South Africa Police Defend Shooting That Killed 34 Miners

CBC News, August 17, 2012

South Africa’s national police commissioner says 34 miners died and another 78 were wounded when police opened fire on striking miners outside a platinum mine, 90 kilometres northwest of Johannesburg.

Mangwashi Victoria Phiyega told a news conference Friday that her officers acted to protect their own lives after strikers armed with “dangerous weapons” charged them Thursday. She said the strikers had not dispersed earlier, despite police use of water cannon and stun grenades.

The South Africa Police Service defended the officers’ actions, saying in a statement they were “viciously attacked by the group, using a variety of weapons, including firearms. The police, in order to protect their own lives and in self-defence, were forced to engage the group with force.”

It was one of the worst police shootings in South Africa since the end of the apartheid era, and came as a rift deepens between the country’s governing African National Congress and an impoverished electorate confronting massive unemployment and growing poverty and inequality.

The shootings “awaken us to the reality of the time bomb that has stopped ticking—it has exploded,” The Sowetan newspaper said in an editorial. “Africans are pitted against each other . . . fighting for a bigger slice of the mineral wealth of the country. In the end the war claims the very poor African—again.”

{snip}

Political parties and labour unions, including the ANC, called for an independent inquiry. President Jacob Zuma is coming home from a regional summit in neighbouring Mozambique to address the crisis.

Makhosi Mbongane, a 32-year-old winch operator, said mine managers should have come to the workers rather than send police. He vowed that he was not going back to work and would not allow anyone else to do so either.

“They can beat us, kill us and kick and trample on us with their feet, do whatever they want to do, we aren’t going to go back to work,” he told The Associated Press. “If they employ other people they won’t be able to work either, we will stay here and kill them.”

{snip}

Shocked South Africans watched replay after replay of video of the shooting that erupted Thursday afternoon after police failed to get the striking miners to hand over machetes, clubs and home-made spears. Two police officers had been beaten to death earlier in the week.

Some miners did leave, though others carrying weapons began war chants and marched toward the township near the mine, said Molaole Montsho, a journalist with the South African Press Association who was at the scene. The police opened up with a water cannon first, then used stun grenades and tear gas to try and break up the crowd, Montsho said.

Suddenly, a group of miners rushed through the underbrush and tear gas at a line of police officers. Officers immediately opened fire, with miners falling to the ground. Dozens of shots were fired by police armed with automatic rifles and pistols.

{snip}

Poor South Africans protest daily across the country for basic services like running water, housing and better health and education—all of which were promised when racist white rule ended with the first democratic elections in 1994. Protests often turn violent, with people charging that ANC leaders have joined the white minority that continues to enrich itself while life becomes ever harder for the black majority.

Police often are accused of using undue force. Still, Thursday’s shooting appalled the country, recalling images of white police firing at anti-apartheid protesters in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, though in this case it was mostly black police firing at black mine workers.

It remains unclear what sparked the miners’ fatal charge at police. Mnisi, the police ministry spokesman, claimed the miners shot at police as well, using one of the weapons they stole from two policemen whom they beat to death on Monday.

“We had a situation where people who were armed to the teeth, attack and killed others—even police officers,” the spokesman said in a statement Thursday night. “What should police do in such situations when clearly what they are face with are armed and hardcore criminals who murder police?”

{snip}

The strike began last Friday. While it intially focused on wages, the ensuing violence has been fuelled by the struggles between the dominant National Union of Mineworkers and the upstart and more radical Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union. Disputes between the two unions escalated into violence earlier this year at another mine.

Clashes involving the two rival unions have claimed the lives of 10 people, including two police officers who were beaten to death by strikers. Two mine security guards died of burns suffered after strikers set their vehicle ablaze.

{snip}

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  • Global Minority

    “Protests often turn violent, with people charging that ANC leaders have joined the white minority that continues to enrich itself while life becomes ever harder for the black majority.” They still find some way to blame white people here. This is black rule, that is what they demanded.

