TRANSCRIPT: CNN’s Fareed Zakaria Interviews Jared Taylor

Editor’s Note: An audio recording of this interview is available here.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, Mr. Taylor, thank you so much for doing this. It’s-

Jared Taylor:                     It’s my pleasure.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Tell me, what is your basic objective? You know, if you think about this philosophically, what are you trying to do?

Jared Taylor:                     I consider myself a white advocate. That is to say, I speak up for the legitimate interests of white people. Every other racial group has organizations, lobbies, even congressional Caucuses that look out for their interests, but only whites are not considered a legitimate group for those purposes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And to your mind, what are those interests? What is your objective? If you could achieve it, what would it look like?

Jared Taylor:                     Well, one of our objectives, of course, is to end racial discrimination against whites in the form of affirmative action. That’s obviously in our interests. Another, is to slow, or stop, or perhaps even reverse the dispossession of whites as a majority in this country. The idea that we’re supposed to be celebrating diversity means only that whites are to celebrate their dwindling numbers and declining influence. I don’t think any healthy people wants to become a minority in its own country, especially for those of us who are living here in the nation that was built by our ancestors. Why should we wish to become a minority? So, that is a key interest of whites who are aware of the crisis that we face. And I would add that this is a similar understanding of whites all around the world, in Europe, and, especially Europe, where they see immigration reducing whites to a minority. They simply don’t want to be replaced.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Who are whites?

Jared Taylor:                     Whites are the people whose ancestors were living in Europe about five hundred years ago, and most of the time we have no difficulty distinguishing whites from other people. I think the idea that race is somehow a sociological optical illusion is some kind of modern fad and it’s not based in biology. It’s based in wishful thinking.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, but let me ask you about that, because most of these racial categories come out of the 19th century. Many of them with Germany, German scholarship, and the original term used, as you know, was Caucasian.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Now, I think scholars would agree, I have as good a claim on being Caucasian, as you do. Caucasian meant people who come out of central Asia, out of the Caucasus. In fact the term Aryan, which is another one that is often used-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Comes specifically out of India, which is where I grew up. And it comes out of about 2000 B.C. there was an Aryan invasion, which drove the original inhabitants of India way down south. So, why am I not a Caucasian?

Jared Taylor:                     By certain definitions, you might very well be a Caucasian. But, genetic research shows that people who are living in Europe, who are descended from Europeans over the last five hundred to a thousand years have definite genetic clusters. And it shows in their appearance as well. It’s really not very difficult, either visually or genetically, to distinguish Europeans from non-Europeans.

Fareed Zakaria:                 You know that most scientists would disagree on the genetic point part, which is that there is race… Ethnicity has some genetic basis, but race, for example, really doesn’t in the sense that there are people… You know, the argument used to be made that was… That these Caucasians migrated and traveled to Europe and that’s why they’re called Caucasians. So, presumably that’s the same genetic stock.

Jared Taylor:                     On the contrary, people who really do study this matter carefully will show you, you can graphically represent the kind of genetic clusterings that reflect Europeans, that reflect Middle Easterners, that reflect Subcontinental Indians, for example. The clusters are distinct and different. And that is what’s reflected in the phenotypes, the fact that Europeans look different from Indians, or from Middle Easterners, or from North Africans.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, I’m a Caucasian and an Aryan, but not a white, according to you?

Jared Taylor:                     I don’t wish to split hairs about these matters.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well you are advocating policies that would-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Discriminate against people, throw then out of the country on the basis of these issues.

Jared Taylor:                     Oh no, no, no.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So I’m just trying to understand who is what.

Jared Taylor:                     Please, please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not talking about throwing anyone out. I’ve never proposed such a thing.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well you supported Donald Trumps proposal to have illegal immigrants leave. I’ve heard you tell Jorge Ramos that you thought, under certain circumstances, he should leave the country. So, all I’m saying is, if you are advocating policies based on racial categories, I just want to understand where I fit in.

Jared Taylor:                     I think most people would not consider you white, but I’ve never talked-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But it’s not a popularity contest, is it?

Jared Taylor:                     I beg your pardon?

Fareed Zakaria:                 It’s not a popularity contest, it’s a… Either this is a scientific fact or it isn’t, and all I’m saying is, I think there’s a fair amount of scientific evidence that would suggest that I’m Caucasian and Aryan. And… But doesn’t that count in your book?

Jared Taylor:                     Again, my definition would be those whose ancestors were living in Europe five hundred years ago.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Okay.

Jared Taylor:                     [crosstalk 00:05:09]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, in that case, I’m trying… Again, just trying to understand.

Jared Taylor:                     All right.

Fareed Zakaria:                 A lot of the people you want out of this country, or slow the immigration down.

Jared Taylor:                     Again, again… Look, look, look. Out of the country. We were talking just earlier about sending illegal immigrants back.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Right.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes, I think that’s fully legitimate. I’ve never-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But one of the reasons you want to get rid of them is because they come from a different race, or because they’re not white, right? I mean, I presume you don’t mind if there were a lot of British citizens… You know, British illegals coming in.

Jared Taylor:                     I don’t like the idea of illegal immigrant from anywhere, but-

Fareed Zakaria:                 No, but I just want to understand if-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But the particular problem is that they are not white, right?

Jared Taylor:                     Yes, it’s… Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, what I’m trying to understand is if the argument is that the people you like are people who lived in Europe five hundred years ago. So Hispanics are white in that sense. I mean the term Hispanic comes from the Roman term for the Iberian Peninsula, Spain, why are Hispanics not okay? They are European.

Jared Taylor:                     Spaniards are Europeans, but the people who qualify as Hispanic, they can come from Honduras, or Guatemala, or Mexico. They may be Mestizos of some sort, but they have a large admixture of American Indian. They are genetically.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, look, we understand… Yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     They’re genetically, and visually, and physically different from Europeans.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But if they came from Argentina, which has a huge European population, would that be okay?

Jared Taylor:                     So long as they are Europeans. Europeans have assimilated practically without any difficulty here in the United States.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But how would you distinguish, because if they came from Argentina… What I’m trying to understand is, how would you figure out whether they’re Hispanic or… Because if you want Europeans in, a large number of Latin Americans have very strong European ancestry.

Jared Taylor:                     Tell me this.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Why is that not okay?

Jared Taylor:                     Tell me this. How does our alma mater, Yale, distinguish between whites and non-whites for affirmative action purposes? Or for special services in terms of community organizing. There’s no-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But you have to decide, because you’re advocating policies based on… I’m not, at this point, trying to make these distinctions. I’m trying to ask you, since you are, what are the distinctions based on?

