‘Knockout Game’ Case Shocked St. Louis, Then Fell Apart

STL Today, March 4, 2012

The police captain couldn’t believe it. He had the Knockout King in his office.

It was September 2011, and police were struggling to get a handle on a series of vicious knockout assaults in south St. Louis. Groups of teens were cold-cocking older pedestrians at random. One was dead, several injured. Residents were alarmed, police baffled. It didn’t make sense, such a cruel and cowardly crime.

Now, sitting in Capt. Jerry Leyshock’s office was an important key to the mystery: the Knockout King. That was the teen’s nickname, said the four other young men also swept up that night by police after yet another assault. They sat inside South Patrol headquarters. And the ringleader, they said, happened to be right over there.

Leyshock took stock of the young man in his office. The kid looked 17 or 18. He was stocky, his hair cut in short dreadlocks. He wore a hooded sweatshirt. The captain, who coached youth boxing, thought he recognized the teen as a boxer from the Cherokee Recreation Center. The teen, for now, revealed little. Then he mentioned he was 16, a juvenile. Too young to talk with police alone. The interview was over.

In a moment, the teens would be released. But first, Leyshock, in his white dress shirt and black tie, gold badge on his chest, leaned in close.

“I think it’s a safe bet we’re going to pay you a visit whenever a knockout case comes up,” the captain said.

The meeting with the Knockout King would turn out to be a crucial break in a crime that hadn’t occurred yet—a case of cavalier brutality that would shock a city, especially after the accused attackers were set free.

On Oct. 21, Matt Quain, 52, a dishwasher, was severely beaten in a knockout assault on South Grand Boulevard. The mayor helped rescue him. Seven middle schoolers, some as young as 12, were arrested. Then, at a juvenile court hearing in January, the main witness, a 13-year-old classmate of the defendants, failed to show up. The case was tossed out.

The kids celebrated. Others howled.

“People all over the city of St. Louis are outraged over this,” Mayor Francis Slay said.

Matt Quain


The story of how police cracked the case, only to see it fall apart, shows the unusual challenges posed by knockout assaults, as well as the communitywide frustrations. The crimes were rare, but terrorizing. These were not muggings. Something else was at play here. It was a matter of finding out what, even if the answers were unsettling.

• • •


Quain suffered a broken jaw. The incident seemed like an echo of the fatal assault in April. And the mayor’s role made the incident loom only larger. This was suddenly a high-profile case.

And police were struggling with it. At least nine officers had descended on the scene that Friday night, hoping to turn up a lead. Nothing. The teens were gone. The witnesses couldn’t identify anyone. Police had little to go on. The case threatened to slip away.

Leyshock decided it was time to visit the Knockout King.

“I wanted to see how he played me, feel him out,” the captain said.

He stopped by the Cherokee rec center in Benton Park. The captain knew the boxing coach there, Jesse Davison.


{snip} When the captain showed up, Davison suspected which boxer he wanted to see. The teen had long been a challenge. A couple years ago, the teen’s mother had brought the kid to the gym asking for help with her out-of-control son. “He’s a good kid,” the boxing coach says, “but he’s just going down the wrong path.”

{snip} The Knockout King was throwing punches at a heavy bag. Leyshock sat down on a red weight bench. He called the teen over.

You know why I’m here, the captain said.

It wasn’t me or my crew, the teen replied.

Leyshock couldn’t press him. It was too early in the investigation, but he’d made a point. Police would be back.

It took just one more day. At South Patrol’s 10 a.m. roll call, a sergeant read aloud an update of recent crimes and concerns. The Quain incident was mentioned. Officer Brian Eisele perked up.

Eisele was 29. He was built like a college wrestler, short but muscular. He’d been on the force three years. As a patrolman, he knew about the knockout assaults. He was familiar with the area where Quain was assaulted. A middle school was nearby. So was Gravois Park. And Eisele knew that one teen’s name kept coming up: the Knockout King.

