarism and ignorance, and the reactionary politics of brown Muslim would-be overlords. I will wear the abaya when someone puts one on my cold dead body.

  27. Johnny English says:

    To “American Southerner” @#25

    I’m a victim, to be sure, but not a “professional” one, ma’am, since I never chose to be one, or offered myself or my country for hire in such a capacity.

    Yes, we have the vote in England, but, like the U.S., what we have is merely a “form of democracy”; that is to say, there is the pretence of free and fair elections, and the spectacle of political parties ostensibly offering alternative programmes to the electorate. What we have, in reality, is widespread electoral fraud (including the deliberate abuse of block and postal votes, especially by Muslim immigrants and their descendants), and mainstream political parties co-opted and bankrolled by powerful corporations and individuals (such as Rupert Murdoch) who have converged in their (or, to be more precise, their paymasters’ and sponsors’) aims, resulting in a permanent coalition between the politically-correct left and the free-market right. This is why we have open-borders and uncontrolled mass immigration, buttressed by an official policy of multiculturalism, articulated through all of the mainstream media, and in the so-called education system and popular “culture” (which keep most of our population permanently ignorant, distracted and servile).

    Who says I’m not a serf? I didn’t choose to be, but that’s what I am, and it’s what you probably are too, if you had the good sense to see it. I expect that you now might just tell me to “grow a pair”, and wonder aloud why we Europeans aren’t obsessed with demanding the right to carry firearms, as if this is some kind of (almost literal) magic bullet that will instantly persuade our rulers of the errors of their ways. Please excuse me if I find this a shade simplistic.

    In short (to adopt a locution of Mr Micawber), we white nationalists, in Europe as in the U.S., are a beleaguered, scattered, culturally marginalised (and constantly vilified) group, ranged against immensely powerful cultural, political and social forces, including (but by no means limited to) the sheer numbers of immigrants flooding rapidly into our countries and, when there, establishing bridgeheads and outbreeding us, all the while being pandered to by the authorities and lied about by their propaganda mouthpieces. Did I mention that we are also liable to suffer legal (not to mention financial and social) penalties for expressing our opinions? Yes, I did.

  28. Fred from France says:


    Contrary to what Fred suggests, I do not consider Islam to be desirable in any way.

    I could not agree more with you. It was just an attempt of reverse logic on the will to live of the Christian schools of faith today. They were the pillars of our civilization and they have turned themselves into bulldozers.

  29. Fr. John says:

    Jupiter- ” But these days, Christianity haas morphed into something that is quite repellant.”

    Have you ever once thought that such is not TRUE Christianity, but a co-opted, apostate copy of same?

    there are those of us who ‘have not bowed the knee to Baal’ – either via miscegenation, nor the idolatrous worship of that piece of real estate over in Palestine.

    We are few, but we uphold the faith and culture of the White Man’s Religion, and Europe as a geographically insular ‘for US and our posterity’ paradigm.

  30. Stephen says:

    So if the Aglican Church think we should learn behaviour from Muslims does that mean we should blow up trains, fly planes into buildings and chant death to the infidel.