Conference for Men Will Have to Hire Police Protection, Organizer Says

Elisha Anderson, Detroit Free Press, June 3, 2014

Organizers of a controversial conference scheduled to be held in Detroit later this month said they must pay police to provide security during the event, because of threats.

The International Conference on Men’s Issues is scheduled to take place at the DoubleTree Fort Shelby in downtown Detroit on June 26-28, but thousands of people signed a petition calling for it to be canceled.

Dean Esmay is helping to organize the conference put on by A Voice for Men and said the group’s mission is to fight for specific issues confronting men and boys, such as homelessness, suicide prevention and incarceration.

But the group has been critical of feminism, and Esmay said the presumption that one is “guilty until proven innocent” is a problem men have in sexual assault cases and domestic violence cases. The group’s positions have drawn harsh critics locally and even internationally.

“The threats have escalated to include death threats, physical violence against our staff and other guests as well as damage to the property,” said a letter provided to the Free Press by a group official, who said it was sent by hotel staff.

The letter, dated May 29, said that a minimum of seven officers will be needed in the hotel at all times during the conference but that could increase and the group hosting the event will be responsible for the cost.

{snip}

Meanwhile, more than 2,300 signatures appeared on an online petition Monday on change.org expressing opposition to the conference and calling for it to be canceled.

“The petition to cancel the conference has worldwide support, and we’re getting the word out almost exclusively through social media,” said Kelly Jackson.

She started the petition last week.

{snip}

Esmay said more than 200 people are expected to come to Detroit for the conference that will feature 14 speakers. He estimated the cost for police will be about $20,000.

Based on some of what they’ve seen on social media and petitions, Esmay thinks there’s a good chance people will protest.

“We would welcome them if they’re peaceful protesters,” he said. “We protest ourselves. . . . It’s the American way.”

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  • Andy

    I am quite sympathetic to the Manosphere and support a patriarchy, but A Voice for Men is a bit pathetic. It’s bad enough when women organize to whine and show how oppressed they are. It’s just not *manly*.

    Not that they should have to hire police, obviously.

    • Mason Gull

      AVFM mostly older guys who were screwed by the divorce courts. It’s easy to dismiss them as whiny, but the child support system is very skewed in favor of women (who initiate most divorces) and the men’s rights movement is one of the few groups that address it.

      • Andy

        Men certainly have plenty to be angry about, but putting up posters portraying themselves as victims is not doing anything to improve society. Even if their mimicry of women got them “equal protection under the law”, it would do nothing but damage to manhood.

        • Arlene Erickson

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        • maxsnafu

          “…putting up posters portraying themselves as victims is not doing anything to improve society.”

          Yeah, the truth is no defense.

          • Andy

            When I think “victim”, I think “helpless”. And certainly many men, on their own, find themselves helpless against “the system”. But men, as a group, are not helpless. When men organize as men, they should be talking about what they’re going to do, not what’s been done to them.

            As I stated above, I support a patriarchy. Men get to lead, but that also means they have to lead.

      • I’d actually recommend that you look at the Contributors Roster and consider if these names fit with your narrow view “older guys who were screwed by the divorce courts”?

        1) Erin Pizzey
        2) Dr. Tara J. Palmatier
        3) Karen Straughan
        4) Diana Davidson
        5) Suzanne McCarley
        6) Alison Tieman
        7) Della Burton
        8) Kristal Garcia
        9) Janet Bloomfield

        • Mason Gull

          Pardon me. I forgot to mention that there are some middle aged women within the movement’s intellectual leadership.

          • Middle aged? Oh boy – are you inviting being savaged by the Honey Badgers. P¬))

          • SoulInvictus

            “savaged by Honey Badgers”

            I don’t even know what one of those is (cougar?) but it sounds kind of hot.
            Or maybe getting wailed on in Call of Duty Ghost (if you play it, you get the joke).

          • Know Your Meme – In 2002, the Guinness Book of World Records named the honey badger the most fearless animal on the planet. It can be bitten by a venomous snake, fall asleep process the venom and wake up. Women who defy feminism and speak out for equality and Men’s Rights are known as Honey Badgers – and there are 9 listed above. Erin Pizzey has the distinction of being Honey Badger 1.

