Nick Squires, Telegraph (London), May 11, 2009
Italy does not want to become a “multi-ethnic” country and will continue its newly adopted policy of sending boatloads of immigrants and asylum seekers back to North Africa, the prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said.
Previous Left-wing governments had “opened the doors to clandestine migrants coming from other countries, with an idea of a multi-ethnic Italy,” Mr Berlusconi said.
But that kind of society was “not our idea”, he added, as he sought to reassure Italians who were alarmed at the number of immigrants pouring into the country, particularly from eastern Europe and Africa.
The prime minister’s vision of Italy was condemned by the centre-Left opposition. “Yes, Mr Premier, we have a different idea of Italy: multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free,” said Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic Party.
“A country in which the colour of your skin, or race or religion doesn’t matter, but, rather, honesty and sincerity of heart do.” Since launching a tough new policy on boat people last week, Italy has turned back six boats carrying a total of 1,500 immigrants and asylum seekers which were trying to reach the country’s southernmost outpost, the island of Lampedusa.
The vessels were escorted back to Libya, the most popular jumping off point for clandestine immigrants, by the Italian coast guard and navy.
The boat people, mostly from sub-Saharan Africa and the Horn of Africa, trek across the Sahara and pay people smugglers thousands of pounds in the hope of securing a new life in Europe.
In the past, Italy would accept the immigrants and take them to the mainland for processing and identification before deciding whether to grant them asylum or some other form of protection.
The new approach was condemned by the UN’s refugee agency, Medecins Sans Frontieres, the Vatican and Italian opposition MPs, who called it “a disgrace”.
Mr Berlusconi, 72, dismissed the criticism, saying that from now on only those who met conditions for political asylum and set foot on Italian soil would be allowed into the country.
“I see no scandal,” he said. “It’s clear that in the sea we will lend assistance” to boat people. When migrants were rescued in international waters, Italy had the right not to take them in, he said.
On Sunday another boat, this time carrying 240 immigrants, was stopped by Italian patrol boats and escorted back to Libya.
The interior minister, Roberto Maroni, who is a member of the anti-immigrant Northern League party, part of the ruling coalition, hailed the return of migrants as “historic”.
He added that the “get-tough policy will continue as long as the boats set out” from the North African coast.
The government also has plans to force doctors and teachers to go to the authorities if they suspect their patients or pupils are illegal immigrants.
Original article
(Posted on May 11, 2009)
Comments
I don’t think we should put our hopes in Berlusconi. He has a history of corruption and is a complete cynic, if the electorate wanted more immigrants he would fight to let them in. I fully support any measure to crack down mass 3rd world immigration but I would rather those measures be advocated by someone more reputable.
As an American, I prefer to know that Italy is full of Italians and not just an Italian-speaking clone of the multiracial disaster that the U.S. has become.
Berlusconi is a hero! Thanks God the Italian people voted him back into office in 2006. Is there any way we can get Berlusconi to be President of the United States? he’s 100X better than B.O.!
I am absolutely amazed that an Italian political figure could say…”The prime minister’s vision of Italy was condemned by the centre-Left opposition. “Yes, Mr Premier, we have a different idea of Italy: multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free,” said Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic Party…”
Berlusconi claims Italy doesn’t want to become Multi-Ethnic. Well, from what I’ve read about his activities in old Italia, you sure as hell wouldn’t know it. To me, Berlusconi seems to be just another one worldist, who profits from that philosophy whenever he can. He talks out of both sides of his mouth constantly, and I’m amazed Italians aren’t sick of the guy.
“A country in which the colour of your skin, or race or religion doesn’t matter”
Sorry, Ms. Melandri. Color matters, race matters, religion matters… Those build a country, a nation…
We in the U.S. don’t hear much about Haitian “boat people” much anymore but Coast Guard friends say they are still coming. We should do the same thing, and do away with the “setting foot on U.S. soil” rule, just catch them where we can, and send them home.
At best, this is only a start. All previously accepted immigrants need to have their cases “reviewed” by an impartial tribunal of Italian Friends of AmRen, or some such organization. After a fair hearing, all the non-Whites should be deported. The left has been importing a new electorate in every Western country, so there’s no need to listen to any of their “Democracy” talk. No patriot is bound to honor the promises of traitors.
“Yes, Mr Premier, we have a different idea of Italy: multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free,” said Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic Party.
Giovanna, dear, you are sadly mistaken. If Italy becomes multi-ethnic and pluralistic, it will be anything but free.
“A country in which the colour of your skin, or race or religion doesn’t matter, but, rather, honesty and sincerity of heart do.”
Why, yes, if we just wish it, it will be so. Lets all have a group hug and sing Kum Ba Yah and all will be well.
GOOD FOR ITALY! VIVA ITALY! Why should Italy be a “multi-ethnic society? WHY? What for?
“Yes, Mr Premier, we have a different idea of Italy: multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free,” said Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic Party.
Thank you for your help.
The truth is the average person, regardless of whether they are in the USA, Italy or anywhere else has never been asked whether they wanted mass immigration or diversity. The truth is most average people don’t. It’s something that has been foisted upon them by their politicians, the uber Left who want the votes and have a certain ideology and the globalists who want cheap labor. It’s the will of the people that counts, not special interests.
Berlusconi must either be high or not know the history of the Mediterranean countries. They’ve all been multi-ethnic since ancient times. It’s an area of ports. If you go to Italy, you’ll see they don’t have one culture, but many smaller indigenous ones. There wasn’t even an Italy in existence as we know it until the 1860s, when Garibaldi unified the small nations of the peninsula.
I salute the wisdom and will-power of our Italian brothers, who have rightly decided that being “Italian” entails more than just standing on a particular spot of ground. They have moved to protect their nation, their culture, their people, and their future.
The fact that the UN and other bodies protest the Italians moving to protect themselves is an outright travesty. The Italians owe NOTHING to the boat people, nor to the UN, nor to the continent of Africa itself. They have the same right as any sovereign nation and people to determine their own future. They should be honored and congratulated for actually daring to do so.
“A country in which the colour of your skin, or race or religion doesn’t matter, but, rather, honesty and sincerity of heart do.”
I love Berlusconi. More Western countries should have a leader like him. Instead they have pathetic pansies.
““Yes, Mr Premier, we have a different idea of Italy: multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free,” said Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic Party.”“
Good for the real Italians! We need to do the same in this country of the new Divided States Of America.
“The interior minister, Roberto Maroni, who is a member of the anti-immigrant Northern League party, part of the ruling coalition, hailed the return of migrants as “historic”.”
Now let’s see ALL of Europe follow Italy’s lead and also start turning back the Third World hordes invading their shores! France, England, Netherlands, Scandinavia — this means YOU!
I never thought the Italians would show such leadership and courage, in the face of the left-wing establishment that controls European political discourse.
Now is the time for good men to rally behind Berlusconi.
“There wasn’t even an Italy in existence as we know it until the 1860s, when Garibaldi unified the small nations of the peninsula.”
So what? How many blacks lived in 1860s Italy? How does Italy’s having become a nation at that time oblige today’s Italians to embrace racial and civilizational suicide? More pointless, over-ostentatious erudition.