Eisele wasn’t a detective, but he decided to chase this case between radio calls. When roll call ended, he grabbed his partner, rookie patrolman Kevin Bambrick.

They started at Gravois Park, not far from where Quain was attacked. The patrolmen walked to a large gazebo in the center. Gang activity was a problem here. Police regularly chased off people who lingered past the small city park’s 10 p.m. curfew. At least twice Eisele had taken the Knockout King home after curfew violations. Eisele spotted graffiti on the gazebo. One phrase stood out: “TKO zone Stay Out.”

TKO. It means “technical knock out” in the ring. On the streets, it was The Knock Out. The Knockout King.

Eisele and Bambrick decided to visit the teen at home a few blocks away. {snip}

Eisele was direct. This is not a social visit, he said. You know why we’re here.

The teen was silent.

If you know something, you better tell him, the teen’s mom said.

You need to start talking, said another relative.

Finally the teen did.

• • •

Eisele took notes as the teen described what he knew about Quain’s attack. He said he was in the Gravois Park gazebo that Friday night when a young girl he knew walked over. Police sirens echoed in the distance. He asked if she knew what was going on. She said she’d watched her friends jump a man on Grand. She figured that’s where police were headed.

Eisele got the girl’s nickname and her school: Fanning Middle.

The Knockout King also detailed the rules behind the knockout assaults.

He said he got the idea after being bored hitting the bags and sparring at Cherokee. When the gym closed, he and other teens hit the streets. They created a game. The objective was to knock out a stranger with a single punch, get them off their feet. Stealing a wallet or cellphone was not the point. “Do the lick,” in Eisele’s words, and get on with it.

They called it TKO. There were four main members: the Knockout King was the TKO CEO. He had a co-CEO, a president and an MVP. They hung out in Gravois Park. They flaunted their TKO status on Facebook. They sought out other kids to join their nascent gang. They taught recruits to pick vulnerable, older adults. One rule was that a TKO member had to witness the assault, “kinda like a performance evaluation,” Eisele recalls.


• • •


Eisele found his witness. She looked like a typical 13-year-old. Later that day, with a district detective sitting in, the girl’s mother told her daughter to tell police everything.

The girl said that she had been hanging out on Grand with friends from school that Friday. She stood with another girl. Across the street lingered six boys. She said the boys “had hopes of gaining membership with an older group of juveniles who referred to themselves as ‘TKO’,” according to the police report.

The target was picked at random, an older man just walking past. Two boys, ages 12 and 13, ran up from behind and ‘simultaneously punched him on either side of his face,” noted the police report. Three other boys—one was 12, the other two were 14—then began punching and kicking the man, too. The girl’s classmate ran across the street and joined in, along with a 14-year-old boy. The victim collapsed. The teens walked away. The girl ended up in Gravois Park, where she ran into the Knockout King.

At the end of the interview, the girl’s mom asked about security for her daughter. Eisele and a district detective tried to reassure her. They vowed to not share the girl’s name. They hoped somehow that would be enough.

The next day, police returned to Fanning with 12 officers and detectives. “A show of force,” Eisele said.

Police arrested four students. A suspended student was picked up later. Two former Fanning students also were taken in.


• • •

As the weeks ticked off, as fall became winter and the holidays passed, the memory of the knockout assaults faded from public view.

But Rodney Smith, a juvenile court investigator, didn’t forget. Among his duties that winter was keeping tabs on the sole cooperating witness in the Quain case.

Without that 13-year-old girl, the case would fall apart.

Smith frequently called the girl and her mother. He visited them. The weekend before the court hearing, he took them out to eat at Subway. The girl seemed ready to take the stand.

The trial was set for 9 a.m. on Jan. 9, in the courtroom of Judge Edwards. There are no juries in juvenile court. The judge makes the call.


Early that morning, Smith headed out for one final errand for the case. He drove to north St. Louis to pick up the 13-year-old witness and her mother. They were not home. But family members assured him the pair would get to court on time.