    •  They are right about one thing, life is much worse for the average black under black rule.

    • Ulick

      The Telegraph (UK) article on this episode was basically tripping over itself as to how many times they could mention Apartheid and white South Africans killing black South Africans.  From the article…

      “The shooting recalled images of white police firing at anti-apartheid protesters in the 1960s and 1970s, but in this case it was mostly black police firing at black mine workers.”

      “South Africans have been appalled by the violence, which summons memories of the apartheid era and has been compared with the Sharpeville massacre of 1960.”

      But my absolute favorite line for comedy value…

      “It was a harrowing development in a country that had been seen as a model of stability since white rule ended with South Africa’s first free elections in 1994.”

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/9481814/South-African-police-say-they-were-forced-to-fire-on-striking-miners-killing-34.html

      • Sloppo

        Since the end of white rule, South Africa has been about as stable as a mixture of water and elemental sodium.

        • johnbull88

          Good point. The fewer whites in s africa the better.

  • loyalwhitebriton

    I fully appreciate that working conditions for the striking miners are pretty appalling, nevertheless if I were a Police Officer, or even just as a private citizen, if I were being charged at by an angry machete wielding mob, I would open fire. Who wouldn’t? The police acted correctly.

    • KenelmDigby

      The miners are demanding something like £1,000 per month wages.
       – In terms of average pay rates in South Africa, general price levels and the fact that an enormous number of South Africans are unemployed or barely employed, it is, by South African terms an exceptionally high wage claim.

  • JohnEngelman
  • potato78

    Blacks are proactive on violence due to high temper personality built in genetically.  

  • Jay11

    “Some miners did leave, though others carrying weapons began war chants and marched toward…”

    Sounds like good upstanding folk just trying to make a livin’.  Don’t union workers do this everywhere when they want reforms?

    I saw pics of the ‘strikers’ decked out like zulu warriors with knives and spears.

  • Notice how when blacks hold the whip hand, how
    they treat other blacks with such utter distain, yet when blacks are in White
    countries (sorry South Africa), we Whites are  apparently held to a higher standard when
    dealing with the machete and ‘spear’(?) holders.

    But then we’re called supremacists for it. Sigh.

    Also notice, how in the video that the unit commander
    appears to be White

    He follows the political correctness rules of engagement
    for a White man facing a black threat (gun pointed at the ground with no shots
    fired) and it’s him that issues the “cease fire” order (I didn’t catch the “fire
    at will” order in the video).

    Yet when it comes time for a fall guy in this
    situation, complete with many psy-ops photo spreads in the media, I wonder who’ll
    it’ll be?

  • Aj

    Interesting developments, you would think  kind of stuff would make the obstensibly Marxist leadership of South Africa look really bad–mass killing the working class.

    Out of curiosity I thought I’d check out the South African Communist Party’s line on the massacre and they blame the miners and call for a crackdown. 

    http://www.sacp.org.za/main.php?ID=3722 

    So much for championing the working class. Wonder how much longer SA lasts before it crumbles. I would not be shocked to see the whole country disintegrate sooner rather than later. Afrikaners should be ready to seceede….

  • Sell this mine to the Chinese.

    Let’s try for some good news from South Africa. I have an internet White friend in SA, in the Cape area, he says things are good, safe there.

    • johnbull88

      Wait till Mnadela dies. He would not be saying that anymore. I suggest he leaves our homeland now.

  • Anonymous

    Right, because it wasn’t like the Africans were killing each other with spears or machetes before the evil white man came down there…

    •  Machetes?  That they made by burning elephant dung with iron ore and pouring the molten iron into hollowed out elephant tusks?

  • KenelmDigby

    If South Africa’s White run pre 1994 White run government had done anything remotely similiar to this, then you could bet your boots that it would be blared out as headline news , non-stop,  on the hour every hour, whilst emotional White American politicians would scratch each others’ eyes out for the chance of making windy, histrionic speeches condemning White South Africans and Vowing to send in the US military to destroy White South Africans

  • KenelmDigby

    I saw some very interesting TV news footage of the ‘striking miners’ very ostentatiously licking spear-heads (yes, literally).
     I don’t what this symbolises – is it some traditional African pre-war ritual?