I’ve seen a couple of criticisms of Burlesconi here about being two faced and such. Personally I wouldn’t care if the president of the U.S. had as many faces as Hydra, as long as he was running off and throwing out the illegals from America. The announced 30% shortfall in IRS revenue is going to have repercussions on all of us White Taxpaying Slaves.
Yes indeed!!! Race matters, color of one’s skin matters, religion matters!
It is the only GLUE that holds a nation and culture together. Mix them all together and all you have is chaos, disunity, racial strife, poverty, escalating crime rates, outrageous taxation, miscegnation, a loss of cultural identity and the list goes on. We see it all right here in the USA and what it has wrought this nation.
People complain that he appoints women on the basis of
I was recently in Rome and from just walking around the streets you could see among the native Italians that some looked the same as people from north of the Alps while others were darker and clearly looked Greek or Middle Eastern.
I like Italians - get one very well with them. In fact virtually grew up with Italian kids. And I like Italy, one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Italians also did not have too much of a colonial history - so in that sense I don’t have too much problems with what Berlusconi is saying. Similar with countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Lithuania.
However the case is obviously different for the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, countries founded in non-white areas on non-white lands. Same even goes for Russia - in fact there are millions of Russians in Central Asian countries whose presences was there by invasion.
Obviously the UK and France had large colonial empires - so they really cannot complain too much - after all they promoted the greatness of the British and French civilizations respectively - so the fact that the natives bought into this and decided to want a piece of this for themselves is only to be expected.
Afterall their populations will reflect their history - their colonial history. So to me there is nothing unnatural about this.
In spite of the above, non-whites still can make some sort of moral claim to live in any Western European country like Norway, Sweden, and Italy and even an Asian country like Japan. Western Europe and Japan even today still benefit from the spoils of past imperial and colonial plunder. The wealth from those directly engaged in imperialism obviously spilled over to benefit the likes of Switzerland, and Sweden.
So non-whites do have some claim on those places as well. And so do Asians against Japan. But the claim is a lot little weaker for countries like Sweden and Switzerland than it is for countries like France and Britain. As for Japan, I have always held that China has the moral right, indeed duty, to invade and do what it likes with her - but of course this should be of no concern to people on this website.
On a personal note though, I would like to see Italy, Austria, Sweden, and Switzerland remain untouched and unchanged - as I visit those countries and enjoy the indigenous culture of those places.
Now wait for the liberals in the EU countries to start bleating like a flock of sheep.
Naughty boy Senor Berlusconi, you’re screwing up their efforts to wipe you out.
I thought it was almost too good to be true. Im glad to see a political figure of a white country stand up like that.
Heres hoping he started a trend
“Berlusconi has a history of corruption and is a complete cynic… I fully support any measure to crack down mass 3rd world immigration, but I would rather those measures be advocated by someone more reputable.”
Italy has the lowest birthrate in Europe, so closing its borders is is only half the challenge, the others is having enough children in the coming 20 years to prevent Italy from disappearing from the earth.
border control only works if there’s someone to control the border.
While it’s true the Berlusconi doesn’t really care about anything but wealth and power for himself, it’s amazing that the political climate in Italy is so much further to the right on immigration/identity issues than it is in the US. Actually, it’s really all the English speaking countries where racial masochism among the elites is most extreme.
“We have a different version of Italy, multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free..”
Pardon me for asking but can’t a mono-ethnic country be free too? What is the connection between “multi-ethnicity” and freedom? Hasn’t Italy been free for several decades as a mono-ethnic country? How is a homogeneous Italy incompatible with freedom?
“A country in which the color of your skin, your race or religion don’t matter,,,”
But they DO MATTER. That is exactly WHY there is an Italy. Because an ethnic group with one language, culture, heritage, social mores and cultural makeup occupy this peninsula and it is their homeland. That should be respected and not changed. Especially when the changes are not asked for but are merely a “camp of the saints” scenario. And all evidence around the world shows homogeneity is better then diversity. The Italians nedd only look across the Adriatic to ex-Yugoslavia for this.
Hopefully, we have just witnessed a sea-change in politics, in that Silvio Berlusconi appears to be the first head of state of a major White nation who has openly and explicitly nailed his colors firmly to the mast, unequivocally stating that he does not wish to see his nation degenerate into a multi-racial state.
Here’s a spin “How can their home countries be improved if anyone with the guts to change their countries policies simply leaves the country for the more advanced culture of western countries?”
“Now wait for the liberals in the EU countries to start bleating like a flock of sheep”
Take a page from the Navy Seals blueprint: just shoot a few and the problem will go away.
On a personal note though, I would like to see Italy, Austria, Sweden, and Switzerland remain untouched and unchanged - as I visit those countries and enjoy the indigenous culture of those places
By the way - also the women.
“There wasn’t even an Italy in existence as we know it until the 1860s, when Garibaldi unified the small nations of the peninsula.”
Italian culture and nation, existe from tha Augusto age, in that period all tha inhabitants of Italy were Roman citizens, after the fall of the roman empire, Italy was divide in small kingdoms until 1860.
“I don’t think we should put our hopes in Berlusconi. He has a history of corruption and is a complete cynic, if the electorate wanted more immigrants he would fight to let them in. I fully support any measure to crack down mass 3rd world immigration but I would rather those measures be advocated by someone more reputable.”
Don’t believe all the things you read in the ELITIST’s newspapers, is their truth, not the truth.
Probably you see some immigrants, Italians don’t looks like nordic people or middle eastern people, Italians are Italians, we are proud of that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html
To Anonymous at 2:08 am/ May 12
Well there was an austrian political leader, named JÖRG HAIDER. He led the austrian freedom party, and was the govenor of Carinthia for a prolonged time (until hies death last year)
For Information take a look on the leftist-liberal wikipedia.:
His words, and he regularly recited it.:
He really oposed all form of immigration, his party run an anti immigration agenda.
Joerg Haider died in 2008 in a car accident. Some details of his death remain unclear, a lot of right wing people, including me think, he has been killed.
J4ni
As for Japan, I have always held that China has the moral right, indeed duty, to invade and do what it likes with her - but of course this should be of no concern to people on this website.
None but ardent students of history would be aware of the atrocities committed by the Japanese against the Chinese, it makes the Jewish/Nazi thing look like a small traffic accident. The Koreans fared no better with the Japanese!! in fact, NO Asian people fared very well with the Japanese. The Chinese had their own “trail of tears” and they called it that, led by none other than Mao Tse Tung.
Avanti il popolo! Can we send Silvio Berlusconi money to help with his relection?
Probably you see some immigrants, Italians don’t looks like nordic people or middle eastern people, Italians are Italians, we are proud of that.
Right. Italians are just Italians, neither Nordic nor Middle Eastern…
http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians.html
“In spite of the above, non-whites still can make some sort of moral claim to live in any Western European country like Norway, Sweden, and Italy and even an Asian country like Japan.”
The people whose countries Norway, Sweden and Italy are have every right to decide who may and may not enter and live there, the absurd, logic-torturing justifications of non-whites notwithstanding.
“Berlusconi must either be high or not know the history of the Mediterranean countries. They’ve all been multi-ethnic since ancient times. It’s an area of ports. If you go to Italy, you’ll see they don’t have one culture, but many smaller indigenous ones. There wasn’t even an Italy in existence as we know it until the 1860s, when Garibaldi unified the small nations of the peninsula.”
That doesn’t matter. Spain, Germany, France, Britain, have many parts with regional customs and accents. So what?
