What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?
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High-school students here rarely get more than a half-hour of homework a night. They have no school uniforms, no honor societies, no valedictorians, no tardy bells and no classes for the gifted. There is little standardized testing, few parents agonize over college and kids don’t start school until age 7.
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Finland’s students are the brightest in the world, according to an international test. Teachers say extra playtime is one reason for the students’ success. WSJ’s Ellen Gamerman reports.
The Finns won attention with their performances in triennial tests sponsored by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a group funded by 30 countries that monitors social and economic trends. In the most recent test, which focused on science, Finland’s students placed first in science and near the top in math and reading, according to results released late last year. An unofficial tally of Finland’s combined scores puts it in first place overall, says Andreas Schleicher, who directs the OECD’s test, known as the Programme for International Student Assessment, or PISA. The U.S. placed in the middle of the pack in math and science; its reading scores were tossed because of a glitch. About 400,000 students around the world answered multiple-choice questions and essays on the test that measured critical thinking and the application of knowledge. A typical subject: Discuss the artistic value of graffiti.
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One explanation for the Finns’ success is their love of reading. Parents of newborns receive a government-paid gift pack that includes a picture book. Some libraries are attached to shopping malls, and a book bus travels to more remote neighborhoods like a Good Humor truck.
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Finnish high-school senior Elina Lamponen saw the differences firsthand. She spent a year at Colon High School in Colon, Mich., where strict rules didn’t translate into tougher lessons or dedicated students, Ms. Lamponen says. She would ask students whether they did their homework. They would reply: “’Nah. So what’d you do last night?’” she recalls. History tests were often multiple choice. The rare essay question, she says, allowed very little space in which to write. In-class projects were largely “glue this to the poster for an hour,” she says. Her Finnish high school forced Ms. Lamponen, a spiky-haired 19-year-old, to repeat the year when she returned.
{snip}
Despite the apparent simplicity of Finnish education, it would be tough to replicate in the U.S. With a largely homogeneous population, teachers have few students who don’t speak Finnish. In the U.S., about 8% of students are learning English, according to the Education Department. There are fewer disparities in education and income levels among Finns. Finland separates students for the last three years of high school based on grades; 53% go to high school and the rest enter vocational school. (All 15-year-old students took the PISA test.) Finland has a high-school dropout rate of about 4%—or 10% at vocational schools—compared with roughly 25% in the U.S., according to their respective education departments.
Another difference is financial. Each school year, the U.S. spends an average of $8,700 per student, while the Finns spend $7,500. Finland’s high-tax government provides roughly equal per-pupil funding, unlike the disparities between Beverly Hills public schools, for example, and schools in poorer districts. The gap between Finland’s best- and worst-performing schools was the smallest of any country in the PISA testing. The U.S. ranks about average.
Finnish students have little angstata—or teen angst—about getting into the best university, and no worries about paying for it. College is free. There is competition for college based on academic specialties—medical school, for instance. But even the best universities don’t have the elite status of a Harvard.
Taking away the competition of getting into the “right schools” allows Finnish children to enjoy a less-pressured childhood. While many U.S. parents worry about enrolling their toddlers in academically oriented preschools, the Finns don’t begin school until age 7, a year later than most U.S. first-graders.
Once school starts, the Finns are more self-reliant. While some U.S. parents fuss over accompanying their children to and from school, and arrange every play date and outing, young Finns do much more on their own. At the Ymmersta School in a nearby Helsinki suburb, some first-grade students trudge to school through a stand of evergreens in near darkness. At lunch, they pick out their own meals, which all schools give free, and carry the trays to lunch tables. There is no Internet filter in the school library. They can walk in their socks during class, but at home even the very young are expected to lace up their own skates or put on their own skis.
The Finns enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, but they, too, worry about falling behind in the shifting global economy. They rely on electronics and telecommunications companies, such as Finnish cellphone giant Nokia, along with forest-products and mining industries for jobs. Some educators say Finland needs to fast-track its brightest students the way the U.S. does, with gifted programs aimed at producing more go-getters. Parents also are getting pushier about special attention for their children, says Tapio Erma, principal of the suburban Olari School. “We are more and more aware of American-style parents,” he says.