  • As with the Rodney King video, CNN jumps to the point of showing the shooting as if it happened without any build up or reason:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/17/world/africa/south-africa-mine-violence/index.html

    Comment section is now closed.

    • I read through the comments and the liberals blame the corporation, typical liberals. instead of putting the blame on people who decided to take up weapons, kill people and charge at police they blame the corporations and whitey.

      • johnbull88

        I also blame a garbage religion called Christianity as well

  • jeffaral

    South Africa has everything it needs to be a shining light to the World:  It’s Christian, huge mineral resources, hard working black people….   She just needs a litle helping hand to kick off..   Ha ha.

  • Laager

    “It remains unclear what sparked the miners’ fatal charge at police. Mnisi, the police ministry spokesman, claimed the miners shot at police as well, using one of the weapons they stole from two policemen whom they beat to death on Monday.”
    ===========================================================SOURCE: http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.co.uk/Conflict started when Lonmin brought large numbers of Xhosa-workers from East Cape from Jan 2012:The conflict has been going on for months: ever since Lonmin started bringing large numbers of  Xhosa miners from the East Cape, leaving local Rustenburg residents jobless – and very angry.Indeed so angry that local community members dragged a white woman from her car and to the Ns 2 mineshaft – where she was gangraped in revenge: (http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Rape-must-not-again-be-a-form-of-protest-2012021.The other facts of the matter are:(1) Lonmin is a British company with it’s headquarters in the UK. It used to be known as Lonroh with flamboyant Tiny Rowlands the CE(2) The SA Police have been called in to manage a totally internal domestic wage dispute which the company is unable to deal with.(3) The entire state chain of command: President – Minister of Police – Commissioner of Police – Divisional Commander of Police – District Commander of Police – Station Commander of Police – senior field Officer in Command is black in The New South Africa(4) The white police officers seen in the pictures are merely on duty officers obeying the orders of their Commanding Officer. The ratio of employment of black to white officers in the force and on duty on the scene is probably 8:1 – reflecting the demographics of the nation(5) How desperate Reuters are to focus on the white officers to create the psy-ops impression that the simple black and white division they have always portrayed still exists – with whites retaining the upper hand through physical brutality.If any liberals read this please respond with your in-depth analysis of the situation and your proposed solutions to solve it. You have been doing so for the last 50 years to the point where SA whites eventually heeded your advice – against their better judgment – and handed the country over to the black majority. This event is a direct outcome of your boycotts, disinvestment and isolationist campaigns against the white minority.Over to you liberals. This is your big break. You have always claimed the moral high ground and know all the answers. How are you going to solve this crisis and apologise to the families of the dead?  

  • Epiminondas

    Just wait until the Chinese are running the show.  Instead of 34 dead, you’ll get 340 dead…in one day.

    • johnbull88

      At least they are not WASP

  • Epiminondas

    White liberals should be proud of themselves for engineering such a utopia.

  • Ulick

    Superb posting, thanks. Unfortunately, (and I’m sure that you’re aware of this), Huffington Post readers don’t want the truth. They want an affirmation of their illogical worldview, even if that affirmation is false.

  • Ulick

    Yep, 172 years since the Battle of Blood River and the Zulus still haven’t learned that you shouldn’t run straight into people with guns if you only have a short spear. And the Battle of Blood River was also a fantastic lesson to white people. It showed you respond when over 500 of your famiily members, including wives and children, are murdered by immoral savages during a night raid; and it showed that all whites (men, women, and children) are in this together and need to work together…

    The Battle of Blood River was fought between 470 Voortrekkers and an estimated 10,000–15,000 Zulu attackers.