Jared Taylor:                     The whole country makes these distinctions, all the time. And that is one of the sources of tremendous and perpetual tension in this country. [crosstalk 00:07:34]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I still don’t understand why, if you want Europeans and Argentine, or somebody who came from, you know, Central America, who has Hispanic, Spanish ancestry, Italian ancestry, French ancestry.

Jared Taylor:                     If they’re Europeans, that’s fine. Yeah.

Fareed Zakaria:                 How would you figure that out?

Jared Taylor:                     Oh, most of the time it’s not all that difficult to tell.

Fareed Zakaria:                 How?

Jared Taylor:                     Even just from visual inspection. But genetic tests are likewise possible.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So you look at people-

Jared Taylor:                     Look, this is-

Fareed Zakaria:                 And try to figure out how white they were?

Jared Taylor:                     This is very much an artificial discussion.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Why?

Jared Taylor:                     In the United States today, there is seldom any disagreement as to whether this person is Asian, this person is Hispanic, this person is European. This is really artificial.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I think you’re not getting around enough. There’s a lot of intermarriage, there’re a lot of people who look mixed, or a lot of… I mean, I’ve traveled around Latin America, there are parts of Latin America where you would think you were in Europe, in terms of the population.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, I think you have a little bit… I mean, you’ll have to do one of these things that they did during, you know, slavery and segregation, of figuring out how many drops of blood, and how many grandparents you had that were European.

Jared Taylor:                     I think most of the time, for most purposes, it’s not difficult to distinguish whites from people who are not white. And if it ever comes to this, there’ll be genetic ways of doing so. I don’t believe that’s likely to be a problem. And, as I said earlier, the United States-

Fareed Zakaria:                 You think there’s a… Just so I understand-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 There’s a genetic way to determine-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 The difference between somebody who is Spanish and somebody who lives in Argentina and has a little bit of, you know, has intermixed with the population a little bit?

Jared Taylor:                     Oh yes, those things are very easy to determine. You can determine whether someone is European, or how much of his ancestor’s-

Fareed Zakaria:                 And what’s the problem with the person who, way back when, may have married somebody… What is the-

Jared Taylor:                     Look. I’m not-

Fareed Zakaria:                 What is the problem with intermarriage? What does it do? I just want to understand.

Jared Taylor:                     What, intermarriage?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah, what does it do?

Jared Taylor:                     Well-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So suppose that Spaniard had intermarried with somebody in Argentina.

Jared Taylor:                     Right.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Some, you know. And was Mestizo in that sense. What’s the problem?

Jared Taylor:                     That person, as far as I’m concerned is no longer fully European or white.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And-

Jared Taylor:                     It’s the same with marriage with-

Fareed Zakaria:                 And what’s the problem with that?

Jared Taylor:                     Because I want my people, who I consider Europeans, to survive into the future. And I’ll tell you a story about a discussion I had with a fellow named Wilfred Reilly. We were debating the question of whether diversity is good for the United States or not. He took the position that it is. And he said, “With increasing non-white immigration, and increasing intermarriage, two hundred years from now, there’ll be no more white people. And that’s a good thing.” In my view, I want white people to continue, even passed two hundred years. I think this is natural, normal and healthy. I don’t want my people to disappear. It’s a matter of-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Even though you don’t quite know what white means.

Jared Taylor:                     Oh, I know very well what white means. You don’t, but I do.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, one of the things you said earlier-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Is that, what you want to preserve is the sort of culture, the nation, and you quote a Frenchman who says, “What a nation is, is the shared legacy that people have. The shared history that people have of having lived together.”

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And I’m wondering, so if I look back on Catholics and Protestants in Europe, they have no shared history other than a shared history of slaughter. Mass slaughter. You know, the religious wars killed almost a third of the German population. And yet now they live happily together. Is it possible that… Yeah, no, of course, there were people in those days arguing precisely what you’re arguing.

Jared Taylor:                     [crosstalk 00:11:16].

Fareed Zakaria:                 That Catholics were people who couldn’t be integrated to, you know, into European societies. In this country, as you know, many Irish… Many, you know, whites considered Irish and Italians to be essentially sub-human. And yet they’ve now all kind of mingled together in exactly that kind of horrible mixture that you’ve been decrying.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m worrying, could it be that you’re wrong, and that we’ll mingle together, and be happy and create a new culture?

Jared Taylor:                     Look, all of us can be wrong, theoretically wrong. But what you’re talking about is dicing with the future of my people, of my race. And if I’m right, and you’re wrong, then my people disappear. And it’s right for me to oppose that.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But what I’m trying to get at… No, I understand, but what I’m trying to get at is, people like you, several centuries ago argued that if Catholics and Protestants lived together, it would be ruinous. That if Irish and English lived together, it would be ruinous. If Italians and Nordic people lived together, it would be ruinous. And they’ve all come together. So much so, that you now make no distinction between these people, when there used to be deep distinctions made. And I could read you stuff that people said, but you know it.

Jared Taylor:                     First of all-

Fareed Zakaria:                 In the nineteenth century, they talk about the Jewish race, the Irish race, the Italian race as very distinct, from the Anglo-Saxon race. And here you are lumping them all together as white. Aren’t you guilty of the same kind of miscegenation that you’re accusing others of?

Jared Taylor:                     Whites among themselves have had many reasons to slaughter each other. We are not exempt from that kind of fratricidal enmity. But in the larger scheme of things, Protestants and Catholics have far more in common with each other, certainly they do, than with Muslims or Hindus, or [crosstalk 00:13:04]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But you say this now. That was not the view in the fifteenth century.

Jared Taylor:                     Look… Does that mean that people are not allowed to change their minds? The idea that [crosstalk 00:13:13]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So it could be that a hundred years from now, people will look back and say, “Well it turns out that, you know, Americans and Hispanics… You know, whites and Hispanics had lots in common.”

Jared Taylor:                     And blacks, and Asians, and everyone else. If I’m wrong, then my people have disappeared, and that’s not a risk I’m willing to take. And-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m just trying to understand who your people are, because as I said, used to be that they were Nordic Protestants. Then, now you’re saying it’s Europeans, but not including Hispanics who might have intermarried in some way.

Jared Taylor:                     Well Hispanics are not Europeans in the sense that they have lived for a long time in Central America. Many of the Hispanics coming here are obviously Amerindian rather than European. And-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Are Albanians Europeans?

Jared Taylor:                     Albanians, I would consider them Europeans.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Even though they’re Muslim?

Jared Taylor:                     Even though they’re Muslims. It’s a race, not a religion, you know?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     Some are… Some Europeans are Muslims. There’s not a very large number of them though.