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Email Ellen Gamerman at ellen.gamerman@wsj.com5.
(Posted on February 29, 2008)
Comments
Better start taking in a lot more Somali refugees before this success becomes too embarrassing for the Finns. I have no doubt someone in the government is hard at work at this task this very moment.
Posted by at 6:34 PM on February 29
I seem to remember Steve Sailer explaining that Finland is so Finlandy solely because it’s full of Finns.
Sounds about right.
Posted by Raskolnikov at 6:40 PM on February 29
What a country! If the U.S. would have stayed white it would have become a semi-paradise like Finland. Sad.
Posted by Superwhite at 7:03 PM on February 29
Somalis are now entering Finland. I saw quite alot in Helsinki.
Posted by dom21 at 8:25 PM on February 29
Nokia Electronics?? How do the New World Order Global Economy druids explain the mere existance, let alone the success in the world marketplace of products from Nokia against electronics made in Pacific Rim locales where peasant workers are herded into industrial compounds with dormitories and paid less than $2.00 a day to assemble electronic gadgets?
Posted by underdog at 9:32 PM on February 29
If Finland is taking in blacks now, it won’t be long before the gap between the brightest and dimmest will be just as great as the US.
Too bad Finnish politicians are just as dumb as the others in the West who opt for multiculturalism, which is going to destroy their countries too.
Notice to the Finns: Oust the blacks now or forever live in turmoil.
Posted by at 10:30 PM on February 29
Finland’s population is about the same as Minnesota’s. That would be a more useful comparison. Take away the diverse districts in Minneapolis and St. Paul and this article could very well be describing Minnesota schools.
Posted by Civilized Neighbor at 10:33 PM on February 29
Maybe natural born IQ??????? Like the Japanese?
Ever thought of that WSJ???????
Posted by margaret at 10:38 PM on February 29
As was pointed out, the Finns are a very small and homogeneous country, and the US is large and not homogeneous. But that is not the whole story. Even excluding blacks, hispanics, and other disfunctional third world types, the United States has a large range of classes all of which are being stuffed into an evermore Procrustean school system. In decades past Jesus may have been the model for which one could strive, now the effeminate liberal arts former sixties radical college professor is the new secular saint. Young men who at one time may have left high school for a trade or business are not only finishing a watered down high school curriculum devoid of any significance, but are going to college to do the same thing. (And, of course, to drink and get easy sex.) Meanwhile plumbers may end up on the endangered species list, illegals build our homes, and a truckers lobby recently requested the Feds allow them to import long haul truckers from India because they couldn’t find any Americans to fill the jobs. However, there is no shortage of waitresses with master’s degrees in women’s studies. How many billions of tax dollars were wasted on that?
If you want to see a rise in math SAT scores, test the kids who actually have an aptitude beyond making change and are destined to use that kind of thinking in their vocation. As far as the others, who cares? Do you think an NFL scout cares how fast middle aged accountants run the forty yard dash?
A private school system will answer to parents, not political groups, and will enable each individual to achieve their own goals. It is ultimately up to each individual to find their calling, (or at least stay off welfare), and the best environment to do that is one of freedom.
Posted by Flamethrower at 10:54 PM on February 29
It’s too bad that this model wouldn’t work for the US. Our children aren’t as self-reliant and somehow I can’t see them trudging to school in near darkness without being attacked by thugs in baggy pants and cornrows.
Posted by at 11:14 PM on February 29
“How do the New World Order Global Economy druids explain the mere existence, let alone the success in the world marketplace of products from Nokia against electronics made in Pacific Rim locales where peasant workers are herded into industrial compounds with dormitories and paid less than $2.00 a day to assemble electronic gadgets?”