True that Italy was a collection of various separate, independent states — as was Germany, for that matter. But politically unified or not, there was always a cultural and geographical place known as “Italy”. People knew what was meant by Italy, for centuries before there was a political entity by that name. “Italy” was not suddenly invented in 1860, upon unification. It was always there. The same with Germany in 1870. Did Poland not exist until 1918? Would you say there was no such place as Ireland, before Irish independence in 1921? No Irish people? No Irish nation or culture? The Jews had no country for many, many centuries, but there were still Jews. There was no Armenia, but there were Armenians. You have to distinguish the place and people from the government (or absence of it).
“Yes, Mr Premier, we have a different idea of Italy: multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free,” said Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic Party.”
“A country in which the colour of your skin, or race or religion doesn’t matter, but, rather, honesty and sincerity of heart do.”
Honesty and sincerity of heart: how nice! So that’s what it takes for citizenship. In other words, if they’re “nice” people and tell the truth, they can all be Italians. So come on, Africa! Just be nice, and you’ll be welcome.
“the UK and France had large colonial empires - so they really cannot complain too much - after all they promoted the greatness of the British and French civilizations respectively - so the fact that the natives bought into this and decided to want a piece of this for themselves is only to be expected.still benefit from the spoils of past imperial and colonial plunder. The wealth from those directly engaged in imperialism obviously spilled over to benefit the likes of Switzerland, and Sweden.
I think the Italians have enough sense to oppose watching an envoronment created in which their children are discriminated against in and in which their disintinct culture is dstroyed as well as themselves wholly eventually.
Anonymous at 10:16 PM on May 11 wrote:
“I never thought the Italians would show such leadership and courage, in the face of the left-wing establishment that controls European political discourse.”
Oh really? Where would you expect such “leadership and courage,” America? The UK? Germany? On Sept. 12, 2001 the “leader of the free world” had this to say on tv:
“Islam is a religion of peace.”
This is what Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi said two weeks later.
“We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilization, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it and guarantees respect for human rights and religion. This respect certainly does not exist in Islamic countries.”
A lot of cynics here call Berlusconi a “crook.” That’s nice. Tell me: which one of our presidents wasn’t/isn’t a crook? Clinton with Whitewatergate, Travelgate or worse: Chinagate?
Bush with his questionable stock sales plus his dealings with the “PNAC” crowd?
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0721-02.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/06/september11.iraq
http://us-elections.suite101.com/article.cfm/obama_fundraising_gets_scrutiny
“I was recently in Rome and from just walking around the streets you could see among the native Italians that some looked the same as people from north of the Alps while others were darker and clearly looked Greek or Middle Eastern.”
I was in Germany not too long ago. I saw people who looked Scandinavian. I also saw a lot of people who looked like this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/health/30age.html?ex=1311912000&en=eea0952d60448481&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=1
I was walking through a park in Rome, Italy the other day and I saw a flyer put up by a neighborhood committee had organized a campaign to save another local park.
What struck me was the simple drawing on the flyer: three cartoon boys playing soccer. All were white. The drawing is visible on the committee’s website: http://tinyurl.com/q848oa . It is unthinkable to me that any such drawing in the U.S. or most other countries would feature three white boys. No, it would in all probability include a black boy, a white girl, and perhaps an asian or brown-skinned character of indeterminate race.
In Italy they are still, for a short while longer, free enough and innocent enough not to worry about “including” any and all aggrieved parties that may decide to be offended.
I don’t like Berlusconi, but his willingness to state the obvious gives me hope.
Finally there is a country that knows who it is, likes who it is, and wants to stay that way. Perhaps Italy will survive the massive hordes of barbarians who want to destroy a beautiful country.
I would like to introduce Andreas Hofer to the room, if I may.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Hofer
To make a few more points if I may?
We will do well if we begin retrieving these men from the closet they have been relegated to by “Progressive Education”. More importantly, we need to asume the role of teacher in whatever capacity we serve in this life. Passing along the information has always been mens responsibility, and we need to begin taking that responsibility seriously. If no, then two generations hence, our children will believe beyond the possibility of comprehension that American or Western History is chiefly a theater of engagement by outraged outsiders who knew better than the long gruntled.
“However the case is obviously different for the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, countries founded in non-white areas on non-white lands. Same even goes for Russia - in fact there are millions of Russians in Central Asian countries whose presences was there by invasion.Obviously the UK and France had large colonial empires - so they really cannot complain too much - after all they promoted the greatness of the British and French civilizations respectively - so the fact that the natives bought into this and decided to want a piece of this for themselves is only to be expected.”
Nonsense. If you look at the history of the world, non-whites did every bit as much conquering as whites did. Non-white nations and tribes fought against each other and conquered each other. In the matters of the USA,Canada and Australia, non-whites came from somewhere else and only occupied a small area. Most of these areas were unoccupied when whites came and there was no “nation” at the time. (According to you logic, then no nation, white or non-white has the right to have borders and can let anyone in.) However, all of this has nothing to do with today. Today, we have nations and each nation has the right to exist and to protect its’ established borders. This goes for the USA, Canada, the UK , Japan, China or anywhere else. Non-whites have no more right to go to the USA or Canada or the UK then AMerican, Canadians and Brits have the right to go to India, Mexico, China or wherever.
Reply to John Liu:
Everything you have said here is just rationalization and self-deception to try to “justify” non-Whites seeking to gain entry (and thus the benefits and lifestyle) to White countries. Immigration is a privilege, not a right. As for you “enjoying” German and Austrian women you probably mean prostitutes.
Stopping the invasion by sea is a vital first step but more will be needed to prevent a multi-ethnic future. If Berlusconi is sincere he should take further actions. (1) He’ll have to control immigration coming from the rest of Europe, both at the borders as well as having internal controls within Italy. This will likely put him and Italy in conflict with the EU administration. (2) He’ll have to deal with government workers and university professors who are working hard to achieve the multi-ethnic objective. Many will have to be purged from their jobs. I suggest as a litmus test they be asked their opinion about the future of traditional ethnic Italians. If their social theories can’t handle the ethnic rights of Italians, then that will be cause for dismissal. (3) Ways have to be found to give voice to the large majority of Italians who don’t approve of ethnic transformation. Individuals who speak out are usually ostracized and bullied back into line. There is strength in numbers but it needs to be mobilized. Berlusconi could help establish Italian ethnic clubs across the country.
Non-whites have no more right to go to the USA or Canada or the UK then AMerican, Canadians and Brits have the right to go to India, Mexico, China or wherever
Certainly not an automatic legal right, but non-whites were in America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand for a long time before whites. So those countries never were whites only countries, and there is no reason why only whites should get to decide who should enter them. Maybe black Americans would prefer black immigrants over white-surely their opinion and feelings should hold equal weight to white opinion? And maybe native Americans (who have all but been decimated) would prefer native American immigrants from South America, to make the US more congenial to them? And Innuits might feel racially more empathetic to Chinese and Japanese immigrants rather than Russian immigrants to Canada?
In the matters of the USA,Canada and Australia, non-whites came from somewhere else and only occupied a small area.
Incorrect, but more importantly irrelevant. Non-whites violently resisted the encroachment of whites - they never just accepted that whites could take their land- no matter how sparsely populated. Furthermore applying this logic, China would have the moral justification to invade and occupy Australia - after all, vast tracts of Australia are still virtually unpopulated. Maybe China should take all of the Northern Territories - how would you feel about that then?