Smith alerted staff attorney Margaret Gangle, who was prosecuting the case. Her key witness was missing. Gangle could have asked for a continuance. But she pressed on.

The courtroom was crowded with the families of the seven defendants. Detective Josh Wenstrom, who had interviewed the young witness, sat nearby in a small room reviewing his notes, preparing to testify. About the same time, far from the scene, the Knockout King posted on Facebook: “FREE ALL MY TKO GUYS.”

At 9 a.m. the hearing began.

Minutes later it was over. The 13-year-old witness never showed.

Wenstrom heard a roar in the hallway. It sounded like cheering. “I was almost sick to my stomach,” he says.


Edwards dismissed the case. He had no choice. Because the hearing had started, legal jeopardy had attached. The charges could never be brought again.

The defendants flocked to Facebook to announce their freedom. “Yeaaa immm home somebody call mee,” one wrote.

“We out here . . . who mad,” wrote another.

The answer, it turned out, was just about everyone.

• • •

Outrage flowed. Even a court spokesman, limited by the confidentiality of juvenile cases, allowed that this had been “a very frustrating case.”


Slay said he believed the 13-year-old witness was intimidated into skipping court. Talk radio and online comments amplified the charge. Leyshock’s computer burned up with scathing emails critical of police and the justice system.

Bolstering the notion was a Facebook posting by a defendant’s mother on Nov. 17. She wrote that the 13-year-old girl already was missing—“thats a good thing.”

Five days after the hearing, the 13-year-old witness took to Facebook to respond to teasing that she had ratted out her friends “because they were playing knock out.”

The girl insisted, using online slang, that she was not helping police: “I worked byy myy mff self . . . ”

Authorities tried to find out what really happened. For several weeks, detective Wenstrom and investigator Smith worked to reach the girl’s mother. She was never around or didn’t return their calls.

In late January, the witness’s mother told the Post-Dispatch in a brief interview that her daughter was never missing, but people had been “threatening her.”

“We have to live where we stay,” she said. “I’m not going to jeopardize my child.”

Despite her misgivings, the mother said it was “lies” that they intended to skip court.


• • •

A few weeks after the case collapsed, Leyshock was back in his office, again thinking about the knockout assaults. He moved about the small room as he talked. He had 32 years on the force, had seen a bit of everything, but this was a crime he couldn’t comprehend.

“It’s outrageous,” he said. “And no one can put a finger on it because it’s not normal human behavior. It defies norms.”


Four months have passed without a knockout assault. But spring is coming. Leyshock worries. It has changed how he sees the streets.


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  • Summum jus, summa injuria.

  • libertarian4339

    “Wenstrom heard a roar in the hallway. It sounded like cheering. “I was almost sick to my stomach,” he says.”
    Yes, like every other case where black on white perpetrators are set free.  Of course, the cheering had nothing to do with race.
    And I imagine each of the victims was white, but the authorities will say it wasn’t based on race even though these retards probably passed up 4 blacks before assaulting a white.
    But, what good would it have done if the witness had showed up?  I mean, all they would get is a slap on the wrist since they’re all juveniles.  The police weren’t able to get the perps convicted, but it wouldn’t have made a difference if they did.
    The only thing these black retards respect is brute force,  applied severely and often…..with extreme prejudice.


    The police cannot help you.
    The courts cannot help you.
    Each White victim of racial violence must be able to help themselves.
    Are you able and ready to defend yourself and your family?

  • anarchyst

    Paul Kersey, we need you.  Vigilante action is what is needed.  Animals like this “knock out king” need to be beaten to within an inch of their miserable lives.  “Lead poisoning” induced paralysis would be an appropriate outcome.  Let him punch people from a wheelchair . . .

  • White Death

    “He’s a good kid,”

    Except for all the K.Os.

  • I’m glad AR found this story.

    This is such a cornucopia of irony and hypocrisy that we could easily push this over 3oo comments.

    I’ll break the ice.