Nokia too uses cheap Asian labor. Countries that manufacture phones for Nokia include Brazil, China, England, Germany, Hungary, India, Mexico, Romania and South Korea. Nokia’s Design Department remains in Finland as does two major manufacturing plants.
Posted by A. Windaus at 12:00 AM on March 1
“Young men who at one time may have left high school for a trade or business are not only finishing a watered down high school curriculum devoid of any significance, but are going to college to do the same thing. (And, of course, to drink and get easy sex.) Meanwhile plumbers may end up on the endangered species list, illegals build our homes, and a truckers lobby recently requested the Feds allow them to import long haul truckers from India because they couldn’t find any Americans to fill the jobs. However, there is no shortage of waitresses with master’s degrees in women’s studies. How many billions of tax dollars were wasted on that?”
And that education is watered down for a reason. The religion of diversity.
Posted by at 1:31 AM on March 1
There is a better explanation of this.
Finland is not sponsoring children of substandard IQ parents. So, unlike in the U.S., the least smart are not the fastest multiplying segment of population. In other words, Finland doesn’t suffer from dysgenic fertility, while America does.
If you sponsor failure and a lack of academic success, you get a dumb generation that can hardly learn more advanced subjects.
Posted by A Reader at 2:55 AM on March 1
Feds allow them to import long haul truckers from India because they couldn’t find any Americans to fill the jobs.
Translation: they couldn’t find any Americans to fill the jobs at minimum wage with no benefits.
Posted by qwerty at 3:06 AM on March 1
Finland is one of the most agreeable countries in Europe, if not the world to live in. It is very prosperous, civilized and has a good standard of living.
What people tend to forget is that Finland was conolized by Russia for over a century and fought a very expensive war against Russia in 1940 that devastated its economy.For years, Finland’s main exports were timber and paper products - the hi-tech industry only came later.
Compare and contrast with Great Britain, which was many, many times richer in 1940 - and much more industrialised, put simply Britain failed to make any progress in the post-war years.
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 7:31 AM on March 1
“Take away the diverse districts in Minneapolis and St. Paul and this article could very well be describing Minnesota schools.”
Possibly of twenty to thirty years ago, but not today!
As a native MN, (who left and then came back) in the last fifteen years, I have seen the homogenous nature of this state DECIMATED by an influx of godless Somalis, ‘bucketa-bucketa’ Hispanics, and the occasional quiet, unobtrusive Russian/Siberian. Of the three, I’d take the Russian ANYDAY! They are the same race, often of the same religion, and have the same mores and culture.
The other two are IMPOSITIONS of a PAGAN/FOREIGN ETHNOS/ETHOS that has no place in this state.
IF Finland would allow ‘aliyah’ of an American of any scandic ancestry to emigrate there, (to replace their lowered birthrate) I’d emigrate immediately! Tervetuloa!
Posted by Fr. John at 9:31 AM on March 1
The education debate is mostly hot air that obfuscates the issue of genetics. Break past the taboos and this debate will streamline severely.
Posted by Simmons at 10:41 AM on March 1
As a native MN, (who left and then came back) in the last fifteen years, I have seen the homogenous nature of this state DECIMATED by an influx of godless Somalis, ‘bucketa-bucketa’ Hispanics,
*** and the occasional quiet, unobtrusive Russian/Siberian. Of the three, I’d take the Russian ANYDAY! They are the same race, often of the same religion, and have the same mores and culture.**
better you not visit Oregon… this vision will rapidly alter!!!!
Posted by at 1:38 PM on March 1
Let’s put on our thinking-caps, children. What could it be? What….could….it…..be?
I don’t know. If those brainiac super-geniuses at the Wall Street Journal can’t figure out the cause, then how is a poor, stupid, non-diverse, white-bread american schmuck like me supposed to figure it out?
It’s just a mystery. But at least we can always throw some more money at the problem.
Posted by CSinAL at 3:28 PM on March 1
Fr. John said: “IF Finland would allow ‘aliyah’ of an American of any scandic ancestry to emigrate there, (to replace their lowered birthrate) I’d emigrate immediately!”