Non-white nations and tribes fought against each other and conquered each other.
So it is OK then, from your point of view, to flood Sweden and Poland with non-whites - on account of those two countries having warred with each other in the past?
Anonymous at 8:03 PM on May 12: you miss the point. There is no real moral justification to prevent the immigration of non-whites into Europe. Non-whites should, and do, feel completely morally justified to enter Europe, based on past colonial exploitation and even the unjust economic order prevailing today.
And in any case millions of non-whites in Europe is balanced by millions of whites in formerly non-white North and South America, and Australasia.
So morally whites have no real reason to complain.
But from a survival, Darwinian point of view, they might well have. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot be moral and restrictionist at the same time. You cannot claim some unique quality of reciprococity, and bask in your righteousness, while at the same time prevent non-whites from enjoying the proceeds of their own exploitation at the hands of whites.
But still it would be a shame for countries like France and Italy to be destroyed by immigration of hostile, and even non-hostile foreigners ( I agree that large scale immigration will destroy the indigenous culture - as happened to the Native Americans, New Zealand Maori, and Australian aborigines).
So the way to approach the problem is ensuring economic justice across the world, and the West helping the non-West build themselves up. When this happens people will have less incentive to leave their homelands - after all- how big a problem is Japanese immigration into the US these days?
And furthermore, that all of Europe’s wealth and progress was merely “plunder” wrung from its hapless possessions abroad. In other words, Europeans got rich because they made others poor.
Even if none of Europe’s wealth and progress resulted from her conquering and massacrign foreign peoples that is not the point. The victim has the right to demand redress from the criminal - based on the scale of the crime, not on how much the criminal may have profited or utilized those proceeds of crime.
The fact is if the third world presented a bill to the first world for compensation for past criminal actions of whites, any figure justly arrived at would bankrupt the West.
So having a few non-whites in Europe is small price to pay for the annihilation of many non-white populations and the plunder of others.
“Stopping the invasion by sea is a vital first step but more will be needed to prevent a multi-ethnic future. If Berlusconi is sincere he should take further actions.”
But that shouldn’t be impossible. After all, the holes WERE all sealed up until only 20 or 30 years ago. This illegal immigration phenomemon is a very new thing. The challenge was handled before with no great difficulty at all when there were stricter border controls and formalities. It was just routine. It worked then and it could be done again. It’s nonsense when politicians claim it’s impossible to deal with the problem.
I disagree, however, that professors (and such) could be dismissed by asking them a few direct and simple questions. They will easily get around that by lying. They will say whatever is necessary in order to stay within the system and continue subverting it. They will have to be judged by their real actions, writings and words, not by a “simple litmus test” just asking their opinion.
“Stopping the invasion by sea is a vital first step but more will be needed to prevent a multi-ethnic future. If Berlusconi is sincere he should take further actions.”
But that shouldn’t be impossible. After all, the holes WERE all sealed up until only 20 or 30 years ago. This illegal immigration phenomemon is a very new thing. The challenge was handled before with no great difficulty at all when there were stricter border controls and formalities. It was just routine. It worked then and it could be done again. It’s nonsense when politicians claim it’s impossible to deal with the problem.
I disagree, however, that professors (and such) could be dismissed by asking them a few direct and simple questions. They will easily get around that by lying. They will say whatever is necessary in order to stay within the system and continue subverting it. They will have to be judged by their real actions, writings and words, not by a “simple litmus test” just asking their opinion.
John Liu,
John Liu:
Everything you say is utter rubbish. Just rationalization and self-deception. Europe’s wealth did not come from colonialism. Germany had only a few African territories and only for a very brief time. No serious person would say that Germany became a prosperous nation because of them. Look at how Germany was ruined after WW2. What role did Africa play in Germany’s return to modernity? NONE. The Scandanavian countries had no empires and they are the best countries in Europe. I don’t see Japan letting in millions of Chinese because of their previous occupation of Taiwan or attempted conquest of China. Non-White immigrants have no “right” to be in Europe or White overseas countries. Not just no “legal” right but no right period. Immigration (which I see as an 18th and 19th century outdated phenomenon) is a privilege not a right.
Reply to John Liu:
The WEST owes the third world NOTHING. I note how you mention the British in the Opium war but say nothing about Japan attacking China in the 1930’s and 40’s. That was much more recent and incomparably more barbaric. But it doesn’t fit in with your anti-White views now does it!
Non-White immigrants have no “right” to be in Europe or White overseas countries. Not just no “legal” right but no right period. Immigration (which I see as an 18th and 19th century outdated phenomenon) is a privilege not a right.
If that is the case then whites have no business in America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
I note how you mention the British in the Opium war but say nothing about Japan attacking China in the 1930’s and 40’s. That was much more recent and incomparably more barbaric.
I did, read an earlier post of mine. But regardless of our issues with the Japanese, we still have every right to hold the British accountable for their crimes and plunder. Because a member of your family was raped, does not mean you need to forgive a criminal who merely burgled your family home. Where do you come up with that sort of logic?
Everything you say is utter rubbish. Just rationalization and self-deception. Europe’s wealth did not come from colonialism. Germany had only a few African territories and only for a very brief time. No serious person would say that Germany became a prosperous nation because of them. Look at how Germany was ruined after WW2. What role did Africa play in Germany’s return to modernity? NONE. The Scandanavian countries had no empires and they are the best countries in Europe.
The West as a WHOLE benefited from colonial plunder, even those not directly involved in colonialism. That corner of the world industrialized at the expense of the rest of the world.
As far as say Germany is concerned, she did come relatively late to imperialism - but she made up with it with massive atrocities in Africa, and also Asia. Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Italy, the US, Japan, Austria Hungary, all played their part in ravaging China in the 19th and early twentieth centuries. Their is a massive debt owed the Chinese by the West.
China will not call in that debt - so long as the West remains respectful.
John Liu,What about the ‘right’ of Tibetans to live freely under their own government rather than vicious Chinese colonialism and oppression?
Let me answer you. Tibetans are Chinese. Chinese do not just include Han, but people who have historically and currently live within the borders of the Chinese empire. Tibetans are Chinese in a similar way to Cherokee being American. Surely no one here would deny Cherokees are American?
Furthermore how can you say Chinese colonialism, when China’s right to Tibet is well established and recognized by every single sovereign nation in the world, including all Western nations. China does not occupy or claim any territory which is not rightfully hers, and is not recognized by everyone else in the world as righfully hers.
And by the way so-called vicious Chinese colonialism means 10 to 20 percent Han in Tibet and 80 to 90 percent Tibetans - compared with 2percent or less (and even these 2 percent racially diluted) indigenous peoples in the US and Australia.
So in that sense, white colonialism is about 40 times as bad as your so-called Chinese ‘colonialism.’
Perhaps White Nationalists should be grateful for censorship against their views. If made fully public, your pathetic illogical arguments would be blown out of the water.
The fact that your views remain underground is perhaps the reason for the little success you do have.
And even if WN views gained currency - I can hardly imagine 35 out of 100 Americans gladly sitting back and accepting Jim Crow or deportation.
Fact is the horse is bolted. Maybe you can preserve Latvia and a handful of Eastern European states as overwhelmingly white. But everywhere else - too late. Sorry.