Fareed Zakaria:                 When you… You’ve talked admiringly about the leaders of Eastern Europe, who talk about, in a sense, kind of preserving their nation in very similar ways, that have racial overtones.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So I look at somebody like Viktor Orban in Hungary, and I assume you admire him.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes, I think he is a great patriot for Hungary.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, one of the things that I’m struck by, is when you look at the history of Hungary, Hungary is a complete mishmash of different, you know, people who have came from all over. There is no real Hungarian kind of nationality as such. These are all polyglot populations.

Jared Taylor:                     Have you ever been to Hungary?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Of course I’ve been to Hungary.

Jared Taylor:                     If you look around Hungary, if you look around Budapest, you find the people that has a certain quality of Hungarianess. They speak a language. Many of them are of the same religion. They [crosstalk 00:14:55]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But you know that many of them didn’t-

Jared Taylor:                     Well let me… Please let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     And they have the right to preserve whatever it is they have become, just as Japanese for example, or Turks, or Vietnamese. They have the right to preserve whatever it is they have become. They have the right not to be replaced and displaced by people unlike themselves.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I just-

Jared Taylor:                     And so do Europeans in France, and Germany, and Italy. And also in India, for example.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, I just… I guess-

Jared Taylor:                     If Indians were being filled up with Pakistanis, or Arabs, they wouldn’t like it one bit.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But that’s a fascinating point you make, because Indians and Pakistanis are identical in ethnic terms.

Jared Taylor:                     That may be, but they don’t mix very well either. I’m not saying that race is the only social fault line, I’m saying it’s just the most serious one.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But there is no racial difference between Indians and Pakistanis, there is a religious one.

Jared Taylor:                     There are many fault lines, and religion is certainly one of them. My point is that the diversity-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But I just… I’m trying to get at the arbitrariness of these distinctions, because you talk about France. So Eugen Weber, great French historian pointed out, that I think it was in 1850, almost half of the people living in France didn’t speak French. They were Bretons, and you know, they came from various provinces.

Jared Taylor:                     That’s true.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And they didn’t think of themselves as French.

Jared Taylor:                     That’s true.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So you treat these categories as so firm and hardened, whereas-

Jared Taylor:                     Not at all.

Fareed Zakaria:                 In fact all these countries had polyglot populations, they spoke different languages. And now you’re giving them this unity that never existed.

Jared Taylor:                     Not at all. Not at all. I think if regions of France wishes to be independent, they should have that right. The Breton, to the extent that they have a Breton nationalism. Or the Gascons, or the people of the south at Picardy. They should, likewise, have an opportunity to express their culture.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Right.

Jared Taylor:                     And the only way they can do it is if they remain Breton. And if they get filled up with people from all around the world, then the chances of their having a Breton culture, and a destiny that is the same as the… The kind of heritage that is there becomes zero. I’m not asking anything special for white people. I think all people deserve the right to have a future that reflects their culture, their genetic substrate. And if whites are allowed to have this, I agree that everyone should have that right. No one should force a group of people to undergo some kind of population substitution, which is something that we demand only of whites.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So-

Jared Taylor:                     Nobody’s saying the Japanese have to have a huge immigration policy that reduces them to a minority.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So let me ask you, you talked… You used the word replacement, and you’ve used it often.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes. Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 What is your fear? What is… What do you worry about?

Jared Taylor:                     My fear? Of disappearing. Like this fellow that I debated with, he says, “Two hundred years from now, no more white people.” Should I want my people to disappear?

Fareed Zakaria:                 You remember in Charlottesville, there were people who were chanting, “The Jews will not replace us.”? Is that how you feel? I mean, you could use any other term for Jews, be it Hispanics, blacks, whatever, issues.

Jared Taylor:                     The point is a people being substituted for another people. That is what I oppose. I oppose that for my people, as well as for any other people. And that… It is entirely profoundly moral to resist that kind of replacement. And it-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Even though what you call replacement, has really been the co-mingling. Which has happened through most of these countries, as I’m saying, whether you look at France, which has had brought people in from all parts of Europe. If you look at what has happened in the United States-

Jared Taylor:                     All parts of Europe?

Fareed Zakaria:                 If you look at what has happened to, you know, places like England, what you’re calling replacement, has also been a historical process of mingling that has happened forever.

Jared Taylor:                     If you’re telling me that the Angles, and the Saxons, and the Jutes, and the Norsemen, yes, they have mingled to some degree in the United Kingdom. And you’re telling me that-

Fareed Zakaria:                 And the French. Don’t forget the Norman invasion.

Jared Taylor:                     Hold on, hold on. Okay. Hold on. Okay. Hold on. In that case… And you’re telling me, “Well if the Haitians, or the Guatemalans, or the Vietnamese, or the Chinese come, it’ll work out in exactly the same way.”

Fareed Zakaria:                 So why won’t it?

Jared Taylor:                     It will work out, but I don’t think that anything that is uniquely British, distinctly British, will remain. The [crosstalk 00:19:07]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, what if it turns out that there’re a whole bunch of Frenchmen and Jutes and Nordics and… Isn’t it something you’re kind of-

Jared Taylor:                     You really don’t believe any population is distinct from another? You really believe that?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well what… I’m trying to understand what population means? Is it a racial category, is it a religious category, is it an… You’re kind of jump…

Jared Taylor:                     It can be all of these things.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Right, you choose whichever one you like.

Jared Taylor:                     No.

Fareed Zakaria:                 As I pointed out, in scientific terms, I’m Aryan and Caucasian, but yet you don’t regard me as white.

Jared Taylor:                     No.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m not sure how you… You make these southern Italians, for example, people who came from Sicily, were generally regarded as close to being black. Certainly not being white when they came to this country. Now I’m presuming you regard them as your fellow white citizens.

Jared Taylor:                     Some of them have a North African admixture, it’s true. And so do Portuguese, but yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And so they’re ruled out?

Jared Taylor:                     People… No they’re not being ruled out. Look, you really are hung up on this idea of some kind of [crosstalk 00:20:05]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m trying to understand… You want to make fairly-

Jared Taylor:                     No, no.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Substantial public policy on the basis of it, I want to know who these… Who’s we, and who’s they?

Jared Taylor:                     Mr. Zakaria, public policy is already made on the basis of race all the time, and almost never is there any confusion as to what race someone is. Almost never. Why this becomes-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m not advocating that…

Jared Taylor:                     All right.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’ve never been a particular advocate of those policies in the first place.

Jared Taylor:                     All right. All I’m saying is this is not nearly as complicated a matter as you suggest.

Fareed Zakaria:                 All right. Let me ask you another philosophical thing, which I think underlies, tell me if I’m wrong.