    As you read, the Knockout Martin Luther King gang (and that’s what it is, a gang) started as an outgrowth of the boxing program at the recreation center that is a short walk from my boyhood home.  I never believed it before, but I believe it now — Recreation programs don’t prevent black juvenile crime, they breed it.

    The Mayor of St. Louis, Francis Slop (sic), is mentioned prominently here, for he was the one who happened to be driving by and saw Mr. Quain laid out on the sidewalk that night.

    Now, let’s put the two together.

    In 2006, the annual Morgan Quitno (now CQ press) city crime rankings came out, and St. Louis was #1.  At first, the Mayor’s reaction was that their methodology was faulty.  Eventually, he laid off that line and cooked up a new PR tactic:  They were telling the truth, but this means we needed recreation centers, to build new ones and to renovate existing ones, to make our fair city less violent.  He rode that wave to an increase in the sales tax, and of course it did what it advertised.

    Everything except really make a dent in violent crime.

    So here you have it:  The same Mayor who believes as a religious article of faith that recreation centers reduce violent crime happened upon the victim of a gang which not only grew out of a recreation center, but the given program (boxing) gave them the skills necessary for their “game.”

    The article also hints that the 13-year old girl didn’t show up to testify because of racial solidarity.  That’s something I’ve figured all along.

  • “these were not muggings. Something else was at play here. It was a matter of finding out what, even if the answers were unsettling.”

    what was at play here were “hate crimes” committed against whites, but as usual things become “unsettling” when having to admit that blacks are capable of violent racist acts

  • Southern__Hoosier

     The demographics of St. Louis city as of the 2000 census:
    Total population: 348,189
    51.2% African American
    48.85% White
    2.02% Hispanic/Latino
    1.98% Asian

    St. Louis is well on its way to being another Detroit.

    • Eventually, yes.  But there was a wave of yuppie gentrification in the last decade of certain neighborhoods that had not yet fallen.  The 2010 racial demographics are slightly more white and slightly less black than in 2000.

      Speaking of diversity, the neighborhood where the KMLK Gang is operating is literally the most diverse (Shannon-Weaver Index diversity, not “diverse” as code for “not white”) in St. Louis City.  In that neighborhood, you have a convergence of older whites, encroaching ghetto blacks, late 1990s Bosnian refugees, 1970s Indochinese refugees (mainly Vietnam-Thailand), some Afghani refugees from just a few years ago, and increasingly coming along the back stretch, Hispanics.  The main secular source of refugee resettlement in St. Louis, the International Institute, has its home base in that neighborhood.

      They keep saying diversity is a strength.  Yet, even if I already didn’t know better, I could stand on any given street corner in that neighborhood, and something just doesn’t feel right.  I don’t go there often, but that area gives me the creeps just from a subconscious standpoint, apart from my actually consciously knowing why.

      • That was the same feeling I got driving down 22nd ave in Miami, the heart of the infamous 1980 riot.  It was almost palpable.  Sixth sense, maybe it harkens back to our prehistoric ancestors that had to have that sense to avoid predators or die off.

      • Southern__Hoosier

         More yuppie more targets for knockdown games.  These yuppie are probably liberals. The type of people that put PC, diversity and multiculturalism ahead of the safety of themselves and their family.

        • I forgot to mention above — A bit to the west of that area is the big residential neighborhood for St. Louis’s white homosexuals.  And, one other minority in that neighborhood starting to show its presence are East Africans, Somalians and Ethiopians.

          It is pretty much a powder keg waiting for a spark.  If World War III breaks out on the corner of Grand and Gravois, I won’t be surprised in the least.

    • If only the entire White pop. could simultaneously move out; even better, replace them with Hispanics which would result in blacks just victimizing each other. Best of all, they’d also become victims of the Hispanics  :O)

  • anarchyst

    Looks like I got flagged for suggesting “vigilante” justice.  “Vigilante justice” is “self protection by any means necessary”. . .
    Thanks moderator . . .

  • Thug ghetto blacks are a pestilence on our entire society, all negatives and no positives.