John Liu,
We could also ask Mr. Liu about Singapore and Taiwan, whose original populations were not Chinese. How does explain their “debt”? Do they have an obligation to take in more immigrants from everywhere in order to neutralize the now-dominant Chinese?
Did China get rich off its many offshore “colonies”? As well as the ones to the west, in Central Asia? Does it now have a huge debt to pay for its historic expotation of these non-Chinese peoples?
“And furthermore, that all of Europe’s wealth and progress was merely “plunder” wrung from its hapless possessions abroad. In other words, Europeans got rich because they made others poor. Their wealth was theft. “
Speaking of aborigines in Africa, Australia and the New World, the fact is that when we encountered them, they were already poor. Poor isn’t even the word for it! They had ALWAYS been wretchedly, unimaginably poor. They were still in the Stone Age. They didn’t have a metal knife or woven blanket. Most were naked, where weather allowed. They never saw iron, glass or a wheel. [Some Africans did have iron.] They were incomparably poorer then than they are now.
As for more civilized places such as Arabia, India and China, even they are far better off today, as a result contact with the West, than they were in 1500 at the opening of the Colonial Period. They have all benefited immeasurably from the exchange. Instead, all some people like Mr. Lieu can do is hold out their hands and complain about how much we owe them!
Reply to John Liu:
I do agree that the Opium War was a disgraceful affair. An embarassment to Britain. A blotch on its history.
BUT…. it must be noted that opium is not grown in any part of the British Isles!
It was the opium growers, merchants and bankers IN INDIA, (who were then citizens of the British Empire) who agitated for this war and whose interests were being served. This had nothing to do with people back in Birmingham or Glasgow or Dublin — although it was inevitably they who were compelled to bleed and fight in the Empire’s wars.
If Mr. Liu feels aggrieved and wants to present a bill, he should hand it to India.
It was the opium growers, merchants and bankers IN INDIA, (who were then citizens of the British Empire) who agitated for this war …
Check out an outfit called the British East India Company….thing is despite the ‘India’ in the name there were not too many Indian shareholders.
Dear John Liu, would you please take a look at the numbers below?
20th century democides causing more than one million deaths. From Death by Government, Rummel, 1987.
You may dispute the exact numbers, but no serious scholar will doubt that Mao made the most victims among all tyrant in history, and certainly more victims than all the European nations combined during colonialism, (and of course he killed more Chinese than Japan ever did).
You may answer that the Chinese inflicted all this on each other. Fine. Then before you go tell Whites to apologize and repay our debts to the Chinese people, you must logically go tell the Chinese rulers to apologize and repay their own debt to the Chinese people. See what happens to you.
“…currently live within the borders of the Chinese Empire.” John Liu.
Also, a principle of Western ethics is that children cannot be held accountable for the guilt of the parents. In Italian we say: Le colpe dei padri non ricadono sui figli.
So, whatever the Eastern worldview, here in Europe, it works that way.
John Liu,
Your entire argument is based on the notion that Europeans owe non-Europeans reparations for past injustices. This ridiculous idea can easily be debunked.
Before European colonialism:
—The Saracens conquered; Spain, Portugal, Southern Italy, Sicily and invaded France.
—The Mongolians tried to overrun Europe, which resulted in the death of over half of the European population.
—The Turks invaded and/or conquered; Austria, Poland, Greece, Rhodes, Malta, Croatia, Lithuania, Albania, Hungary, Romania, Serbia, Moldavia, etc.
Between 711 A.D. and 1700 A.D. Europe was under constant invasion by the Saracens, Mongolians and the Ottoman empire. This was centuries before Europe’s colonial era. It wasn’t until Europeans organized their forces and starting driving these invaders out of Europe that they begin taking territory of their own.
European colonialism was just a response to non-European colonialism. So whatever Europe supposedly gained from colonialism is reparations for the invasions, massacres and enslavement Europeans suffered at the hands of non-Europeans for over 1000 years.
So what have we learned here today, little fella?
1) Europe owes the world nothing.
2) European nations have the right to self-determination. Which includes defending their borders and enforcing their immigration laws. Kudos to Berlusconi.
3) If the past is any indication of the future, Europe being re-colonized by Muslims will mean the end of Western civilization.
John Liu:
Your strawman arguments are ridiculous. You are an Asian with a chip on your shoulder, nothing more. Look at all the Whites kidnapped and sent to the Maghreb. Does Europe have a claim on North Africa because of this? I am White but I do not think so. Look at the Turkish conquest of Anatolia and 500 year enslavement of the Balkans? Do White Europeans have a right to reclaim Constantinople? The 700 year Arab conquest of Spain. The Turkish atrocities of the Armenians. None of this figures in your mentality does it! The real point is though, non-Whites are coming to Europe because they seek a better life, financed by the White taxpayer. They would be trying to do this had there never been any European imperialism. Nor is non-White immigration to Europe GOOD for the White people there!
John Liu, please go look these page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chinese_domination_(History_of_Vietnam) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chinese_domination_(History_of_Vietnam) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Chinese_domination_(History_of_Vietnam) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Chinese_domination_(History_of_Vietnam)
It seems that imperialist China invaded Vietnam every other week in the last two millennia. How about you pay that debt back?
I’m guessing that the reason the moderator posts the anti-White rants of Chinese nationalists is to remind the Asiaphiles that their love is not always reciprocated. We’re just lucky that there’s an ocean between us. BTW, those posters that worry about a Chinese takeover can take a break. They are spying like crazy, but in the event of major racial violence, they’ll be taking their money and splitting. They’re not cowards, but I can’t see them wasting their precious sons’ lives to stay among the foreign devils. When the milk is gone, they’ll abandon the cow.
Italian person: those figures of Rummels are ridiculous - especially those pertaining to Mao. But this is not the place to argue rebut you on this point - you can carry on believing them - that is fine with me. And even if the figures were true, it makes no difference to the argument here.
One thing however - saying Chinese are the most violent is like saying that Swedes are much more violent than Tongans - because there are more murders in Sweden than there are in Tonga.
You may answer that the Chinese inflicted all this on each other. Fine. Then before you go tell Whites to apologize and repay our debts to the Chinese people, you must logically go tell the Chinese rulers to apologize and repay their own debt to the Chinese people.
So I can burgle the house of a man who beats his wife, and demand immunity from prosecution by pointing this out to the police? Obviously not. Whatever the situation between the man and his wife, that has no bearing on the principle that the burglar should be punished, and it has no bearing on the severity of that punishment.
The fact is most ethnic groups, the Anglo Saxons probably being the exception, have suffered more at the hands of their own people, than they have from others. Probably more Italians have killed Italians than have ever been killed by non-whites. Does this, to you, justify those non-white violent acts against Italians that do occur?
On a different scale, should we assume because of the vast bloodletting on the European continent in the 20th Century - that whites as a whole, have no right, to complain about non-white misbehaviour in white countries - after all non-whites with high crime statistics could then point to whites and say ‘so what - a few rapes and murders -are nothing compared to the slaughter you whites carried out against each other not too long ago.’ Obviously if a non-white did try to justify murder or mayhem on this basis, you Mr Italian , as well as most members of this site, would find it ridiculous - as would I and most other right thinking people.
So in short, whatever Chinese ever did to Chinese, that does not cancel the debt the West owes China.