Jared Taylor:                     All right.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Is that you don’t think all races are equal.

Jared Taylor:                     No, I do not. And I don’t see why anyone would. Why would anyone think that Congo Pygmies, on average, are as intelligent as Koreans. There’s no evidence for this.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So when Thomas Jefferson writes in the Declaration of Independence, “All men are created equal.” You don’t believe that?

Jared Taylor:                     He did not believe it. Did he think every human-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well I’m asking you what you believe.

Jared Taylor:                     Of course not. No human on earth thinks that every person is equal. They may be equal before the law.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So you don’t believe the Declaration of Independence. That was kind of… As an immigrant, I was told that’s kind of important to being an American.

Jared Taylor:                     The Declaration of Independence had a particular purpose. It was to explain to the world why we were separating from England. H.L. Mencken has an interesting, burlesque translation into English of the Declaration, and when he gets to that point, he translates it as, “Me and you are as good as the next guy, maybe better.” These are American colonists explaining to King George, “Look, we are not intimidated by you. We are going our own way.” And if you wish to interpret that clause as equal genetically, biologically, in talents, abilities, that is obvious foolishness. If you wish to interpret it, equal before the law, then that’s fine. And that has no particular significant meaning. Thomas Jefferson himself said the Declaration had served its purpose of parting ties with England. Other than that, it had no particular, new, or interesting, or significant ideas.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So when Lincoln says in the Gettysburg address, “This is a nation dedicated to a proposition.”

Jared Taylor:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Fareed Zakaria:                 And the proposition he is referring to is, that all men are created equal. He is also wrong?

Jared Taylor:                     Well, they’re created equal before the law. The idea… He himself… His idea of the future of the United States, once the slaves were free, was to send them away. He himself had no intention of living in a society, a mixed racial society of the kind we have today. It was obvious that he was not saying equal in any literal or physical sense. Equal perhaps for the law. Do you believe all people are equal in any way?

Fareed Zakaria:                 But if they’re-

Jared Taylor:                     In what way are you and I absolutely equal?

Fareed Zakaria:                 If they’re equal before the law, Mr. Taylor-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 How could you expel certain citizens based on their racial categorization?

Jared Taylor:                     How many times-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Surely there will be a distinction made on the basis of race. They’re not equal-

Jared Taylor:                     How many times do I have to tell you, I’m not talking about expelling anyone.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, you’ve said, as I point out, I think I’m reflecting your views accurately, that you think illegal immigrants should be expelled, and you think… Your problem with illegal immigrants is two-fold, to be fair. One, is that they’re illegal.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But two, is that they’re not white.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Right? And so what that suggests to me is that you have a different standard for somebody who was white, than non-white. And I’m suggesting that that is a difference in equality under the law. I might-

Jared Taylor:                     Oh, not necessarily. Not necessarily. The Congressional Black Caucus, they have a different standard for black interests, as opposed to everybody else’s interests. Their purpose is to-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But if you decry them-

Jared Taylor:                     Let me finish. Let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you decry them, or do you want to copy them?

Jared Taylor:                     No. No, no. I think… It’s entirely understandable. They are speaking up for their people. And I think Whites have the right to speak up for their people as well. We have an Asian Caucus, we have a Hispanic Caucus. All this recognizes is that people have different group interests. And once again, when it comes to determining who’s in the Black Congressional Caucus, there’s almost never any debate as to whether or not someone is black. This is an artificial objection that you have raised.

Fareed Zakaria:                 If the average test scores-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Of some population is the way you determine whether somebody is superior, or some race is superior to another, as you know, North Asians do better than whites.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes, they do.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So are they a superior race?

Jared Taylor:                     I think, in terms of IQ, yes they are superior. By practically every index, East Asians are superior to whites. [crosstalk 00:24:49]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So would it be all right for them to, in some way, discriminate, subjugate whites, because they think that they are superior?

Jared Taylor:                     Of course not. Of course not. I don’t think… Races are different. I’m not saying that one is superior to another-

Fareed Zakaria:                 You just said-

Jared Taylor:                     Necessarily, but in those terms, you could objectively say-

Fareed Zakaria:                 You said whites were superior to blacks, North Asians are superior to whites.

Jared Taylor:                     Look, look, look, look. Wait. Wait, wait, wait.

Fareed Zakaria:                 You have a racial hierarchy.

Jared Taylor:                     There are certain parameters according to which that’s true. Athletically, I think you can make a good argument that blacks are superior to whites. The races are simply different. And to insist on calling this superiority, inferiority is an unnecessary, invidious comparison.

Fareed Zakaria:                 How could you distinguish-

Jared Taylor:                     Let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     Let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Sure.

Jared Taylor:                     I do believe that East Asians, for genetic reasons have a somewhat higher IQ than whites. I think they also are less likely to commit crime. They have lower illegitimacy rates. They live longer than whites. I think there’s a genetic component probably to all of this. This doesn’t mean that I want to turn my country over to anybody else. White people, just like the people of Irian Jaya, or any place on earth, have the right to build a society and live in a society that reflects their values.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So you know that, of course, none of these Asian values, or Asian traits are very prominent among North Koreans. Which suggests, of course, that a lot of this has to do with wealth, health care, education and things like that.

Jared Taylor:                     I have no doubt-

Fareed Zakaria:                 North Korea and South Korea is the same race-

Jared Taylor:                     Yeah.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And yet there’s dramatic differences, because of all kinds of things that have to do with public policy, education, income.

Jared Taylor:                     Do you really doubt-

Fareed Zakaria:                 How do you make sense of that?

Jared Taylor:                     Do you really doubt that if the North Koreans, after a generation, are living under South Korean circumstances, that by all of these standards, they will be that easily distinguishable from South Koreans?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, but my point is that, the fact that they’re not, shows that it’s not just race. There are many other factors that-

Jared Taylor:                     Of course. Of course. Environment can make a difference. The Eastern Europeans, the East Germans, they were much poorer than the West Germans, but because they were basically German. Once the two sides reunited, you had a united Germany, and it becomes increasingly difficult to tell the Ossies and the Wessies.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Let me ask you about something that I’m genuinely interested in your views on.

Jared Taylor:                     Sure.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So as you know, in the 70’s and 80’s, there was a great deal of concern. Really from the 60’s onward, about what was happening in inner cities to blacks. High degrees of drug use, violence, family breakup.