  • bubo

    Carry a gun, and use it if threatened.   There’s no law saying you have to take a beating.  Blacks and libs will whine about “unarmed” youths being shot but that’s tough.  The law really is on your side.  Of course you could just walk away and let the police try to figure out what happened.  

  • I do not understand why all law-abiding white adults in the 41 Shall Issue (or better) states don’t routinely carry concealed handguns.

    Within the past week, a federal judge shot down Maryland’s requirement that the applicant show “good and substantial reason” for being issued a concealed carry permit (CCW), thus forcing MD to go “Shall Issue” (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gun-law-appeal-20120306,0,6673248.story ).

    The cesspool known as Baltimore would really benefit from a LOT of law-abiding folks carrying in that city….

  • Suburbs of St. Louis, it is time to declare war on the nihilism infecting Black America. 

    Black America is not helped by it’s apologists.

  • razorrare

    Edwards dismissed the case. He had no choice. Because the hearing had started, legal jeopardy had attached. The charges could never be brought again.
    And why not? Whites who have been acquitted by juries have been tried years,decades later on the same charges who have been accused of murdering a black….Recently two Whites who were acquitted in a court by a jury,Piekarsky and Donchak were charged again for the same offenses(double jeopardy)..by Federal Authorities  using the Federal Fair Housing Act to convict them of a “hate crime” of which they had previously been acquitted by a jury. So why cant the Fair Housing Act be used to recharge these “boys” and bring it to trial.


    • Good point.

    • Lou

       Excellent point but you forget one thing.. They are still in the same boat with the witness..

    • That’s “Edwards” as in Circuit Court Judge Jimmie Edwards (black).  There’s another irony — He’s a big media hound who never misses a chance to make a celebrity of himself.  His latest PR stunt was to start a charter middle-high school for low-level juvenile convicts, and the way the local media talked about it, it was nicer and had more amenities than a typical rural white high school.  If these KMLKers would have been convicted, they would have gone to that school, which surely was nicer and had more “toys” than their middle school.  Some punishment, huh?


    The solution is simple,kill one ,frighten ten thousand.

  • IanJMacDonald

     Margaret Gangle could have asked for a continuance, but didn’t. Presumably the witness was under subpoena, so the prosecutor could have asked the court to issue a bench warrant.  The trial would have been reset while the police went out and picked up the witness. 

    Will they even investigate and prosecute anybody for witness intimidation?  Doesn’t sound like it.

    • Sonya610

      Having the whole case ride on the testimony of a scared 13 year old is pretty weak no matter what. Start targeting all of the sleazy family and friends of these thugs, surely some are into drugs or on parole.

      People around these thugs have heard all of the stories and could testify that the perps mother said they had intimidated the witness, or that the perps bragged about being part of the group that beat the victim especially if their testimony saves them from a harsh jail sentence. 

      Even if the kids themselves are never prosecuted make the ones around them pay for it, the mother’s boyfriends, the older siblings, friends, etc…

      • Lou

         So you’re saying to have the police and courts intimidate their family members
        with threat of harsh/harsher  punisments ?  Uumm , isn’t that what the TKO did to the 13 year old ?  Beside , a good defense lawyer would rip that apart in seconds and have a jury on the side of the defendants.. Sometimes you have to think before you write..

        • Sonya610

          I am not suggesting they frame the associates or falsify charges, I am simply suggesting they go out of their way to pull records and arrest any that are breaking the law.

          Police departments frequently use that tactic to coerce information or encourage rival gangs to keep a truce. They tell them outright they will actively focus all of their attention on the group that caused the problem and will make it very difficult for them to continue their criminal activity.

          Nothing illegal about it.

  • CidMartel

    If this “whiteboy” we’re ever the victim of their amusing little game I would then play a game of my own. I like to call  it “2 to the chest, 1 to the head”. 

  • razorrare

    Here is another case tried 4 decades after the crime..The Trial of Edgar Ray Killen..Jan 7th, 2005.