We are not Confucians. We are Europeans, and our own ethics says: how can a man say to his neighbor, ‘Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,’ when he himself does not see the log in his own eye?
If that is the case you are obviously against hypocrisy Mr Italian. That is good.
But let us consider this. There are almost one million Italian descended people in Australia. There are about 17 million in the United States. In both cases Italians vastly outnumber the original inhabitants of both Australia and the US.
Lets add on the Argentine total of 25 million - total world wide of about 25 + 17 + 1= 43 million Italians that do not live in Italy.
Note that in Argentina, the native Americans, as well as Afro-Argentinians, were basically slaughtered off to make way for your kind.
So when we consider there are only about 60 million Italians in Italy but over 40 million abroad, don’t you see that it could be seen by some people that Italians moaning about the 5 percent non-Italians in Italy (many who are whites anyway) is more than just a little hypocritical? After all there are more overseas Italians (43 million at least) than overseas Chinese (40 million).
So indeed Italian person, I am more than happy to talk of motes and specks.
Actually the ongoing discussion about who did what to whom and when is academic. The winner in the demographic contest gets to write the history.
There is no good or bad….only winners and losers. Mr.Liu is probably right that the west is dying and that the various ‘European’ stock is in dramatic decline is obvious.
But no one knows the future….a global plague, nuclear war…revolutions and riots. Will the future see the rise of another Hitler-like figure? Probably, but what race or ethno-cultural identity will he (she) promote?
Sorry to say but the only truth comes after the battle is won, and the victors get to say what truth is. Read your history. Was Alexander good or bad? How about Caesars’ Gallic Wars? Caesar and his soldiers slaughtered the Celts (who were ‘white’) man, woman and child. Any tears over that? Anyone care to discuss Attila and his deeds. The innocent died and the victors procreated. End of story.
It’s the same today. If the west chooses death then it’s death and destruction they will get. The last days won’t be pretty. BTW: whatever happened to the Etruscans?
The Scottish, some of the remnants are left after the Romans built Hadrians Wall, From Caesars assault in 60 BC to emperor Severus’ attack in 200 AD and on to Culloden in 1746 then the Clearances in the 19th century. The Gaelic language is dying. And what’s left is grown men in skirts and so proud yet. That’s life.
You can console yourselves by recounting past treacheries and heroic deeds. But it’s all in vain without progeny. Breed or die.
“…currently live within the borders of the Chinese Empire.” John Liu.
Sorry, China’s empire is of the nature of the Holy Roman Empire - an empire ruling people of closely related races and ethnicities.
In this way it differs from the British Empire, or the American Empire today.
Also, a principle of Western ethics is that children cannot be held accountable for the guilt of the parents. In Italian we say: Le colpe dei padri non ricadono sui figli.
Yes, but creditors can claim against the family estate of the deceased parents. China will demand reparations from the West, not the assignation of criminal culpability to whites today.
> Also, a principle of Western ethics is that children cannot be > held accountable for the guilt of the parents. In Italian we >say: Le colpe dei padri non ricadono sui figli.
Very interesting. Are you basing your Western ethics on secular laws or the Bible? Because I was under the impression that in the Bible it’s written the sons will bear the sins of the fathers. This web site argues both sides of the issue
http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/do-sons-bear-sins-fathers-or-not
It seems that imperialist China invaded Vietnam every other week in the last two millennia. How about you pay that debt back?
We have. China supplied massive aid to Vietnam during its war against the French and US. Ho Chi Minh was made in China. And it is well known PLA troops were in Vietnam in the 60s - I personally know several, friends of my dad. One was a sniper who killed several American soldiers.
“So when we consider there are only about 60 million Italians in Italy but over 40 million abroad, don’t you see that it could be seen by some people that Italians moaning about the 5 percent non-Italians in Italy (many who are whites anyway) is more than just a little hypocritical?”
Italians have every right to determine what kind of nation Italy will be, just as nations which have accepted Italian immigrants have the right to make that determination with respect to their own countries. Natterings about who emigrates more has no bearing upon the question at all.
When the Bible says that sons will bear the sins of the fathers, it means that children have to live with the consequences of their parents actions, not that they are locked up because daddy was a sheep thief. If daddy is in the pokey for thievery, the family is unsupported, for example. I don’t think that you’ll find any of the 613 laws of Moses requiring that a child shall be placed on trial for crimes committed by an older relative.
Like the Holy Roman Empire (the First Reich), Hitler’s empire (the Third Reich) ruled over people of closely related races and ethnicities. Does the fact that subject peoples are linguistically and racially related to their overlords make an empire a good thing?
Will China be inviting Africans to move to China and rape short Chinese people as if they were Pygmies? And when will China pay its debt to Africa, its new colony? Oh, that’s right, Chinese imperialism is good, White imperialism is bad.
Excuse the psychology, but it seems to me that these 3rd Worlders who live among us yet revile our ways doth protest too much. So proud of their own culture and nation, they claim, but unwilling to live in it, kind of like American Blacks. I think their hatred is driven by envy, and shame at the fact that they have to come here to live as they wish. Their over-the-top nationalism is a way of compensating for having betrayed and abandoned their homeland, being more Catholic than the Pope as we say.
Italians have every right to determine what kind of nation Italy will be, just as nations which have accepted Italian immigrants have the right to make that determination with respect to their own countries.
So I suppose Italian immigrants to the US were invited by the Native Americans. And they got permission from the native populations of the Pampas and the Patogonia regions of Argentina.
Does the fact that subject peoples are linguistically and racially related to their overlords make an empire a good thing?
YOu are obviously a White nationalist - so you would have to answer yes to this question.
And when will China pay its debt to Africa, its new colony? Oh, that’s right, Chinese imperialism is good, White imperialism is bad.
Sorry, the Chinese have been invited into Africa. We have not forced open the door, like whites did in the Americas and Australasia, and what they tried to do in Asia and Africa.
So really there is no such thing as Chinese imperialism. Chinese are the most tolerant race on earth. That is why the minorities in China retain their culture, language, folkways, and way of life far better than Australian aborigines and Native Americans.
John Liu:
I think it should be up to Italians and not Chinese to decide what kind of country Italy should be, thank you very much.
Ho Chi Minh was educated in Paris, not China.
John Liu,
As others in this discussion pointed out, North Africans and Arabs committed great crimes against Europeans. They invaded Spain and Sicily and occupied them for many centuries, inflicting great sufference on the local Christians during that time. Also, since the rise of Islam, Muslims raided Whites incessantly, at sea and at land, spoiling our economies, which was a major reason why Europe was backward in the Dark Ages. The Islamic Golden Age was built at the expense of Christianity. Later, in the Ottoman age, as subjects of the Ottoman Empire Africans and Middle Easterners invaded Greece and the Balkans, and inflicted more sufference, and if they hadn’t been defeated at Vienna they would have annexed the whole of Europe. Also, during that time hundreds of thousands of Whites were kidnapped along the coasts of Europe and sold as slaves by North African raiders. The Empire was built at the expense of Christians, its economy thrived on the spoils of these enslaving raids. The elite soldiers of the Ottomans, the Jannissaries, were children enslaved in such raids and grown up as loyal warriors. Muslim colonialism against Europe lasted far more centuries than European colonialism, and the crimes committed by Muslims outweight any crimes committed by Europeans. If we accept that nations owe back for past wrongs, then colonialism itself is the way Africa and the Middle East paid the debts they owed to Europe.