    The Zulu were afraid to attack in the night due to superstitions about the lamps which the Boers hung on sjamboks around the laager. During the night of 15 December, 6 Zulu regiments or 6,000 Zulu soldiers started massing around the [Trekker] encampment.

     On 16 December, dawn broke on a clear day, revealing that “‘all of Zululand sat there'”, said one Trekker eyewitness. In ceremonies that lasted about three days, izinyanga zempi, specialist war doctors, prepared izinteleze medicines which made warriors invincible in the face of their opponents. This could explain why Dambuza’s forces were sitting on the ground close to the wagon laager when the Trekkers opened fire during the day.

    Dambuza’s regiments repeatedly stormed the laager unsuccessfully. The attackers were hindered by a change introduced during Shaka’s rule that replaced most of the longer throwing spears with short stabbing spears. In close combat the stabbing spear provided obvious advantages over its longer cousin. A Zulu eyewitness said that their first charge was mown down like grass by the single-shot Boer muskets.

    The Trekkers brought to bear their full firepower by having their women, children and servants reload other muskets, allowing a single shooter and a band of servants to fire a shot approximately every 5 seconds. Buckshot was used to maximise casualties.
     

    After two hours and four waves of attack, with the intermittent lulls providing crucial reloading and resting opportunities for the Trekkers, Pretorius ordered a group of horsemen to leave the encampment and engage the Zulu in order to disintegrate their formations. The Zulu withstood the charge for some time, but rapid losses led them to scatter. The Trekkers pursued their fleeing enemies and hunted them down for three hours. Cilliers noted later that “we left the Kafirs lying on the ground as thick almost as pumpkins upon the field that has borne a plentiful crop.”

    Bantjes recorded that about 3,000 dead Zulu had been counted. Three Trekkers were wounded, none were dead.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blood_River
     
     

  •  A lot of people still hear “union” and think middle aged white man working manufacturing or heavy industry. In reality, a big chunk of organized labor today is black and Hispanic in race and service and government in industry. Also, many “union” leaders are sociologically indistinguishable from business leaders. For example, Andy Stern, head of the SEIU, graduated from Wharton Business School and (I heard) belongs to a country club. The kind of person who graduates from Wharton and belongs to a CC reads like the kind of person a union leader has to negotiate with and against, not a union leader himself. Even Richard Trumka, who is sociologically white working class, is so absorbed into the non-white non-manufacturing/heavy industry union system that he’s a traitor to his own class.

    • Xerxes

      Stern and Trumka are too close to the Democratic party and are probably more loyal to it than to their own unions. There are still a lot of White union workers. Untill recently a slight majority of White union members voted Republican. I don’t know about the 2008 and 2010 elections. Unfortunately the Republican party has become so anti-union that union workers are often left with little choice but to support the Democrats even though the Democratic party does almost nothing for them.

  • Sheila Dinehart

    Africa’s  population control policies again…what a clever idea.

  • Degueldre

    The South African Police Service is around 95% black. Most of the white cops have been forced out. There are a lot of dedicated and effective black cops, but political correctness also means you see a lot of overweight female cops who are only there to meet gender and employment quotas. With more than half your force essentially unproductive, salaries are low and corruption is rife. I feel sorry for the dedicated cops, black and white, who try to make a difference. Senior positions are generally not open to whites, but there are still a few white volunteer ‘reservists’ who do the job out of civil duty. They are often killed, as they tend to put themselves on the front line.