          • SoulInvictus

            Yeah, I looked it up after and ended up on the video eventually.
            Hilarious for anyone else who hasn’t seen it by the way.
            “Honey badger don’t give a sh**. So nasty!”

            Literally laughed out loud.
            Thanks for that.

            (and I still think “honey badger” sounds hot. But hey, I like fiery women.;)

    • CourtneyfromAlabama

      I am curious about who most of the protestors have been.

      • propagandaoftruth

        I’m curious why they chose Detroit. Suicidal? Alimony and child support payments a burden?

        • SoulInvictus

          Probably cheap. Might have even been some incentives offered by the city to hold something there.
          Though truly, would a real conference for men be held anywhere but Vegas? That or a gun friendly dude ranch out west…

  • MekongDelta69

    “Organizers of a controversial conference…”

    1. A “men’s” conference is now ‘controversial’? Seriously?

    2. Why do these ‘men’ need police protection? Really?

    I’m living in an alternate universe. I guess I took the red pill instead of the blue pill decades ago.

    • JSS

      Come on now Mekong even having men’s restrooms is controversial in some places, so of course a conference is basically criminal.

      • BillMillerTime

        Especially restrooms with urinals. In Jul 2012, Obama’s Navy will not install urinals in its new “gender neutral” aircraft carriers. “The change heralded by the Gerald R. Ford class of carriers,” reports CNN, “is one of a number of new features meant to improve sailors’ quality of life and reduce maintenance costs. … Omitting urinals lets the Navy easily switch the designation of any restroom … helping the ship adapt to changing crew compositions over time.”

        In Sweden, the rot is even more advanced. Sweden’s Left Party suggested recently a law ordering men to sit to urinate.

        • CourtneyfromAlabama

          Women shouldn’t be on aircraft carriers in the first place. As far as Sweden goes, that appears to be a really messed up country in regards to gender roles. The men are too soft and the women are becoming more and more butch. It is sad. That country is known for its beautiful people, historically.

          • Zaporizhian Sich

            It never occurred to those women that an aircraft carrier in a real shooting war will be one of the most likely ships to be sunk, or blown out of the water. Maybe when they see a nearby ship disintegrate because a missile penetrated then exploded in the magazines they won’t be so quick to get aboard one. I suspect they won’t be so keen on being in a submarine 2,000 feet down once the torpedoes start surging through the water either. Especially when they can hear the pings of one’s SONAR seeker that locked on to their boat and ins rushing in for the kill at 80 knots or more.

        • Garrett Brown

          Man, the navy just gets worse and worse.

    • Anything leftists disagree with is demonized out of proportion and it will ultimately be threatened. I have no doubt that amren has security precautions in place.

    • dd121

      “Controversial” is the word liberals use when they disagree with something conservatives do. It doesn’t really mean controversial.

    • connorhus

      Feminism has always relied on real Men being individuals that can be manipulated or destroyed piecemeal. Nothing scares the beejeebus out of the feminist shills more than a group of Men comparing notes. They know individually Men can be controlled and brow beaten but the problem compounds exponentially as Men band together.

      • Singh1699

        So, you mean kind of like destorying the family (clan) structure?

        All I pretty much do is unite the clan as I know that structure and our (jatt) ingenuity takes care of the rest.

        5 villages, fortified and preparing for war ain’t bad for a kid in his 20’s. 😀

        And, remember something getting revenge is the most noble thung you can do.

        Off the internet, then.

        Bye. You motherfuckers who I’m only related to patrilinealy. (Which should be all that matters). 🙂
        ਖਾਲਿਸਤਾਨ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਾਬਾਦ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ | |

    • SoulInvictus

      They held this in the wrong part of the country. Anywhere within 500 miles of me and it wouldn’t have gotten a second glance.
      They should have made it part conference and part motorcycle rally.
      I’d certainly pay to see some Hell’s Angels security types getting yelled at by Code Pink or whoever. For like 2 seconds anyway.

  • Luca

    If this conference were exclusively for Muslim men there would be no outcry.

  • David Ashton

    So the government is not responsible for impartial protection of free speech and assembly? Sounds like Europe.

    • Sick of it

      Apparently, it’s somehow illegal to uphold the law unless you are a police officer…and yet the police have no duty to protect the public. What a sham!

      • David Ashton

        In Britain the police have just arrested the parents because their son is too fat.