  • MartelC

    White liberals have been sending blacks to white conservative areas via section 8 housing vouchers. (Those are the good vouchers unlike evil school ones) 

    • That’s actually the quiet solution that St. Louis is using, “encouraging” blacks to move to already blackening part of St. Louis County by issuing no new Section 8 vouchers for City apartments, but issuing them for suburban rentals.  It’s the same way that Chicago is pushing blacks to South Suburban Cook, and D.C. pushing blacks to Prince Georges County, Maryland.

  • Now, realistically- what is to be done ?

  • Speaking realistically — How will the KMLK gang be stopped?

    I hinted around the ultimate answer in one of my previous posts in this thread.  Hispanics are slowly encroaching onto the KMLK Gang turf from the southeast.  They’re going to whack an elderly Hispanic, and MS-13/Mara 18/Latin Kings will return the favor by presenting the KMLKers’ parents with the headless bodies of their late sons.

    • Sonya610

      Thing is if they DID whack an elderly Hispanic and the retribution was very harsh that would just teach them to only target vulnerable Whites instead, it wouldn’t stop the attacks.

      It is just so sad to see what has become of us, even 60 years ago Whites in many areas of the county WOULD have stood up and taken care of these punks if the law couldn’t handle it, but now days our people are simply submissive sheep.

  • I have sympathy.  CCW isn’t for everyone.  Not getting a carry permit is not a crime, ganging up on someone and beating him up is a crime.

    • “CCW isn’t for everyone.” It is if you live next to dangerous feral animals. If you are not prepared to defend yourself,  you really shouldn’t be living there. Like the song says, “I never leave the house without my 9 or 45.”

      • What if you’re 90 years old and have arthritic hands?  You must think such people have no civil liberties or civil rights, because they’re really unable to handle a pistol.

        • If you are 90 years old with athritic hands; well you probably need someone to take care of you anyway, as in a relative’s home or a nursing home. I know a man who is paralyzed from the waist down and has been wheel chair bound since he recovered from an auto accident years ago. He carries a concealed handgun (legally). As he said to me once “My legs may be paralzyed but I refuse to be paralyzed with fear in my own neighborhood.”

  • razorrare

    Realistically,an eye for an eye and a  tooth for a tooth,would suffice.Our forefathers would have known what to do to stop this problem.

  • Rocky Mountain

    Back in the mid-sixties I ran into a guy a couple of years older than I was who had gone to a rival high school in my home town.  He told me how he and another guy – both high school footballers the latter actually achieving All-American status at a well-known school in the now-PAC 12 – used to wait outside cheap bars (in my town there were plenty) and accost drunks in a friendly way.  Then the All-American would offer to shake the drunk’s hand and while gripping very tight, sucker punch the person in the head.  I’m pretty sure they did this more than once.  Both guys are white.

  • anarchyst

    In the late 1960s and early 1970s there was a successful “criminal abatement program” in the City of Detroit called STRESS (Stop The Robberies, Enjoy Safe Streets).  Police officers would be on duty as “decoys”, dressing as vulnerable older men and women.  When the predators would strike, they would be quickly “dispatched”.  Detroit’s first black mayor, Coleman Young, ran his campaign on the abolition of the STRESS program as “too many black people were being killed”.  His campaign was successful, STRESS was disbanded, the results being that predators were given “free reign” in Detroit.

  • Laura White

    The more I learn about blacks, the more when I read stories like these I picture the blacks in question more as higher primates than as humans. As in, literally in my mind’s eye I picture the 29 year old mammy of the 13 yr old witness as a bloodshot-eyed, fur-covered primate with long forearms, with a tiny simian brain effectively 120 grams lighter than a European’s, that missing brain mass incidentally causing by its absence a total lack of abstract reasoning and basic morality. 

    Think about it: even a gorilla like the one that bit its owner’s friend’s face off, has an inkling of morality; a gorilla knows when it has done wrong, sort of. But not really. Same things with modern blacks. 