  • BJDeller

     KenelmDigby.  There were several such events where thw white Africans, (many had lived in SA for over 100 years with their families), one terrible event that gained worldwide publicity where nearly 20 000 blacks who had been organised and stirred up by Nelson Mandelas’ terrorist political Party as well as a rival cvalled the Pan African Party who actually started the mob action, attacked a small police station at a place called Sharpeville (google it) manned by comparitively few (less than 20) young white policemen.  When the blacks charged, armed with weapons that has been provided by the terrorists, piles of new pick-axe handles, machetes and a few guns etc, the scared young policemen understandably opened fire in fear of their lives and fought of the baying mob, especially when the police staion commander was attacked and grabbed.   This is just what the ANC/PAC wanted. as planned and they capitalised on the event in their propaganda world-wide and the sheeple fell for it.     I was living in SA when it happened.  We knew that without the support of the outside world the white Africans were doomed to a life as in the “newly freed” African countries to the north where the new leaders murdered and stole from their people.   We now live in Spain along many other ex-South Africans who have British or European passports and are allowed to freely move here and many others  have legally emigrated to the USA, Australia and other sane countries,  those ex South Africans who have very good qualifications and skills, just the skills needed in the “new South Africa” but cannot use as the jobs must go to black South Africans first even if they are unable to do the work.  They often have white ns Indian assistants to do their work. 

    The big mistake made by the Afrikaaners and other European settlers in the 19th Century was that they did not copy the USA where the warring Red Indians were marginalised and placed in reservations if they did not want to assimilate into the general US population.     If this had been done in sub-Saharan  Africa the area then could have become another USA perhaps.   I have been to Blood River where the 120 Voortrekkers (journeying people using wagons), the same as in the USA where the wagons went West, and it was a great battle won by the Voortrekkers against terrible odds and this was after the trekkers made friends with the local tribes, helped them and then were betrayed and murdered by the blacks.  Nothing new there then?  Therev wer so many black attackers killed that the river where the battle took place in an ox-bow or sharp bend ran red with their blood.

    That is why Apartheid was thought up to allow the black tribes to grow with their own leaders who could not murder the whites as is happening now on the white-owned farms established and developed over a century farms.  Now after nearly 20 years of “freedom” since Apartheid ended and affirmative action, the average black South  African is getting poorer and poorer as the ANC enriches its members at the top, and the current leader of the ANC Youth League , Julius Malema is trying to stir up the poorer black Africans to steal again from the white-owned and developed businesses as the blacks generally do not seem to be able to build up businesses themselves (that seems familiar?), although even under Apartheid there were some black millionaires.  Reember that in this context, coal black Africans are only the pure blacks as far as the new leaders are concerned.  no Indians or mixed races called coloureds all who are treated as inferior by the true blacks, many of whose antecedants came from Central Africa anyway to enjoy the economic benefits that the Eurpoeans brought.

    The murders (on both sides) at the Lonmin mine, have to be considered in the same light as Sharpville.

    Please remember the above facts if involved in chats about that country in the light of the mine killings.

    We are all waiting for the George Zimmerman trial with bated breath hoping that real justice will prevail.

    • GravitonX

       I am saddened that you chose my country in which to flee.  Why not GB?

      • Bjdeller

        Thanks for your concern.  We wanted to live in a country where the PC idiots have not taken over and my wife used to visit Spain with her parents when she was very young until teenage years.  So we came to look twice in 1999 and decided on the Costa del Sol as there is more greenery here with more rainfall.  But nowhere is perfect but my wife can walk around on her own (she is 20 years younger than I and very fit and attractive) without being attacked except for attempts to chat her up (ask for dates) by some Spanish men.  The UK is over-crowded and there are far too many violent attacks in the streets there with a fifth column of Muslims being allowed to set up areas ready to attempt to form a caliphate as they keep threatening.   I am not a racist but I am quite openly a realist about such matters and in South Africa before we left, I used to be invited to parties where I was the only white person present as I helped with advice the black people.  I would freely give my opinions warning them about how they most likely will be cheated by the new ruling elite, the ANC.  

        My most favourite question was how many white people were necklaced by the ANC and they were amazed and very thoughtful when I told them no one was as it was used to coerce black people into joining the ANC or the other terrorist Party, the Pan African  Congress.  Only black people were necklaced (murdered by the ANC/PAC)I was always treated well by those I spoke to, advising them as they were realising that living conditions for them are not as good as they were under Apartheid for many black people.   Many are now realising that they have been cheated. But Spain is great except for the national pastime by government officials, building developers and lawyers, etc for corruption and cheating all.  That must be sorted out in Brussels though where thousands of house buyers, Spanish as well as foreigners settling in Spain.