Well, as far as I know, you’re welcome to move here as long as you can find a job before moving. And that very much depends on your professional skills etc. But there are jobs around and you don’t necessarily have to be able speak Finnish to get a job.
If you have some real interest in this, send me an e-mail and I can help you (and others possibly interested) to find some more info and contacts.
Posted by Jari Leino at 3:35 PM on March 1
I didn’t know Nokia Electronics is a Finnish company - I thought it was Japanese! I know Nokia sponsors the Sugar Bowl game. If you were to ask me to name some prominent Finns, I can only mention, Paavo Nurmi, Kimi Raikkonen, Mika Hakkinen and Keke Rosburg. One Olympic runner (Nurmi), and three Formula One drivers.
Funny, Finland is one of those countries I can easily find on the map, but I can’t name many prominent Finns, either historical or contemporary.
Posted by Soprano Fan at 3:39 PM on March 1
“*Compare and contrast with Great Britain, which was many, many times richer in 1940 - and much more industrialised, put simply Britain failed to make any progress in the post-war years.*”
This is a quite inaccurate comparison, as we all know that Britain took quite the hit to the economy from the “Blitz” - in fact, some point towards this economic devastation as one of the primary reason “The British Empire” was dismantled, as “Britannia” had neither the means nor desire to maintain colonies that didn’t profit Britain. Add to that the stream of white Britons fleeing post-War England for Australia, Canada etc…
Posted by Obscuratus at 4:45 PM on March 1
Soprano Fan:
Any St. Louisan with half a brain could add Eero Saarinen. Linux users know Linus Torvalds.
As an aside, AR covered Finland awhile back:
http://www.amren.com/ar/2006/12/index.html
Posted by St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister at 4:47 PM on March 1
Finland is a tremendously successful country because it is a Finnish country full of Finns. Which intends to stay that way. The Finns and Estonians, despite the stirrings of idiot politicians who want to bring in Somalis, have been more nationalistic and resistant to such stupid ideas. They’ve seen how such “diversity” has all but ruined the UK, Australia and North America.
So Finland is now inclining more toward the policies of East Asian countries like Japan and China, or some European nations such as Switzerland, Denmark and Germany— immigration chiefly for those with some ethnic connection to the country, such as North Americans and Australians with Germanic ancestry, who are given priority for coming to Germany especially if they have a skilled background. Small numbers of highly qualified, hard-working professionals are allowed in from other countries as well, but they are closely regulated.
Finnish is a very difficult language to learn, but an old college buddy of mine who emigrated there, said it’s well worth it. In fact, as the UK, Australia and North America go Third World, Finland— along with a handful of other European countries such as Germany, Denmark and Austria— is becoming an attractive destination for people to move, and to raise their children there. Obviously, they’ll be attending some excellent schools!
Posted by Cameron at 4:51 PM on March 1
*** and the occasional quiet, unobtrusive Russian/Siberian. Of the three, I’d take the Russian ANYDAY! They are the same race, often of the same religion, and have the same mores and culture.**
better you not visit Oregon… this vision will rapidly alter!!!!
Posted by at 1:38 PM on March 1
Better you not visit Las Vegas either…This vision will also vanish rapidly!
Posted by at 6:42 PM on March 1
To put it in simple language, they are genetically smarter. Their homogeneity along with its particular adaptive superiority has served them well making snowshoes as well as Nokia handsets. Some “got” it; some don’t. Unfortunately and rather ironically, superior intelligence is often not terribly useful when forming [and maintaining] immigration policy. Good luck, Finlanders!
Posted by ActionPotential at 8:54 PM on March 1
“Finland is one of the most agreeable countries in Europe, if not the world to live in. It is very prosperous, civilized and has a good standard of living.”
Do not believe that lie for one second. Agreeable? In some ways yes, but we have a better standard of living than any European country other than a few minor principalities.