Jared Taylor:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Fareed Zakaria:                 And people wrote lots of essays, and tried to figure out what was going on. And the argument was often made that there was something about black culture that had lead to this. Sociologist, named William Julius Wilson, wrote a book that was called ‘When Work Disappears’, and he said, “Actually this is not black culture. What’s happening here is the deindustrialization of the Northeast in particular. All these places that have no jobs. And when you have no jobs, when work disappears, you begin to see family breakdown, you see violence, you see crime, you see drug use.” So now when you look at the Upper Midwest, or you look at parts of Pennsylvania, parts of West Virginia, you see precisely these pathologies that were often associated with blacks among whites. You see family breakdown, you see massive use of drugs. Eighty percent of opioid uses is whites. You see crime. You see all the same pathologies. So doesn’t that tell you that a lot of these things that often are attributed to race or culture are actually rooted in something quite simple to understand, such as jobs.

Jared Taylor:                     I would never argue that environment counts for nothing. And large structural aspects of an environment will inevitably have some kind of effect people. What I’m saying is that groups are not identical, and if you’re talking about an Asian population, or a white population, or a black population, they will react differently to this kind of change in the environment. At the same time, something that I think is important to understand about what’s called current white pathology, is the realization that every time white people turn around, they’re being accused of racism. Whether conscious or unconscious. They’re being accused of benefiting from illegitimate white privilege. Whites are constantly being told that you are to blame for all of the ills that have ever befallen any other non-white group in the history of America, all of this is very distressing, and depressing. They’re also being told, “Pretty soon you’re going to be a minority. We are celebrating diversity. Diversity means fewer of you guys.” I can’t prove it, but I suspect that that contributes to some of what’s called white pathology.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you think… I mean you’re… How would I put it? Do you think that any middle class, upper middle class white would ever switch roles with a black person? In other words, if blacks have all these advantages in America today, would you change places?

Jared Taylor:                     Would a black person change places with a white person?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, either. Would you?

Jared Taylor:                     No, I don’t wish to change places with anyone. I like being white. It’s okay to be white, as the new slogan would proclaim. No, I like being white. My people have been white for 40,000 years, [crosstalk 00:30:22]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 What does it mean? I have to confess, I don’t understand. How… What does it mean to feel okay being white? How do you feel differently than I feel? I kind of feel like we’re very similar people.

Jared Taylor:                     Tell me this. Tell me this. If someone told you, “I am black, and I like being black.” Would you probe into that? Would you say, “Well what does that mean?”

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     “What can that possibly mean?”

Fareed Zakaria:                 I would.

Jared Taylor:                     I think you’d get a legitimate answer. Likewise, if you ask someone, “Are you Asian? What does it feel to be Asian?” You would get an answer-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well I can… It’s funny, because people often say that to me, and I think it’s kind of a ridiculous assertion, because there is no such thing as Asian.

Jared Taylor:                     Well, okay.

Fareed Zakaria:                 There’s Chinese people, there’s Japanese people, and Indians. And within India there are 15 different languages officially.

Jared Taylor:                     Of course. Of course.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So the whole… I mean, it just strikes me that these things are entirely constructed. And so you make my point, there is no such thing as Asian, it’s frankly a western construct over a vast quantity of, you know, two and a half billion people.

Jared Taylor:                     All right. Well then tell that to all the people who consider themselves Asian-Americans. As you know-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I would.

Jared Taylor:                     On campuses today, there are Asian organizations.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yes.

Jared Taylor:                     There can be sub-Asian organizations as well, but more and more people in the United States, who might have origins in China [crosstalk 00:31:30]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 What does an Iranian have in common with a-

Jared Taylor:                     Look.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Japanese person in…

Jared Taylor:                     Well-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So this…

Jared Taylor:                     Look.

Fareed Zakaria:                 It just points to the arbitrariness of these-

Jared Taylor:                     You know, again, you’re making artificial distinctions here. When people talk about Asian, generally they mean East Asians. And to say, okay, are Iranian Asians? Are Lebanese Asians? You know, all of this stuff is peripheral and completely inessential.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Let me ask you about Trump.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you think his election has been a moment for white nationalism, white advocacy, however you would want to characterize your movement?

Jared Taylor:                     It’s certainly the case that he was supported by people with a racial consciousness, who are white. And I think it’s primarily because his policies would have resulted in a slowing down of the dispossession of whites, unquestionably. Now, I never thought that he is a white man who thinks in racial terms at all. I don’t think he cares [crosstalk 00:32:30]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Really? So then why do you think he’s doing it?

Jared Taylor:                     Why? Because he has sort of an instinctive sense of American civic nationalism. I think he understands that there are some people who don’t assimilate as easily, in the United States, as others. I think he’s recognized that Muslims, for example-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So then isn’t that a white… Isn’t that being a conscious white nationalist though?

Jared Taylor:                     No, not at all. Unconscious?

Fareed Zakaria:                 No, a conscious white…

Jared Taylor:                     Not at all.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I mean, if he believes that, isn’t that part of… A core element of your belief is that non-whites can’t really become proper Americans, and if Trump-

Jared Taylor:                     [crosstalk 00:33:02]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Sort of instinctively understands that, what I’m trying to understand, isn’t he in a sense then fulfilling the agenda you’re hoping he would fulfill?

Jared Taylor:                     Those are two entirely different things. If he recognizes that Asians don’t assimilate very well in the United States, and decides… I’m sorry. If he recognizes that Muslims do not assimilate very well in the United States, and decides that fewer Muslims should come, that has nothing to do with any kind of white racial consciousness.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, but if he did it about Asians, would that-

Jared Taylor:                     I beg your pardon.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But if he felt that way about Asians, or Hispanics?

Jared Taylor:                     He clearly doesn’t, does he? He clearly doesn’t feel that way about Asians. I’ve never heard him say anything at all about limiting Asian immigration. In fact, just in his latest State of the Union speech, he said, “More immigration than ever. More legal immigration.” And of course-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So-

Jared Taylor:                     Let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     Legal immigration is overwhelmingly non-white. If he approves that, he certainly doesn’t care about whites being reduced to a minority. And I think he genuinely does not care.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So, are you disappointed in him?

Jared Taylor:                     I didn’t expect much better, but yes, in that respect, I am disappointed. But as I say, I never thought that he had any kind of real racial consciousness.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Interesting.

Jared Taylor:                     He never gave any hints that he did.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well I just heard a couple of your speeches from a year and a half ago, where you seem much more hopeful.

Jared Taylor:                     Well I was hopeful that he would at least stick to his policies. His policies had to do with abrogating the executive amnesties that Barack Obama had implemented, in which people who had been brought to the United States as young people, illegal immigrants, would have their amnesties revoked. He also said he was going to build a wall. When he was campaigning he said he was going to try to send every illegal immigrant home. If he’d kept those campaign promises, I don’t care whether he has a racial consciousness or not, but he is still reducing the process of my people being reduced to a minority. And that I would support.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you think you’ve already lost the war? I mean, look at the United States now, you know, as you point out, the demographics, which can’t be reversed, even if your policies are accepted, would suggest that whites, however you define it, would be a minority by 2040, 2050. If you look at places like Sweden, they are now 25 percent foreign born.