        So although we escaped we did not flee and can go back anytime.

        • GravitonX

          “But Spain is great…”

          Perhaps you can educate your fellow commenters who for some reason believe that “Spain lies in ruins.”  Too many on this board have a tendency to let emotions cloud their vision.

          Nonetheless, I acknowledge our shortcomings.  We just don’t need the extra “shortcomings” of others along with all the demons they bring.

          Enjoy your time and Spain and please leave the past behind.

      • Guest

         The troll returns, fresh from his last spanking.

        • johnbull88

          Sounds like a National Socialist Troll

      • johnbull88

        Well said.

      • godzillabloggs

        Many Spaniards are fleeing your country because of the dire economic situation.  Still, this is probably just an aberration, and Spain will soon join South Africa in the inevitable march of progress. 

  • never bring a machete and spear to a gun fight. Gnomeasyin?

  • It’s time to evacuate all of the whites left in SA and let it go to seed. Is there a fund to help white people emigrate from SA?

  • Being a White policeman in South Africa must be like being a eunuch at an orgy.

    They must just be there to yell “cease fire” when the boys start firing, to be character
    witnesses for their fellow officers when prisoners get sexually assaulted while
    in custody and to be the equivalent of Sears catalogue models for events like
    this one.

  • godzillabloggs

    A visit to the mine by St. Nelson Mandela should be enough to  disperse the murderous hostility  and promote a spirit of harmony.

    • johnbull88

      Count yourself lucky the St is still alive. Wait till he dies. Expect the whites to be roasted.

      • godzillabloggs

        I am very glad that I do not live in South Africa  (or Detroit, for that matter), even with Mandela alive.

      • godzillabloggs

        When blacks are in the majority, you want race war.  When whites are in the majority, you want affirmative action.  Nice work if you can get it.

        • johnbull88

          I never said I wanted affirmative action. I live in S.Africa and Barbados. When it comes to politics I am firm believer in National Socialism and not your global capitalism evil system.

          • godzillabloggs

            Stand by for the  Soweto Beer Hall Putsch.

          • johnbull88

            It has already started. Why do you think the Whites are running for their lives before Mandela dies. The UK and Australia is full of them.

  • “Chinese Management”..hmm, wasn’t there a story just last week about miners killing a Chines manager in another African country? The Chinese will learn the hard way, or they will take territory.

  • no one reads your post beyond the first three words

  • GravitonX

     Being from Spain, I doubt anyone else from my county would be agreeing with those on this board.  The opinions expressed here are AngloAmerican “cultural” dysfunctions.

    • Overlord

      Your country lies in ruins due to the “dysfunctions” of people such as yourself. No thank you, we don’t want any of that.

      • GravitonX

         My country lies in ruins?  Really?  You obviously don’t know the first thing about Spain, so don’t try.

  • johnbull88

    The best policy for S.Africa is national socialism. Which means kick out all the whites. Send them to Australia.

    • godzillabloggs

      And what would be the best policy for countries where whites are in the majority?

      • johnbull88

        Do what you want. I am only interested in preserving the black countries and keeping out multi-culturalism

  • johnbull88

    Its global capitalism that killed them. Thats why Africa needs national socialism.

  • johnbull88

    The Christian Hitler was even worse together with his wasp supporters.