I have a friend who is a schoolteacher in Norway who says that she literally has to bring a bagged lunch to work everyday because on a teacher’s salary she cannot afford to eat lunch in a restaurant. The hamburger fries and coke is about $30 American in Norwegian Krone.
Posted by at 10:33 PM on March 1
Why does the WSJ even bother running stories like this? As if they don’t already know what the answer is.
You know, I’m not much for “conspiracy theories”, but I’m convinced that the WSJ and other establishment rags run stories like this with the sole purpose of maintaining good public relations.
Simply to give off the impression that deep down inside the paper and the “good folks” who write for it are all dedicated and passionate egalitarians.
Posted by Meme at 5:01 AM on March 2
Dont worry when it comes time the Finns will surrender their ethnic identity and their homelands just like every other European people.
Their politicians will collaborate with the sort of international interests that work to destroy every eurocentric nation.
Posted by at 1:40 PM on March 2
…”better you not visit Oregon… this vision will rapidly alter!!!”!
Posted by at 1:38 PM on March 1
> I live in Vancouver, WA, across the river from Portland. Even though some Russians are responsible for some car theft and some hack shops do exist, they mostly sell to their own community, and steal the cars back, etc.! More than half of the Russians and Ukrainian immigrants were brought over after being converted to either Baptist or Pentecostal denominations of Christianity. They then claim oppression and get over on that issue. Most aver hard working, very good students, and do mind their own business. The Portland news is full of Hispanic, black and yes, even American White Trash crime stats with only an occassional Russian/Ukrainian. I go to their stores because I like some of the food. The owner there smiles and nods to me every time I come in after a short friendly conversation the first time. They are not always real friendly or open because they know that they are criticized. I have heard stories about how they can be obnoxious at garage sales or car auctions, but this is still a very small compliant compared to the raw crime stats provided by Hispanics and blacks.
I went to the famous old Oaks Park Amusement park last few years for a club party and note that the Hispanics are well on their way to taking it over. No Slavs anywhere that I notice. I knew one young man who got his face cut when he stood up for a woman he did not know in a bar who was being harassed by a Bosmian (Muslim from Bosnia who turned out to be here illegally). I respected him for that courage.
I would take three Russians and Ukrainians for every non-white we let into this country. And I would gladly replace some of our Northwest white trash with them as well.
Posted by Whiteplight at 4:20 PM on March 2
Re “wasted money”;how about Michelle Obamas 4 years at priceton and 3 at harvard law School?
Posted by SamFrancis at 4:34 PM on March 2
Obscuratus:
I think you are wrong. The damage done by the ‘Blitz’ was not as great as propaganda would have one believe. Even taking the most conservative estimate more then ten times as many German civilians were killed then Britons in bombing activity. This includes all casualties caused by the V rockets too. Finland also suffered very heavily in the Winter war and the Continuation war. It’s human losses were extremely high for a nation of only four million and it had to cede 11% of its national territory to the USSR, including some of the most valuable nickel mines in the world. That would be like America losing about 370,00 square miles of its land. To add insult to injury the Finns had to pay “reparations” to the Soviets. The Finns suffered very heavily in both wars. Perhaps the fact that the Finns chose to rebuild their country with their own sweat and labour instead of bringing in Carribbean blacks had something to do with it?