Jared Taylor:                     Yeah, that’s true.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Canada is 25 percent foreign born.

Jared Taylor:                     Correct.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Haven’t you already lost?

Jared Taylor:                     Perhaps, but I feel I have a duty. I have a duty to my ancestors, and to my descendants, to try to preserve our people. And I don’t roll the dice and say, “What are my chances of success?” What I do depends on my conception of what is right, and what I owe my culture, my heritage, and my extended family, which is the European people. And even if it’s hopeless in the United States, and I don’t think it is, it’s not hopeless in Europe. And we should be supporting the efforts of the Poles-

Fareed Zakaria:                 Why isn’t it-

Jared Taylor:                     Let me finish please.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yeah, yeah.

Jared Taylor:                     We should support the efforts of the Poles, and the Hungarians, the Estonians, the Latvians to preserve their nations as European nations. And I ask you, what is wrong when they wish to remain Estonian, or Polish, or Hungarian? Why is that possibly wrong?

Fareed Zakaria:                 So I’m wondering why you don’t think you’ve lost already. About 40 percent of the country is already non-white.

Jared Taylor:                     [crosstalk 00:36:19]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 How can you have a white nation when you already have 40 percent of the country being non-white?

Jared Taylor:                     I’ve never talked about turning the entire United States into a white nation. I think that would be immoral. These people are here. They came here legally, for the most part. I’m not talking at all about sending people away or throwing people out. This is an idea that you have put in my mouth. I’ve never spoken about that. I do think, however, that it is possible that somewhere on the North American continent, there will be an area, large or small, in which is indisputably the possession of white people, and will continue to be. That would be my goal. It may seem fanciful at this time, but-

Fareed Zakaria:                 No, I’m just trying to understand what does that mean when 40 percent of the country is non-white, and they’re reproducing at faster rates than whites.

Jared Taylor:                     It means that I’m not at all talking about the entire United States becoming white. I’m talking about simply a portion of it becoming white. [crosstalk 00:37:14]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 So almost a kind of secede…

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 That the whites would secede to a-

Jared Taylor:                     Perhaps. I don’t know how it would work in practical terms, but I can assure you that more and more white people agree with me all the time. They do not want to become a minority. People who grew up in the United States don’t want to grow old in an outpost of Mexico, or Vietnam. They want to live in the United States. And their conception of the United States, rightly or wrongly, is one that is infused with European values, and where European people live. And it is by no means wrong or immoral for them to desire that. And I hope that at some point in the future, there will be some place on this continent where white people can have their own destiny, and move forward without the unwanted involvement or interference of people unlike themselves. And again, I consider that to be a supremely moral and normal, natural desire.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Would secession mean maybe creating a new nation?

Jared Taylor:                     Perhaps. Perhaps. Ideally, yes. And again, my view of this would be a voluntary separation. I have always been in favor of voluntary movements. And if you look at the way white people behave ordinarily. They don’t normally want to be a minority. When the neighborhood becomes non-white, they move out. And is it only by accident that they move to places that are still white? That when the school becomes majority non-white, they take their children out and send them to a school that is more white. Now, they wouldn’t dare say that this is because they have a racial consciousness, and they may not even have a racial consciousness, but whites, in their daily lives, do not want to become a minority. And yet they would never dare say, “I don’t want the country to become a minority.” They’ve been bamboozled, and hypnotized, and intimidated into being unwilling to state their own preferences. And yet, as the process continues, more and more parts of the United States will places where they will not feel comfortable living. And they’re not allowed to object. In fact, they’re told, “Celebrate this, this is your future.”

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you have children?

Jared Taylor:                     I have children.

Fareed Zakaria:                 If one of your children married a Hispanic, what would you say?

Jared Taylor:                     That would be her choice. I would oppose it, but that would be her choice.

Fareed Zakaria:                 You would oppose it-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes I would.

Fareed Zakaria:                 In the sense that you would… Would you attend the wedding?

Jared Taylor:                     Well, it depends on the Hispanic. If this were a European, a Spaniard, I wouldn’t… well, it depends on the individual of course, yeah.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But it doesn’t… You just-

Jared Taylor:                     No one is good enough for my daughters anyway.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But it’s not dependent on the individual, you just made it clear.

Jared Taylor:                     Well-

Fareed Zakaria:                 It would depend on their racial categorization.

Jared Taylor:                     No, of course it depends on the individual. This could be some absolute lily white Spaniard, who was a lout and a wretch, and I would disapprove. But, yes, I hope that my children will marry white people. I want my grandchildren to look like my grandparents. And there are many Jews, or blacks, or Asians who feel exactly the same way. It’s only when whites express that preference, that they’re somehow bigoted.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So let present an alternative view of what might happen, and I wonder what you think. Which is, just as people thought that these distinctions between Protestants and Catholics, between Irish and English, between Italian and Northern Europeans were deep and that these populations could never mix together. And that they ended up mixing together, and so much so that you now regard them as all indistinguishably white. So we may be entering a future in the United States where we will have more and more mixing, more and more intermarriage, call it what you will. And that these populations will find a way of getting on, and enriching the culture, and creating a new culture, which will be different, which will be deeply influenced by white culture, but also influenced by other sources. Just as American culture already is, by the way, if you, well you know, think about jazz music or something. And that that is the future that we’re going toward. Which is not one where whites are replaced, but where there is a kind of admixture, and that mixture creates vitality and diversity. What’s wrong with that vision?

Jared Taylor:                     I would certainly oppose it, because, as you pointed out, you’re talking about changing the nation my ancestors built. And these changes are being wrought by people who did not build my country, who have come from the outside with different ideas. Why would I approve of that? But at the same time… Let me finish. Let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well, a lot of blacks ancestors did build this country.

Jared Taylor:                     Well, they certainly provided labor, but they did it under the direction of whites. Now, you’re talking about people coming to this country from different cultures, different religions, different races. The future that you predict, or that you propose in the United States means the disappearance of my people. Why should I possibly? How could I [crosstalk 00:41:53]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m saying it’s already happened.

Jared Taylor:                     It’s not happened. There are still plenty of white people with a consciousness that they do have a past, and they deserve a future. Not to be simply melted away in this multiracial mishmash that they did not choose. You know, the American people were never told, never asked, “Would you like to become a minority?” No. This was foisted upon them.