But how about the relationship between the West and Asian nations? Speaking of Vietnam, which China invaded many times, you say you paid your debt to her thus: “China supplied massive aid to Vietnam during its war against the French and US. Ho Chi Minh was made in China. And it is well known PLA troops were in Vietnam in the 60s - I personally know several, friends of my dad. One was a sniper who killed several American soldiers.” So you seem to think that wartime aid and military allegiance is a proper way of offering reparations. In that case, the West paid back its debt to China and the rest of Asia many times. The United States helped you drive out the Japanese, will you deny even that? Not only directly by sending war materiel to China along the Burma road, but also indirectly by engaging Japan. China was losing before America entered the war. So according to your own logic, the West already paid its debts to China (and the rest of Asia which was likewise threatened by Japan).
As for Subsaharian Africa, the West offered her enormous amounts of financial aid over the last decades. This aid far outweights the evils of colonialism.
So as you can see, the West already paid all its debts back. Case closed.
In any case, I don’t accept the statement itself that nations owe to each other for past wrongs. Abuse committed at war, or abuse committed by the conqueror on the conquered, doesn’t originate debts from a legal standpoint. Concepts such as creditor and debtor only apply among citizens of the same nation indebted to each other, or citizens of different nations who have international agreements. Not only abuse committed by the conqueror on the conquered, but in general any kind of abuse that is legal when it happens (such as slavery when it come sto the past relations between White and Black Americans, which at the time was legal), doesn’t originate legal debts. Any lawyer will confirm this.
So if you are to claim that the West or other nations are indebted for crimes committed during colonization, such claim only works at the ethical level, not at the legal level. Since we’re talking about ethics, not law, my point is that your position only makes sense in the context of Confucian ethics, not in the context of Western ethics.
You should also consider how absurd it would be if those principles were to be applied consistently. What should the Mongolians do, then? Their ancestors invaded nearly every nation in the world many times in history! Is your position that Europe, China, Japan, India and the Islamic world should all demand enormous reparations from Mongolia? This is clearly impossibile as she would be overwhelmed.
Your burglar analogy aimed at refuting my statements about Mao’s crimes (“So I can burgle the house of a man who beats his wife, and demand immunity from prosecution by pointing this out to the police? Obviously not.”) is fallacious, because this discussion is not about law and prosecution, it is about ethics. Ethical positions must be consistent. Either you apply the same ethical standard to everyone, or you don’t. You claim that Western governments must apologize and pay for their crimes, but you will not accept that the Chinese communist government must apologize an pay for its crimes. This is a double standard and undermines your own positions.
In fact, the extent of your use of double standards is appalling. You see Europeans imperialism as a crime, but you don’t see Chinese imperialism as such.
Also, if you say that Tibet is part of China because it has been part of China for a long time, then according to that logic, you also have to agree that Spain and Portugal have a right to conquer back South America as it was part of Spain and Portugal for a long time, and you should say the same about all the nations colonized by Europeans since the 16th century. But you obviously don’t agree with this. So you’re simply inconsistent.
In the case of Italy, you seem to disagree with Berlusconi’s rejection of North Africans. But North Africa has been a part of the Roman Empire for a very long time! So North Africa is part of Italy just like Tibet is part of China. Hasn’t Italy a right to do whatever she want with one of her provinces? So again, according to your own logic, your positions don’t hold up.
I forgot another one of your points, that Italians are hypocrites for being everywhere in the world, such as in Australia, while at the same time rejecting immigrant. I’m sorry, the big difference is that Australians and the Australian government wants us there.
We Italians emigrated to the US as long as it was legal, which is to say as long as we were wanted.
“So I suppose Italian immigrants to the US were invited by the Native Americans. And they got permission from the native populations of the Pampas and the Patogonia regions of Argentina.”
Of course not, and your odd statement does not follow at all. That you don’t like Italians emigrating to North or South America has no bearing upon whether citizens in a democracy have the right to determine their own immigration policies. Your basic argument, stripped of its bombast and persiflage, is this: Italians emigrated to nations whose aboriginal populations were treated badly,therefore Italians in Italy ought to have no say in the immigration policies of “their” nation. The logic is so odd that it’s difficult even to point out its flaws.
For better or worse Amerinds had nothing to do with the nations in question, as those countries were created by others. This of course in keeping with most of human history, China included. The United States, Argentina and the others set their own immigration laws, in accordance with which Italians emigrated. So what? The original celtic populations of the British Isles did not invite the Romans, Angles, Saxon or Jutes, and those groups in turn did not invite the Normans. By your logic only the celtic remnants in Great Britain have legitimate political authority.
Why are Italians or Americans obliged to surrender control of their own nations because you think amerinds were mistreated? This is the logic you always apply when a Western nation is in question, never when it’s your own. What Chinese ever claimed that his or another’s ancestor’s alleged misdeed obliged China to do anything except follow its own self-interest?
“Chinese are teh most tolerant peopel on Earth”..John Liu
In fact the Han Chinese are probably the most ethno-centric people on earth. Just look at what is going on in Tibet. China has 1.4 billion people and about 94% are Han. They shouldn’t feel threatened. Nevertheless Uyghurs in Xinjiang and Tibetans in Tibet are brutally mistreated. I knew this Chinese girl who married a black male. Her ENTIRE FAMILY disowned her.
The Chinese were not invited into Africa, they paid bribes to the ruling thugs of those benighted countries. The Chinese will take what they want, and the local Big Men will get rich and keep the natives in line. It’s cheaper than invading and it doesn’t alarm people as much, but it’s still empire, pretty much the way that American companies ran the banana republics of Central America. And pretty much the same way that China has moved into Cambodia too. I know it can be difficult to accept that your Motherland is an imperialist harlot, but it’s time for the young Chinese nationalist to grow up.
John Liu
According to your reasoning, the Han Chinese people should pay reparations to the middle east and central and eastern Europe for the mongol invasions ranging from Attila the Hun to Genghis Khan. Certainly the Han Chinese should pay for the Iraqi-syrian irragation system destroyed by Genghis Kahn back 800 years ago.
You see John, way back when the Han Chinese population grew enough so that they could stop the Mongol invaders. Then the Chinese started to build the great wall of China and pushed the Mongols west.
Because the Han Chinese fought back against the Mongol invaders, the Mongols went west to the middle east and Europe.
By resisting the Mongols the Han turned them towards Europe and the Middle East. Whatever the Mongols did in those areas is all the fault of China.
You should immediately make reparations.
Note that in Argentina, the native Americans, as well as Afro-Argentinians, were basically slaughtered off to make way for your kind. Posted by John Liu at 9:46 PM on May 13
Hey John, how about some references re those non existent Afro-Argentinians. No Africans ever were imported or immigrated to Argentina. Slavery of Africans was illegal in all Spanish colonies from 1498 as per Isabella’s decree.
As far as slaughtering the natives, that is one country the Spanish did not disturb the natives. Until the building of the railroads and the invention of refrigerated ships and the McCormick reaper in the 1840’s, the Spanish never left the tiny port of Buenos Aires for the interior.
Some Indians married with the White immigrants. Many became the gauchos or cowboys, greatly admired as American cowboys and Spanish vaqueros are.