Posted by at 5:03 PM on March 2
If you go to the article, there is a link to a discussion. I signed in as a “visitor” and told them the truth, viz. that the giant elephant in the room that is being ignored is race and IQ. Put any group of above average IQ white kids who come from a homogeneous european society together and they will be a success. Put together a bunch of low life’s with a mean IQ of 80 and, no matter what you do, you will get failure. It is simply a matter of what you put into the system determining what comes out of it. I don’t know if my post on the WSJ got by the sensors but it is extremely painful to read morons perplexed by the same old question, to which the solution is already quite solidly proven, viz. that it is race and related IQ, that great elephant in the room, that make this a non problem. The irritating thing is that liberals will go on pondering this “problem” indefinitely because they refuse to accept science when it conflicts with their egalitarian quasi-religious world view. There are simply certain sociological problems that such people will never be able to solve, no matter how many olympic sized swimming pools they build for black kids, because they cannot, on ideological grounds accepts the facts. No matter what they do, the majority of black kids will be academic failures. It cannot be otherwise when their mean IQ is 80-85. Not realizing this is equivalent to being mystified at the fact that no matter how much training you give dogs, they simply will never grasp Kant’s categorical imperative or be able to do calculus. They are dogs, remember, and dogs are not all equal to humans whether you believe it or not. The egalitarian myth, that all humans are equally gifted in all ways including of course IQ is just one more myth, no matter how much the left has invested in it. I believe X, is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of X. It is this type of basic logic that the egalitarians can’t quite grasp.
Posted by at 7:29 PM on March 2
There seems to be a general consensus among opinion makers in America (and Europe) that racial blank-slatism is good for business.
In other words, I believe that “moral concerns” and or just plain liberal wooly-mindedness are NOT the primary reasons why racial egalitarianism is promoted by elite journals and institutions.
Posted by Meme at 10:52 PM on March 2
“This is a quite inaccurate comparison, as we all know that Britain took quite the hit to the economy from the “Blitz” - in fact, some point towards this economic devastation as one of the primary reason “The British Empire” was dismantled, as “Britannia” had neither the means nor desire to maintain colonies that didn’t profit Britain.”
Posted by Obscuratus at 4:45 PM on March 1
The British Empire was bankrupted by the disasterous Boer War in South Africa over a century ago. Little mentioned today, it compares rather well to the present US occupation of Iraq, which is also bankrupting a wealthy society. The Boer War was fought over mineral wealth, so is the war in Iraq.
Posted by Memphomaniac at 1:35 AM on March 3
“This is a quite inaccurate comparison, as we all know that Britain took quite the hit to the economy from the “Blitz” - in fact, some point towards this economic devastation as one of the primary reason “The British Empire” was dismantled, as “Britannia” had neither the means nor desire to maintain colonies that didn’t profit Britain. “
——————————-
Nonsense. Do you suppose that Finland was untouched by the war?
And the profitability of Britain’s empire was not the reason the Labour Party was determined to dismantle it, and had pledged that it would do so after the war was ended.
K. Digby has stated the case correctly.
Posted by at 2:56 AM on March 3
Question:
If the people of Finland are so great, then why is their suicide
rate so high? Finland has one of the highest per capita suicide
rates in the world.
Can anyone explain?
Posted by Leroy at 6:43 AM on March 3
Obscuratus,
Finland is only a small country which suffered a devastating invasion from a neighbor many, many times bigger and stonger.It lost a good amount of productive territory to the USSR and had to pay enormous reparations - the burden they suffered was orders of magnitude greater than anything the British suffered.
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 6:59 AM on March 3
I have a friend who is a schoolteacher in Norway who says that she literally has to bring a bagged lunch to work everyday because on a teacher’s salary she cannot afford to eat lunch in a restaurant. The hamburger fries and coke is about $30 American in Norwegian Krone.
You or your friend doesn’t know anything or another of you is liar… For example normal construction worker makes about 15 euros per hour and bigmac meal costs 5 euros. And it is really american way to compare coutries that way… how much fast food costs… yeah right.
Posted by at 8:33 AM on March 3
“If the people of Finland are so great, then why is their suicide
rate so high?”
Because Finnish people are white. Whites always have the highest suicide rates. It’s from the pressure of having to put up with hostile aliens for so long. At this point, it’s in their genes.
Posted by at 10:11 AM on March 3
As a half-finn, I am proud to read this.
“If the people of Finland are so great, then why is their suicide
rate so high?”
Factors include excessive drinking and a lack of sunlight in the winter months (only five or six hours of sunlight each day during December and January). Also, Finns tend to be melancholic and have difficulty showing their feelings.