  • This story sounds so familiar, so deja vu, for some reason. I can’t put my finger on it.

    Why is this conference so controversial all of a sudden? Why is there a feminazi jihad against it? The nutbar of Santa Monica.

    • CourtneyfromAlabama

      Good point!

  • Lewis33

    I’m guess a large part of the distress from Kelly Jackson (started online petition) and others is the amount of diversity in the scheduled speakers. Got’s to warn these blacks and women to get back to the lib plantation were they belong!

  • ncpride

    The $PLC has declared A Voice for Men a hate group, so they must be doing something right. Read what they have to say about them on change(dot)org……..they are totally reaching and grasping by trying to blame this group for the nutter that seemingly hated blonde women and used that as an excuse to shoot several people…. never mind that he actually shot more MEN. Of course a woman started the petition…. now sit down and shut up all you rapists, abusive, misogynistic pigs, you have NO voice in the new America! /sarc

    • Ron Cheaters

      Groups for women to sit around and dream up ways to destroy men is A-OK and encouraged.

      Groups for men to gather and share stories about how the system has broken them and to find out ways to keep away from that system…. well I guess there’s no money in that.

      It is Detroit, after all, women and chillerins abandon the sinking ship first.

  • Jesse James

    In the new Amerika being sane is fast becoming a disability.

    • Zaporizhian Sich

      It’s becoming a liability I daresay, the more insane society and people get, the less I want either anywhere near me. I would rather be locked in an abandoned church fighting off a Russian witch intent on killing me than live in this waking nightmare without end. To be white these days is to be subject to the 21rst century witch hunt.

  • [Guest]

    >>>But the group has been critical of feminism…

    Oh, my! Can’t have THAT!

  • Dave West

    They must be silenced before more and more in the American public find out that the male/female wage gap is complete bull. The libtards don’t want another one of their created classes of “victims” living under the “tyranny” of a “white, heterosexual, male dominated” America to be invalidated.

    • Alexandra1973

      Agreed. The so-called wage gap is complete nonsense.

      I think what they’re aiming for is equal pay for ALL jobs regardless of risk. A secretary would get paid the same as someone doing a dangerous job.

      Just another way to redistribute wealth, when you get right down to it.

  • Tom Thumb

    What’s with this guy holding a conference in Detroit?

    • r j p

      What kind of conference would be held in downtown DeToilet?

      The kind that would be attended by gubmint employees and HR personal who have no idea what the square root button on a calculator does. This is not going to be a summit of wits.

    • MBlanc46

      That’s where Dean Esmay lives.

  • dd121

    If you disagreed with the Catholic church in the middle ages, they might burn you at the stake. In the 21st century, disagree with a liberal, and the punishment is only slightly less.

    • PvtCharlieSlate

      Slightly off topic.
      Written on the wall in a bar’s men’s room: In Europe the facists goose step; in America they jog.

  • Dave West

    This could be a blessing is disguise, all these commie protesters will be in the streets of Detroit; maybe numerous black thugs will decide it’s a good day to play the knockout game!

  • Truthseeker

    If you’re a member of the majority or an otherwise predominant group, you don’t get a space to be exclusive. Whites can’t have their own things. Men can’t have their own things. Straight people can’t have their own things. You’re forbidden from looking out for your own interests or even considering whether you have any. You’ll be monitored for some degree of “inclusiveness” or you’ll be castigated as some sort of bigot.

    • LHathaway

      That’s more their rationalization after the fact. They’ve chosen their favorites and then come up with an explanation for doing so afterward. In this day an age, rarely must they give their reasons, being so rarely are they questioned.

  • r j p

    Speaker Carnell Smith (certified negro) is a nationally recognized expert in paternity fraud.

    .
    What negro pays child support?

  • Bon, From the Land of Babble

    From the petition site, Change org:

    The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) declared Men’s Rights Advocates to be a hate group back in 2012. So how is it that, in 2014, the Doubletree Hotel in Detroit, MI, is going to host the first international conference for Men’s Rights?

    MRAs are linked to the recent mass shooting in UCSB, wherein a young man declared that he would exact revenge on all the women who had rejected him. MRAs are linked to false rape statistics, further perpetuating the dangerous myth that women “make it up for attention.” MRAs are linked to threats of rape and murder against women who dare to speak out against them. Simply search the phrase “MRA” and you’ll see the violence, hatred, bigotry, and misogyny that MRAs support.