  • BJDeller

    Hi folks me again, not a troll.    People who have not lived in sub-Saharan Africa have no idea about the black Africans there.  Many who were going to a fight or especially to rob banks and restaurants where to enter most big restaurants in the SA  cities, you go through a safe lock up area like banks here in Spain which deters robbers as they cannot just run out.     The robbers would visit a Sangoma (witchdoctor) to be given some mumbo-jumbo that would ensure that the other persons e.g. the police, shooting at them could only fire bullets that would turn to water as they left the gun.    That is how so many were shot.   Let us face it, all the Socialists/ Liberals have messed up again as they always do .  They mean well but never learn and refuse to admit their major mistakes.   A very high proportion of the blacks did not want rule by their own kind as they had seen what happens in African countries to the North.  That is why necklacing was used.  Robert Mugabe and the other terrorists in Rhodesia cut off lips, noses and ears in front of a crowd of blacks to coerce them.    Look at Zimbabwe now  which is a prime example of African leadership in the modern World.  It is not racist to point this out for how can you effectively solve a problem without recognising what it is?  The mistake made elsewhere especially in the USA is to just throw tax payers money at the problem and it does not work..  Some black South Africans readily accepted the Homeland concept which was the cornerstone of Apartheid because they could see continuing prosperity and safety with the whites still in charge overall. but the African National Congress (ANC, Mandela’s mob) wanted it all NOW.  But now they have it they are in African style messing it all up.  The western Liberals and socialisst ahve let thsoe who knew what was need down very badly and should hang their heads in shame for their misguided actions in the past.

    The rest ishistory which now for SA will be written by the ANC.  Graviton, my wife and I love Spain and we have Spansih friends we meet with regularly.  My wife’s command of the Spanish language is very good (we went to classses and watch Spanish TV, read books etc,, but me being an old man, 75 next birthday, I battle along but Spanish strangers accept and help me, pleased that I am trying unlike many of the Brit expats here.  Muy mal!  I lke the politeness of the majority of Spanish folk we meet but as yopu quite rightly admit, the corruption is very bad and now all are suffering in Spain.

    We have even been made honorary members of a Spanish family for helping/befriending their widowed grandmother over a couple of years who lives near us.  The family mainly lives in Cordoba, a long way away from the coast as you must know but Paco (now has died) and Pepita lived here near Marbella most of their lives.

    As for those who praise Socialists remember that the biggest socialist of the 20th Century was Hitler who called his Party in German, “National Socialists”  (NAZI).  Socialists mean well but always leave a country in a mess.  Look at the UK now battling to get out of the financial mess that occurred under New Labour.

    I wish SA well and would move back tomorrow if the whites were again in power but as this is not going to happen why should my6 wife and I live in a gated commuinty with armed guards and with us legally (then) carryin 9 mm pistols everywhere?
    Those  whites who live there who say all is well are those who have not yet come to terms with the fact that it is not “if” you are going to be robbed/raped/murdered, but “when”.  You have to leave your fortified homes and townships soemtimes.

    • GravitonX

       I could figure that you lived in either Marabella or Malaga.

      As for your conclusions about SA, you are certainly entitled to them.  I think differently.  Call me a Socialist.  Rome was not built in a day and neither will SA.  La Reconquista took 700 years and for much of it and even afterwards we were less advanced than the Moors. 

      I understand the purpose of self-serving anecdotal “examples” and testimonials, the “see I told you so”‘s, but in the long analysis of history the transformation of SA and the collapse of the Boer regime took place at lightning speed.  My guess is that given modern technology and social advances they’ll likely be on par with Western nations in 50-100 years, or roughly the same amount of time it will take Eastern Europe.

      • godzillabloggs

        You must be one the few remaining believers in the old Victorian idea of the inevitability of progress.

        I am surprised that you regard yourself as a socialist.  There appears to be nothing anti-capitalist about your views.

  • GravitonX

     You and I will just have to agree to disagree.

  • godzillabloggs

    Impossible if they want different things.

  • godzillabloggs

    “It has already started. Why do you think the Whites are running for their lives before Mandela dies”.  (JohnBull88).

    For much the same reason that many people have all races have been trying to get out for years.  The place is turning into a hell-hole.

  • godzillabloggs

    “About 25% of the black citizens from these countries have fled to previously white oppressive South Africa”.

    Where many of them have been met with mob violence by local blacks.  The media are not saying much about it, but it  was  reported a few years ago that 60 had been killed.