I recall reading somewhere that Finns have some Mongoloid genes, although there is an article in the current Mankind Quarterly opposing this view, arguing instead that Finns are closely related to other Nordic peoples. Nevertheless, there are some similarities between Finnish culture and northeast Asian cultures like Japan and Korea.
Posted by Markus at 11:40 AM on March 3
LEROY:
The many months of continuous darkness may be a factor. This was also found to affect German troops stationed there in WW2.
Posted by at 12:55 PM on March 3
It appears the more introspective and self-critical you are, the higher your suicide rate. It has many other advantages though, like self-control and delayed gratification and quality work ethic. It’s just one of those evolutionary tradeoffs.
Posted by Diamed at 2:38 PM on March 3
“If the people of Finland are so great, then why is their suicide
rate so high?”
Could it also be those long, dark, cold winters? I’ve also heard that the Finns tend to have a rather dour disposition.
Posted by at 5:22 PM on March 3
Finland also has a very high per-capita crime rate. More so than
the United States and more so than many other countries, both
white and non-white.
Posted by Open Mind at 9:11 PM on March 3
Look - I appreciate the “gesture”, but I’m not arguing that “Britain was worse off than Finland” in World War 2, or words to that effect.
And I’ll repeat the statement of “Kenelm Digby”, just for those of you “refuting” me:
“*Compare and contrast with Great Britain, which was many, many times richer in 1940 - and much more industrialised, put simply Britain failed to make any progress in the post-war years.”*
Of course, I’m sure Finland also had to deal with mass-migration of native Finns seeking better opportunities elsewhere..
“Perhaps the fact that the Finns chose to rebuild their country with their own sweat and labour instead of *bringing in Carribbean blacks* had something to do with it?”
Question: Why did Britain “need” to bring in those Carribbean blacks? It couldn’t have anything to do with, oh, I don’t know, *mass post-War migration from Britain*?
Of course, it’s an inaccurate comparison as *nearly every single country made great post-War gains compared to the United Kingdom* - West Germany, France, Finland etc, so maybe there were more factors than “just” those “lazy Brits”?
Posted by Obscuratus at 9:58 PM on March 3
“You or your friend don’t know anything, or one of you is liar… For example [a] normal construction worker makes about 15 euros per hour, and bigmac meal costs 5 euros. And it is really american way to compare countries that way… how much fast food costs?… yeah right. “
Posted by at 8:33 AM
……………………..
Thank you. I’ve never been in Norway, so I couldn’t comment, but I wanted to. I know that food costs in Europe are very high (but so are salaries, particularly in Norway). Even so, I was very dubious about that claim. Thirty dollars? Come now!!! Switzerland is very hign — but not that high. Norwegians aren’t going hungry, I’m sure. Either your teacher friend doesn’t know how to budget her money, or more probably she’s just whining from some other motive. I don’t believe her.
Posted by ghw at 10:54 PM on March 3
“To add insult to injury the Finns had to pay “reparations” to the Soviets. The Finns suffered very heavily in both wars. Perhaps the fact that the Finns chose to rebuild their country with their own sweat and labour instead of bringing in Carribbean blacks had something to do with it? “
Posted by at 5:03 PM
And am I mistaken, or do I correctly recall reading that the Finns (after all those terrible losses) were the only ones who ever repaid their war debt to the USA? It seems I did read that somewhere.
Posted by at 10:55 PM on March 3
“Put together a bunch of low life’s with a mean IQ of 80 and, no matter what you do, you will get failure. It is simply a matter of what you put into the system determining what comes out of it.” — 7:29PM
—————-
That’s only simple common sense, really. As any good cook knows, you’re not going to bake a delicious cake, or turn out a first class meal if you don’t start out with first class ingredients that you put into it.
Why is it so difficult for them to understand this same concept in human terms?
As you say, “There are certain sociological problems that such people will never be able to solve, no matter how many olympic-sized swimming pools they build for black kids, because they cannot, on ideological grounds, accepts the facts.” Exactly!