    Tell the Doubletree Hotel that sponsoring A Voice for Men and hosting the Men’s Rights conference puts them in bed with domestic terrorism. Tell them to stop. Tell them that this is unacceptable.

    I hate radical, militant feminists as much as I hate the SPLC. They are an embittered,angry, lonely dried up group of femens that destroy everything they touch and seek to turn boys into girls. They have caused untold damage to the public schools, especially at the elementary level.

    • Martel

      The black feminist looks like boxer James Tony.

    • CourtneyfromAlabama

      They make the majority of women look bad. That is just one of the many things that irritates me about them. When white men get discriminated against, white women get hurt too, well, unless said woman is a lesbian. I don’t see how feminism works for women unless they are lesbians.

      • connorhus

        Or coalburners…..

      • IstvanIN

        Actually I don’t see how even White lesbians benefit…. I mean, for example Detroit is Detroit regardless.

        • CourtneyfromAlabama

          Detroit is just a bad place for whites. I am talking about feminism in itself.

          • IstvanIN

            I wasn’t very clear, I meant I don’t see how a society run by non-whites benefits White Lesbians, as in who wants to live in a world-wide Detroit. White men invented the idea of rights, not to mention civilization where women were not treated like chattel.

          • CourtneyfromAlabama

            Oh, okay. Yeah, in my original comment I was referring to how feminism doesn’t benefit women unless they are lesbians. That was why your response about black run Detroit threw me off. Thanks for clarifying.

          • Ella

            I know some ardent feminists who have families, but they deny the realities of differences between boys and girls. They get PAID to shoot their mouths off against societal norms. So may articles at AmRen spell out the employment benefits of being a “social agent of change.” Soon, we will have no good jobs left for us as they bar conservatives and/or Christians from the workplace through wordy job descriptions.

          • MikeofAges

            In public they deny the differences between boys and girls, and advise others to do the same. I have heard, however, when it comes to their own boys, it’s hands off. Perhaps in the contemporary era, even that has changed.

      • redpill99

        what’s your opinion of lesbianism?

        • CourtneyfromAlabama

          I don’t like it. What is your opinion of it?

          • redpill99

            i’m a guy and i’ve seen girl-girl in porn and i really wish i was born a woman so i could engage in girl-girl. i’m afraid if i have a daughter she will inherit genetically my excitement at girl on girl.

          • r j p

            You are an idiot.

          • Wholly Unconvinced

            Succinct and well put, upvote for you, sir.

          • paul marchand

            Pretty funny. Ah hear ya !

    • Ograf

      Tell us how you really feel .

    • Diana Moon Glampers

      About 20 years ago, a female relative asked me how I could be against feminism. My answer then, as now: I am neither ugly nor a lesbian. Thus, feminism and egalitarian movements are not beneficial to me.

  • MBlanc46

    Integrationists, feminists, immigrationists, it’s all the same. Silence anyone who dares gainsay them.

  • CourtneyfromAlabama

    I just went to the conference’s webpage. Five of the fifteen speakers are women (one mulatto and four who are white). The rest are male (all white except for one black). One of the male speakers was actually a big part of the feminist movement but then decided he didn’t want to be a part of it later. Another male speaker stands up for “men and boys….and the women who love them”. Other speakers are Youtube sensations.

    I am curious now about who most of the protestors are. The people leaving comments and accusing the group of hate appear to be a mix of men and women. They just sound like a bunch of Marxists……probably mostly under 40.

    • connorhus

      Never under estimate the the stupidity of some Mangina’s to sell out their own gender in the hopes of getting some. We see it everyday with Liberals selling out their own race so it’s nothing new.

      • CourtneyfromAlabama

        I agree. That is a huge part of the problem.

  • IstvanIN

    No one should have to pay for security to protect a private meeting of people who wish to discuss concerns of interest to them. We pay taxes to the government to keep the peace for all citizens, or so I thought.