Fareed Zakaria:                 The American people aren’t the minority.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes, the white people. Of course. All right. We will talk about white people. Up until, of course, 1965, we had an immigration policy that was designed to keep the country white. There was nothing wrong-

Fareed Zakaria:                 From the 20’s, not forever. Before that it was whoever could come in.

Jared Taylor:                     Absolutely not. Don’t you realize, the very first naturalization law, 1790, passed by the first congress, reserved naturalization to “free, white persons of good character.” The founding fathers has an explicitly white and European vision for this country. If we had maintained faithful to that, then the place would be entirely different from what it is now.

Fareed Zakaria:                 They believed-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 In slavery, should we have maintained that?

Jared Taylor:                     No, slavery was a terrible mistake.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Why not? Well if they… If you’re extolling their views-

Jared Taylor:                     I mean… Well… Are we… Now-

Fareed Zakaria:                 You can’t have it both ways.

Jared Taylor:                     Of course I can have it both ways. You yourself were just signing the praises of Jefferson, because of this foolish observation about all men being created equal. He owned slaves too.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m well aware of that.

Jared Taylor:                     Yeah, so if he’s a slave owner, we have to throw out all of his opinions too. Of course we can have it both ways. We can admire the things they got right, and deplore the things they got wrong.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And you decide what they got right and what they got wrong?

Jared Taylor:                     So do you. So do you. Everyone does.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Let me ask you, a couple thoughts I had about public policy now. I’m trying to just, kind of, try to understand what you make of some of these, you know, these things that have happened in the past. So I’m going to read you a few quotes.

Jared Taylor:                     Now these are quotes from me?

Fareed Zakaria:                 No. ‘I am a man of European ancestry. That blood runs in my veins. It is the same that runs through English and Nordic men. I am a descendant of one of the original colonists of Virginia. Black people are racially aware, but white people don’t always think about race in their daily lives. We need to and we have to.’ All find these are things you could have said, right?

Jared Taylor:                     I might have phrased things differently, but yes, white people did not have a racial consciousness, yeah. Non-whites do.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So this is from Dylann Roof and from John Earnest.

Jared Taylor:                     I was sure it was going to be some-

Fareed Zakaria:                 The first being the Charleston, and the second the Santiago Synagogue.

Jared Taylor:                     I was sure it was going to be someone like that.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So I’m not trying to trip you up.

Jared Taylor:                     Of course you are.

Fareed Zakaria:                 What I’m asking is, do they represent part of the same movement that you do?

Jared Taylor:                     I have absolutely… No, certainly not my movement. My movement, to the extent that I have one, is explicitly against any kind of violence o illegality. No.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But they believe in the same things. Would that be fair?

Jared Taylor:                     What you’re suggesting is that my beliefs lead to violence.

Fareed Zakaria:                 No I’m not. I’m asking-

Jared Taylor:                     Oh sure you are. Sure you are.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m asking-

Jared Taylor:                     What… Now what are you asking me?

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do they share the same beliefs that you do? Do they have the same world view?

Jared Taylor:                     I find little to object to in that sentence. Now, I’m sure we could find other sentences written by Dylann Roof that I would object to. I’m sure we could find sentences written by communists, or anarchists, or monarchists that you would agree with.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But I think… Let me make an analogy.

Jared Taylor:                     Sure.

Fareed Zakaria:                 A lot of people argue that a certain kind of Islamic radicalism fundamentalism militancy of thought has a tendency to morph or encourage violence because it paints the other as being threatening, demonizes, etc. So in the same way, is it fair to say that some of the kind of things that you talk about could encourage people to regard non-whites as an enemy that needs to be combated? And, of course, while you would never advocate violence, those views can give solace to people who have that more violent tendency.

Jared Taylor:                     So, of course, I was right, you’re suggesting that my views can lead to violence. That was precisely the point of this quotation that you read by Dylann Roof. So…

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you believe militant Islamic preachers who preach Islamic fundamentalism, and who argue that non-Muslims are heretics. In a sense, lay a groundwork, which allows somebody to go out and say, “Well if they’re heretics, and they need to be gotten rid of. I’ll get rid of them.”

Jared Taylor:                     It doesn’t take-

Fareed Zakaria:                 It’s the same kind of thing, isn’t it?

Jared Taylor:                     It doesn’t take fanatic clerics, that’s right in the Koran. The Koran is very explicit about eliminating heretics [crosstalk 00:46:28].

Fareed Zakaria:                 Well so… What I’m saying, so if you believe… What I’m asking is, can extreme thoughts lay the groundwork for violent action, even if the person advocating the extreme thoughts is himself not violent?

Jared Taylor:                     First of all, my thoughts are not extreme. My thoughts would have been shared by practically every living white person, up until about 50 or 60 years ago. There’s nothing the least bit extreme about them. They were absolutely taken for granted. Americans assumed that this was a European country and always would be. So there is nothing extreme about my views. Furthermore, any idea in the mind of a violent, murderous fool can become dangerous. Let’s imagine that you think that global warming is a terrible threat to our species, and you talk about this a lot. And you find out that someone who has listened to your words has gone to the ExxonMobil building and shot up the executive floor. Does that mean you were wrong? Does that mean you should stop-

Fareed Zakaria:                 I don’t think it’s quite the same. Let me try to explain again what I’m saying, which is that when you have an ideology that says that there are other people out there-

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Who are threatening your life, your existence, your culture. When you create another, you know, other out there, who is dangerous, and you paint that person or that group in threatening terms, whether you are an Islamic preacher saying that about non-Muslims, or a white nationalist saying that about non-whites. I’m just wondering, isn’t it fair to say that that can create a climate in white people who are more violent-minded will go out and, in a sense, act on those views in a violent way? In a way that you would never have done yourself?

Jared Taylor:                     Any idea, if taken in some extreme way, can be misused. The idea of creating an other, what about all the people who are fulminating against the one percent. That’s creating an other. That’s creating a group that some people might wish to kill, and perhaps some people will kill them. Furthermore, when we constantly talk about unearned white privilege, when we talk about unconscious and perpetual white racism, that creates an other. And I’m convinced that that contributes to the hugely lopsided black-on-white violent crime rates in the United States a day. There are many conversations, in this country, that talk about otherness. Otherness that almost always paints white male heterosexuals as somehow demons. And if that starts leading to attacks on whites, well then you start saying that oh, no, no, all those ideas were wrong. Society is full of divisions. There are people who disagree about one thing, and disagree about another. No, I do not for a moment accept that my ideas, which were absolutely mainstream for most of American history, can in any way be accused of leading to criminality.

Fareed Zakaria:                 What do you think of the Alt-Right movement?