    I’m sorry I realize that that is an atavistic way of looking at blacks, and if you’re black and you’re reading this I’m sorry for saying it, but a majority of your more depraved relatives really do deserve to be described in this manner, and I think you must know this. 

    Two hundred years ago certainly the vast majority of our ancestors openly considered blacks to be a different species – it was different times, and whites had not yet been subjected to centuries of anti-racism propaganda. 

    Read Thomas Hannibal Powell, read Madison Grant, Artur de Gheaubineau, Hesketh Prichard, heck, read Mark Twain for that matter (hint: you might have to dig a little to get to the pertinent parts). 


    – Arturo 


  • While “Shooting unarmed teenagers is probably not a great option”, it is NOT an illegal option. While I am NOT giving legal advice, I will say that the general rule is that if you are in a reasonable fear of death or severe/great bodily injury, you CAN use deadly force (i.e., shoot someone) for self-defense. Such cases are very fact based and “disparity of force” enters into the equation. In other words, if you are a 22 y.o. college football lineman, 6’8″ and weigh 260 lbs and are attacked by 4 80 y.o. grandmothers who are 5’2″ and weigh 110 lbs each, you will be hard pressed in justifying the use of deadly force. But if the physical characteristics are reversed (4 22 y.o. guys beating up on a 80 y.o. grandma), then the legal factual hurdle is quite easy to overcome.

    Pepper spray (FOX brand is excellent) is always a good thing to carry. Even those little pepper spray “pens” are better than nothing (Cold Steel Inferno version).

    At night, a small tactical flashlight that puts out >50 lumens (the more the better), will stun a Bad Guy (BG), long enough for you to launch a counter attack and/or escape. Fenix makes some excellent ones and Streamlight will be releasing a ProTac 2AAA within 2 months that will be very easy to inside the waistband (IWB) Everyday Carry (EDC). That will be replacing my Streamlight Stylus Pro when it is released.

  • Southern__Hoosier

     I am not a European American, just an American who happens to be white.

  • razorrare

    comment removed?? “Realistically,an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,would suffice.”

    Would my post had been more acceptable if i posted,” Realistically,we should turn the other cheek?”

  • You have my condolences. 

    I disagree about carrying openly:  That only makes you a target.  Best to conceal, and keep the element of surprise on your side.

    My mother is a Roosevelt alum, but that was a long and whiter time ago when you went to Roosevelt to learn something.

    For your sake, I hope you don’t have to shop at that third world Schnucks in that area.  A few years ago, when I was at the SLU Hospital cashier’s office closing a payable, I overheard two black women say that they avoid that particular Schnucks, even though they both live closest to it, because it had “too many n*****s.”

  • Grandparents ESL?  Maybe I presume you’re at least partially Eastern European in ethnicity?

    Last time I was in that third world Schnucks, the employees were reflective of the “diversity” in that neighborhood.  I could have only wished I would have got “service with an attitude,” because all I got were dull blank stares of the “We Are the World” crowd who resented actually having to work to make money, and of course some of the “young men” using the aisles for sprinting practice.

    • R Neville

      ESL=East Saint Louis.  My grandparents were N European stock.  We have lived in other city neighborhoods, and this is the first one in which “diversity” has impacted our lives.  The lack of diversity in the other ones  made the areas very nice and quiet.

      • The reason I guessed that is that in its heyday of livability (hard to believe now that ESL was ever really livable), the whites of ESL were largely Eastern European.

  • Before this story gets too stale, I have read the prediction in here that St. Louis is well on its way to becoming Detroit.

    Maybe it will be, but there’s a chance it won’t.

    Basically, the two bookends of the future of urban areas are Detroit at the worst, and Pittsburgh at best, the latter was able to sorta reinvent itself after the fall of the steel industry, because it somehow stayed heavily white.  I think St. Louis’s future is somewhere in between, probably halfway in between.  If the quiet sub rosa scheme of our civic elite quietly to push Section 8 ghetto blacks to the inner suburbs works, then St. Louis could be SWPL-style white yuppieville for quite some time.