  • MindHead99

    The left wingers wish to censor any information they disagree with. The left sends out their goon squads to extinguish the free spread of ideas. In their world view Men aren’t allowed to defend themselves just as whites are supposed to submit to the multi-cultural onslaught waged against them. I saw one of AVFM’s videos where Womanist demonstrators blocked the entrance to a conference in Canada. The whole women’s studies industry finds AVFM a threat just as the Black Power industry finds Amren to be a threat.

  • freddy_hills

    I prefer traditional gender roles. But I fully support equal rights for women with the single exception of women in combat. However, there are a number of areas in which men are discriminated against. There are also a number of areas where men need special attention and are being neglected. The article mentions these as homelessness, suicide prevention and incarceration. It seems as though those protesting simply hate men and don’t want to see any male issues addressed. I think one of the reasons is that the radical left has built its brand on “white male privilege”. So anything that highlights the needs of men is going to be attacked. I think men in general and whites in particular should get behind men’s rights.

    • CourtneyfromAlabama

      Based on my experiences going to Amren conferences etc…. this movement is mostly going to continue to focus on the white race overall, as it should, with men leading the way, and white women supporting them. Likewise, I think this movement automatically stands up for white men’s rights by default, in a healthy way, as it is.

  • Ella

    Feminists should not have any children if they do not care about the mental health issues of males. I feel sorry for any male child in a feminist home with an absentee father. Suicide, drugs, fighting wars, and other high risk behaviours tend to be a concern of any parent. Do feminists prefer mentally ill and violent men in their communities?

    • NoName

      “Do feminists prefer mentally ill and violent men in their communities?”

      I have always thought that they do. It’s because of their pathological desire to always be coddled as victims.

  • willbest

    Women should teach women to not do violence. Making the men pay for police protection is a form of victim blaming. #NoAllWomen

  • ViktorNN

    It’s the height of absurdity that the left which is supposedly so in favor of free speech and open debate now routinely tries to silence those they disagree with. They’re little tinpot totalitarians lost in a haze of doublethink.

  • Dave West

    The left does this all the time, if some conservative group ever did this to, say Sandra Fluke, the commies would cry bloody murder. They’re hypocritical crybabies. It will backfire on them eventually and that is going to be a very funny day!

    • Zaporizhian Sich

      It’ll backfire on them alright, but the results will be anything but funny. A lot of people are going to die as a result.

  • Dave West

    I’m sure that fact that it wasn’t mostly women who stormed the beaches of Normandy is because they “weren’t given the equal opportunity” to do so.

  • 4teepee

    The left has a big problem with free speech. They simply cannot reject their old Leninist mindset. The left believes that free speech leads the masses to incorrect thinking. Free speech, therefore, must be opposed.

  • jayvbellis

    Vladimir Putin and his Cossacks have the right policy with these FEMEN, Feminst extremists:

    Whips
    Arrest, prosecution, 2years hard labor in Siberia.

    Let’s contact the Russians and ask if they’ll take some of our FEMEN, Feminist extremists.

  • WR_the_realist

    It takes so little these days to get the “tolerant left” to bare its fangs.

  • Jim

    Well, geez, the threat of death is business as usual in Detroit! 🙂

  • Mason Gull

    I don’t think the “inequities” in the divorce courts are exaggerated at all, but agree with some of your criticism. I was just saying that the movement attracts people because they seriously address an issue that nobody else wants to touch.

  • saxonsun

    How does it feel, guys, to get your karma?

  • Singh1699

    Wars are best planned in secret.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ | |

  • Anyone’s dream destination for a conference would have to be Detroit, with totalitarian feminists trying to shut you down being the icing on the cake.

  • CourtneyfromAlabama

    I don’t understand women who resort to that sort of thing in the first place (hitting anyone). It seems to be popular in the MTV pop culture/ slash/ hispanic and black “tough girl”, finger flying in the air, Jerry Springer, “in your face” garbage. Some white women have caught on to the culture and done it themselves, but they aren’t as bad.

    I myself have never hit anyone. I just don’t have it in me at all. It isn’t in my nature. I would never hit another woman, and I wouldn’t dare try to hit a man. It is actually very easy for men to win arguments with me in person (if an argument even starts at all). The man usually just has to say one sentence with a certain tone, and I don’t talk back. The “disagreement” ends right then and there.

    The way we all act on the internet, of course, is an entirely different matter. It is so easy to come across as meaner on the internet than you really are in person.