Posted by at 10:56 PM on March 3
Open Mind:
What you have said is RIDICULOUS! Why don’t you cite your supposed ‘sources’? I would rather walk around Helsinki at night then Detroit!
Posted by at 3:39 PM on March 4
Obscuratus,
My point really is that post World War 2, Great Britain was unquestionably the second biggest industrial power in the world - it had thriving motor, shipbuilding, textile, electronics, iron and steel etc etc industries - whilst Finland had next to none.Anyone alive then would have put money on Britain thriving and building up its industrial base even higher, as it had every advantage of a long industrial tradition, good technical education and a strong finance sector.
But 60 years later Britain has been stripped off virtually all of its industries whilst Finland built up a good electronics, shipbuilding and mechanical engineering sector from scratch.
The question is why?
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 6:37 AM on March 5
“post World War 2 Great Britain was unquestionably the second biggest industrial power in the world - it had thriving motor, shipbuilding, textile, electronics, iron and steel etc etc industries - whilst Finland had next to none.Anyone alive then would have put money on Britain thriving and building up its industrial base even higher”
Digby
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To my memory, Britain was known as “the world’s workshop” — while all Finland was known for was wooden matchsticks!
Posted by at 1:24 PM on March 5
“Finland also has a very high per-capita crime rate. More so than the United States and more so than other countries, both white and
non white.”
“Open Mind, what you have said is RIDICULOUS. Why don’t you cite your supposed sources”
Ok. Go to www.nationmaster.com Click the crime category, click
select crime stat, click per-capita crime and read all about it.
Posted by Open Mind at 9:37 PM on March 5
> Ok. Go to www.nationmaster.com Click the crime category, click
select crime stat, click per-capita crime and read all about it.
I did. Any statistics that has Yemen, India and Azerbaijan as the top three almost-crime-free countries compared to Dominica, New Zealand and Finland as the top three crime-riddled countries looks quite suspect to me. There are other oddities there too. But as long as one second pondering of facts is good enough for you, it should be good enough for us lesser beings. Right?
Posted by OH NO at 2:12 PM on March 6
Open Mind:
I would trust my common sense and personal experience over some suspect website. Again I would much rather take my chances walking alone at night in Helsinki or any other Finnish city, over Detroit, Harlem, Watts, D.C. etc. I think your mind is not so much open as empty, even inert.
Posted by at 3:53 PM on March 6
Perhaps Yemen has low crime because criminals there don’t get any second chance to be recidivists. In fact, they probably know better even before the first time!
Posted by at 4:12 PM on March 6
3:53:
In fact what open mind said is correct.
Posted by Reader at 2:05 AM on March 7
> In fact what open mind said is correct.
True. What he wrote is:
==
“Finland also has a very high per-capita crime rate. More so than the United States and more so than other countries, both white and non white.”
“Open Mind, what you have said is RIDICULOUS. Why don’t you cite your supposed sources”
Ok. Go to www.nationmaster.com Click the crime category, click
select crime stat, click per-capita crime and read all about it.
==
This is the truth by www.nationmaster.com and there might be many truths in the amount of (reported and put-in-books) cases of bicycle thefts and so forth (yes, yes, even the drunken fights are somewhat more common amongst Finns, but that is like Scotland and never concerns normal citizens, but you are free to make your case about some unfortunate individuals).
The only question, besides truth, is “is it relevant”.
Now, I already wrote what I wrote. You be the judge.
Posted by OH NO at 1:00 PM on March 7
Could it be that Finland is just more conscientious and meticulous about recording crimes than Yemen?
Also, what is regarded as “crime” in a place like Yemen may be seen very differently than in Finland. Such a thing as child sexual abuse or domestic violence may be viewed very lightly (or even tolerantly) while having a cartoon or teddy bear named Mohammed would get you the death penalty.
Even getting raped would be a crime in Yemen, while COMMITTING the rape would be considered a crime in Finland.
I also agree that criminals in Yemen probably don’t get a second chance.
Posted by voter at 6:24 PM on March 7