You must be majoring in some sort of White Privilege studies course taught by Tim Wise. What’s up, not able to cope with math and science?
John Liu
I work with many Chinese physicians and nurses who were raised in China. They have told me about the Chinese toilet situation as compared with the American toilet situation, or even the African bush toilet situation.
If you have ever lived in China you know what I am talking about.
Enough said.
“As for Japan, I have always held that China has the moral right, indeed duty, to invade and do what it likes with her - but of course this should be of no concern to people on this website.”
John Liu
Verry interresting John. Would you like to explain why?
You claim that Western governments must apologize and pay for their crimes, but you will not accept that the Chinese communist government must apologize an pay for its crimes. This is a double standard and undermines your own positions.
Italian man, for heavens sake, it is for the Chinese people and Chinese people only to judge their communist government. How can one apologize to oneself for misdeeds committed agaisnt oneself. The fact is most Chinese people accept that Chairman Mao was a great if flawed leader. They accept that in spite of his flaws Chairman Mao was exactly the type of leader that China needed at the time. That is a judgement that is the right and only the right of the Chinese people to make. Surely you, as a racial nationalist, can understand this.
As for debts owed by the West to China, their are indeed moral debts that are outstanding. It is indisputable that the West ravaged and abused China for about a century for its own benefit.
It is ridiculous to say that these debts, moral or financial, can be written off because of purported misdeeds of Chinese against Chinese.
Most races have harmed themselves more than have been harmed by other races. That does not justify one race invading and exploiting another race.
Analogy: If China suddenly invaded a part of Italy and executed just 1000 Italians, Italians would be outraged and would rightly demand recompense from China. Would you as an Italian say, “no that is OK, many more Italians and killed by other Italians each year anyway, and we have had bad Italian governments before who dragged us into wars with millions dead - so what the Chinese are doing is peanuts and we should just let them get away with it.” Of course not. But many, many Chinese suffered the depredations of the West - and you expect us to just say nothing about it? You are the one guilty of the double standard.
As an aside, most Chinese view Mao as a great man - even though many suffered during the Great Leap Forward. And that is their right to judge their own history. His revolution was, on a proportional basis, and given the vast social change he brought to China, was less bloody than the French, American, or Russian revolutions. But this is not the place to argue this point.
Now you will argue that since China is like the Holy Roman Empire, and Taiwan and Tibet are part of this empire, then China’s claim on those countries isn’t really imperialism. So I will ask you, what makes Taiwan and Tibet part of China?
Italian man, your ignorance is breathtaking.
Taiwan: Taiwan is a part of China. Just as East Germany was a part of hypothetical Germany. The Taiwanese themselves see themselves as part of China. That is why they call themselves ‘Republic of China’. So the dispute has nothing to do with Chinese ‘imperialism’. It has everything to do with an internal Chinese political squabble - one that is not the business of foreign busybodies such as yourself.
Tibet: As I have said before China is a multi-ethnic state. There are Han Chinese, Mongolian Chinese, Uighur Chinese, Tibetan Chinese and many more different flavours of Chinese. As with many Western nations, we have our internal problems, but this does not undermine the status of Tibet as part of China, anymore than Northern Ireland should not be part of the UK, or Hawaii part of the US, or Australia under white rule.
This is not the place to explore this history of Tibet, suffice to say its status as part of China is not recognized by any country in the world, and it is not seen as occupied territory by the UN or any country in the world - your own included.
In fact the Taiwanese government claims not only Tibet as part of China, but also all of Mongolia. And the US government clearly recognized Tibet as part of China well before communist rule - when China was ruled by the same political party that rules Taiwan today.
Case closed.
Weren’t the original Vietnamese back 3,000 years ago a refugee ethnic minority fleeing a Han Chinese invasion and possession of their original S. China homeland?
John Liu: I don’t know what your problem is. Perhaps you are an overseas Chinese. This may explain your bitterness. You keep using the Amerinds as an excuse to “justify” the destruction of every White country on earth (I’m not sure where a country like Mexico fits into your pantheon of racial mubo-jumbo). You never explain WHY it is good for European countries to have non-Whites living there. If boatloads and boatloads of Italians were arriving in China’s waters to take advantage of Chinese taxpayers and demographically undermine the Han I would not support those Italians at all or try to justify their actions by saying that the Huns had invaded Europe or the Mongols had conquered Russia or that China may have passed the black death on to Europe. I wouldn’t say it was “right” because the Turks had conquered Constantinople and enslaved the Balkan peoples of Europe for 500 years or that the Barbary pirates enslaved over 1 million Europeans in the Maghreb. I would be ashamed of what those Italians were doing to China and my sympathies would be completely for the Chinese to repatriate those Italians immediately. You are just a very bitter person who doesn’t like Caucasians and that’s okay, but you never have explained HOW it benefits White countries to have non-Whites living there. Are you emotionally mature enough to admit that White countries in Europe are much better off and safer and have more social cohesion without the presence of non-Whites?
“As for Japan, I have always held that China has the moral right, indeed duty, to invade and do what it likes with her - but of course this should be of no concern to people on this website.” …. John Liu
“Taiwan is a part of China. Just as East Germany was a part of hypothetical Germany. The Taiwanese themselves see themselves as part of China. That is why they call themselves ‘Republic of China’. So the dispute has nothing to do with Chinese ‘imperialism’. It has everything to do with an internal Chinese political squabble - one that is not the business of foreign busybodies such as yourself.”
Taiwan is a part of China? When and how did it become a part of China, M. Liu?
“Taiwan is a part of China? When and how did it become a part of China, M. Liu?”
The new approach was condemned by the UN’s refugee agency, Medecins Sans Frontieres, the Vatican and Italian opposition MPs, who called it “a disgrace”.
This statement is a disgrace. If Jimmy Carter back in the 70’s would’ve adopted this policy, Miami, Fl may have been saved, instead, this area was overun by Castro’s misfit criminals whom we generously took in. Italy is smart to adopt this polciy, why can’t the US do the same when it come to immigration?
Mr. Liu’s system of reparations is so convoluted that it can never truly be applied in real life. Of course, this doesn’t stop him from trying to use it against the West. By the way, what does an Opium War with the British have to do with the right of Chinese (or others) to enter Italy or the other parts of the non-British West?
Taiwan is part of China? WHO says it is… except the Chinese?
Ok, this is getting ridiculous - lets put it this way: if all the British had ever done was invade and conquer Guernsey and the Isle of Man, I would refrain from calling them imperialistic. So I think most can see how the analogy applies to China in respect of the island of Taiwan.
Mr Liu, my compliments: you’ve just given a moral justification to the Spanish (which never had real colonies in N.Africa) to invade and colonize Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia to revenge 800 years of north-african colonialism.
The Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians will be glad to know that they have now moral justification for banding together and perform an invasion of Turkey which colonized (and killed, tortured, enslaved) them for 500 years and that debt hasn’t still been collected by the south-eastern europeans.
I suppose that if one day the Iranians get rid of islam, then they should nuke all the arabs for invading them and forcing Islam in place of their previous zoroastrian religion.
Regarding Italy: this country is adopting an hard stance against immigration because Italy is the only western country where an ethno-nationalist anti-immigration party, the Northern League, has taken control of the national government thanks to their success at the elections that makes them necessary to the Berlusconi’s party PdL to remain in power.