  • Sick of it

    Playing their game does not produce the same results that they achieve. We should do as our ancestors did.

  • Sick of it

    Busy combating racism and anti-homosexual protests.

  • Spikeygrrl

    They’re holding the conference in DETROIT and they’re worried about FEMINISTS??!! Hel-LLOOOO!!!

  • CourtneyfromAlabama

    I was agreeing with your post until I got closer to the end. I was agreeing with all the stuff about white male achievement, because it is true, and most on here would agree.

    But then I got closer to the end of your post…..

    What percentage of white women are you claiming are teaming up with blacks against white men? Please give us an exact percentage.

    These divisive comments are what the enemy wants to see. When we have people on here making accusations like this, how do you expect white women to react? Of course we are going to be hurt over it. But I got in trouble under another article by simply responding to this sort of thing. Unbelievable.

    • connorhus

      I would say just about all White Women who vote Democrat are teaming up with Blacks. They don’t have to be breeding with them to jump on the Affirmative Action train, they may not even be knowingly teaming up with them but it amounts to the same thing politically.

      • CourtneyfromAlabama

        The voting gap isn’t as big as people on here make it out to be. It is usually around a 7% point difference between white males and white females, with white females being slightly more likely to vote Democrat. The 7% point difference is insignificant after observing how every minority group votes compared to white men.

        Also, in traditional parts of the country, women who are married vote exactly like their husbands. I see that here in Alabama all around me.

        After going into everything I just went into, I don’t see how statements like “white women team up with blacks” are justified on this website. Do you?

        • connorhus

          I would say that all White Feminist team up with Blacks. Not all White Women are Feminist to the core however so therefore not all White Women are allied with Blacks.

          I haven’t seen one Woman yet though married, single, Democrat or whatever that didn’t use the advantages the Feminist have gained for them when the opportunity presented itself. Many Women who claimed to be “Not like that” sure became like that when divorce time came around, etc. etc. etc.

          So depending on Dr. X’s current experiences I can see where he is coming from while also seeing your point.

          • CourtneyfromAlabama

            I think women should be held accountable for their actions, but the people who gave them the rights to do what they do need to be held accountable as well, especially when talking about women working and women voting. It seems that a lot of men are brainwashed on those two topics (women working and voting) just as much as women are.

            It is so ingrained in our culture at this point that blaming women in that regard does no good. Instead, we should go back in history to the people who gave women the right to do these things and put the blame there.

            At the end of the day, white men and women need to be working together. I recognize that a lot of modern day white women are behaving in ways they shouldn’t be, but I also think a lot of the claims made on here are irresponsible and divisive.

            I think we as whites have a very messed up modern day culture that we created, and we should be trying to do what we can to fix it. The fact is that our people overall, regardless of sex, have been negatively brainwashed by this culture to varying degrees.

            As far as divorce goes, I have never divorced a man before, and never plan on it, so that is something I can’t comment on or even relate to.

  • Bill

    The victims have to pay for security? Why not get it from the perps/protesters!?!?

  • American_cavalier

    The Police? Phewwww! Hire 1% Biker clubs for protection as cadre for me vollunteers who put thier walk with the talk they make about mens issues.

  • A Freespeechzone

    If these threats were against a liberal event; the full resources of LE would’ve used to prosecute the offenders.

    Maybe it’s best to be well-armed; LE won’t protect the attendees. Per the SCOUS, self defense is your responsibility.

  • Sasquatch

    I have checked out what AVFM actually says direct from the source on numerous occasions, I have found, every single time, that they are highly reasonable.

    On the other hand, every single time I’ve seen a claim that they have said something outrageous, or that they are “misogynistic” – EVERY single time, it has turned out that that claim has depended on misrepresentation or outright lies about what they actually do/said/are.

    Does the men’s rights movement sometimes draw people in who are in need of reminding that something which happened to them via their wife, for instance, does not mean all women are evil? Does it sometimes draw people who are highly frustrated and need to moderate their views? Sure. From what I’ve seen, though, the VAST majority of people and causes involved are highly reasonable. MUCH moreso than modern feminism.

    Honestly it’s puzzling to hear so many people assert so confidently that the MRM or AVFM are these extremist woman-haters, and literally never see a shred of evidence for it, and mountains of evidence against it. I guess that’s the power of leftist lies.