Jared Taylor:                     I don’t know what it means.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Do you… When people talk about the Alt-Right, or Breitbart, or these things like that, do you regard them as sort of fellow travelers, comrades in arms. I’m just trying to understand.

Jared Taylor:                     Again, I don’t know what the Alt-Right movement really is. Breitbart is a website. But I don’t think Breitbart, in any way, expresses a white racial consciousness.

Fareed Zakaria:                 So who does?

Jared Taylor:                     Who does? Oh, American Renaissance does.

Fareed Zakaria:                 That’s-

Jared Taylor:                     And the people that write for us, the people that read us. And I can assure you, more and more people throughout the United States. We have more supporters, more contributors, more creators-

Fareed Zakaria:                 And yet you say Breitbart isn’t, and Donald Trump isn’t. So I’m wondering where is your support? You seem to again be having it both ways. You’re either disassociating yourself from everybody else, and then you’re saying but in fact the majority of the people still agree with you. If they do-

Jared Taylor:                     Not the majority. I’ve never said the majority. There are people who write for Breitbart who may agree. Some of the people who write articles for Breitbart, they seem to have an intelligent understanding of race, but very seldom, I don’t think ever, on Breitbart, would anyone talk about what I consider to be the two fundamental aspects of racial consciousness.

Fareed Zakaria:                 That’s-

Jared Taylor:                     Which is, first of all, the idea that we deserve to remain a majority, in some territory of our own. You’ll never hear that idea on Breitbart. Nor would Breitbart talk about racial difference, and intelligence, or personality. Those are two important things that have to be discussed if we’re going to get a sensible handle on racial problems in the United States. I’ve never heard Breitbart talk about that. Never heard Donald Trump talk about that. And I certainly never expect Donald Trump to talk about that.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Why did you do a robocall for him, if… In the 2016 election?

Jared Taylor:                     As I explained, if he had kept his campaign promises, he would have slowed down the process of reducing whites to a minority.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Race and IQ, I just want to understand again, you believe that whites are superior in terms of intelligence to all races other than North Asians, or just blacks?

Jared Taylor:                     Oh, the evidence seems to suggest that the smartest people in the world are Ashkenazi Jews, then East Asian, then Whites. Then Hispanics are a very heterogeneous population, and I don’t know where Arabs all fit in in various aspects. But then black Africans and Australian Aborigines come up near the bottom. That’s the way the data shake themselves up.

Fareed Zakaria:                 What would you do with that data?

Jared Taylor:                     Well-

Fareed Zakaria:                 In other words, what does it mean to you? Why is race and IQ so important?

Jared Taylor:                     It’s important because when blacks in particular, but also when Asians don’t do as well in school, or don’t get the same kind of incomes in the United States, it’s always blamed on whites. We are the bad guys. There must be what, 13,000, 15,000  school districts in the United States. In every one of them Asians score better than whites. Whites score better than Hispanics. Hispanics score slightly better than blacks. People are wringing their head trying to figure this out. All of this wasted effort can be explained in very simple terms, groups are not the same. Furthermore, [crosstalk 00:52:51]-

Fareed Zakaria:                 But you know that the highest income-

Jared Taylor:                     Let me finish.

Fareed Zakaria:                 No, let me.

Jared Taylor:                     All right.

Fareed Zakaria:                 The highest income by, you know, if you want to make these distinctions in America-

Jared Taylor:                     Indians.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Is Indian-Americans.

Jared Taylor:                     Exactly. Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Does that mean I’m smarter than you? I don’t think so.

Jared Taylor:                     You may be. You may be. You have a PhD from Harvard, you must be a smart guy.

Fareed Zakaria:                 But really, do you want to base your understanding of the world on the basis of these rather nebulous categories, races and then these average IQ scores, which are, you know, must be related to so many other things like family background, income, maybe the fact that, you know, Europeans have been rich for so much longer. Surely you don’t want to…

Jared Taylor:                     Mr. Zakaria.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I’m just wondering, it’s a very dark world view to believe-

Jared Taylor:                     It’s not.

Fareed Zakaria:                 That there’s this hierarchy of races, with, you know, IQ scores, and you’re going to sort the world on the basis of that.

Jared Taylor:                     I don’t plan to sort the world at all. I want people, wherever they are, to be the best possible people they can be, whether they’re Asians, or Africans, or Indians. And the only way that that can happen, I believe, is that if people are free to pursue their own destiny, in the name of their own culture. I want the people of Africa to make Africa the best possible continent they can for Africans. And Africans, I believe will be happiest not living in a society like ours, in which they are constantly being told, “White people are oppressing you. White people are out to get you.” They need to live in societies where their government, their media, their infrastructure reflects their own people. I think that is how they will be happiest. No, my vision is not dark at all. Mine is a bright vision in which every group can pursue its own identity, without interference, without the fear of exploitation, or discrimination, or jockeying for position. All of this is much more likely, and much happier when people are living in coherent societies that reflect their ancestors and their own culture.

Fareed Zakaria:                 You talk about Africans. There are so many different divisions within this vast continent. 45 different countries.

Jared Taylor:                     Indeed.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I just… I think that you place so much weight on the fact that a certain group of people’s ancestors spent a lot more time in the sun than another group, and so their skin is darker. It just feels like such an arbitrary distinction.

Jared Taylor:                     Do you really think that blacks and whites are basically identical twins separated at birth? That they are really indistinguishable and replaceable? In other words, if the United States had been populated by people from Senegal that it would have turned out exactly the same way? Or would have been just as wealthy, just as well off? Do you really believe that? How can you?

Fareed Zakaria:                 I don’t believe that, but I do believe that most countries have a lot more intermingling of people than we realize. That much of that intermingling happened a long time ago among groups that people regarded as very different. Protestants, Catholics. Irish, English. Jews, Christians. And that we’ve now happily forgotten it, and we lumped them all together, and now the next phase will be-

Jared Taylor:                     Look. Look.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Yes, blacks and whites. Hispanics and whites.

Jared Taylor:                     Yes.

Fareed Zakaria:                 Asians and whites.

Jared Taylor:                     And white people disappear.

Fareed Zakaria:                 And we’ll move on.

Jared Taylor:                     White people disappear. Whereas there is a vast reservoir of Asians, there’s a vast reservoir of Africans, there’s a vast reservoir of Arabs, but this tiny population on the face of the earth. Maybe ten percent of the human population. We are the only ones who get swamped and disappeared. That is your vision for white people. Yes it is. Like it or not.

Fareed Zakaria:                 I don’t think in terms of yours and mine. I think, in my view we’re all God’s children. Anyway, this was a pleasure.

Jared Taylor:                     All right. Thank you so much.