Angry White Men (Part I)
Jan. 22, 2003
ANNOUNCER: Now, DONAHUE.
Tonight: the American dream. Over a million people cross U.S. borders every year in search of it. But as the unemployment numbers creep up, does a foreign work force leave American labor in the cold?
Plus-immigration in the age of terrorism. Are tougher restrictions doing the job or is America leaving itself wide open to a terrorist attack? DONAHUE goes inside the issue, starting right now.
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening and welcome to DONAHUE, live from New York City. Tonight, we continue our debate with angry white men. And they appear to be everywhere, may I say.
We’re looking at how immigrants are impacting America from concerns about terrorism to lost jobs. Should foreigners be kept out?
America has been known as the land of opportunity, opening its borders when other nations shut theirs. Some feel we’ve gone too far. There are over 30 million immigrants living now in the United States.
I’m with the Jared Taylor. He’s the editor of “American Renaissance,” a publication dealing with race and immigration.
You think Latinos are a threat. What’s the threat?
JARED TAYLOR, ED., AMERICAN RENAISSANCE: The threat, they articulate quite clearly in what they describe, in fact, as reconquista — reconquering the southwest part of the United States.
DONAHUE: They do say that?
TAYLOR: Oh, of course they say that.
Have you never heard of the movement? The Mexican officials themselves are proud of the fact that as they say, street by street, town by town, Mexico is taking back the southwestern part of the United States.
DONAHUE: You don’t want any more Mexicans to come to the United States?
TAYLOR: No, I think 15 million is enough. Don’t you? Fifteen million, for heaven’s sake?
DONAHUE: Keep them out. You’re a Mexican, you’re out of here.
TAYLOR: And many of them are coming despite our laws. They cross our borders illegally. They then-some of them go on welfare. They cause all sort of problem in terms of bilingual education, interpreters in courtroom, the Hispanic violent crime rate is about three times the white crime rate.
Why should we want these people here?
DONAHUE: Do you think they’re taking our job as well, do you?
TAYLOR: Oh, I think certainly they take job from people with lower skills. And that would primarily be black people. The jobs issue, I think, are far less important. Far less important than the question of national identity.
You probably haven’t heard of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), have you?
DONAHUE: Probably haven’t.
TAYLOR: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE). It has chapters in universities all across the country, high schools as well. And their plan is to carve out what they call “The Bronze Continent.” It’s called Aztlan, from which all whites will be kicked out and it will be a sort of northern chunk of Mexico. You don’t call that a threat?
DONAHUE: You know, J. Edgar Hoover said there was a Communist under every bed-or seemed to be imply that. Big threat. Now there’s a Mexican under every bed.
Do you have any idea the contributions that Latino have made to the United States? Incidentally, we looked this up. Did you know that there are more Medal of Honor winner are Latino than any other ethnic group?
TAYLOR: That would surprise me.
More Latinos than white? I would be very surprised.
DONAHUE: Governor Richardson of New Mexico.
DONAHUE: Is a Latino ...
TAYLOR: You would not know to look at him, would you?
DONAHUE: His mother’s name was Lopez.
DONAHUE: Are you sorry he came? And how do you feel by the way, of Governor Jeb Bush’s marriage. He’s married to a woman of Mexican origin.
TAYLOR: And you know, his nephew says, “We have to defend our race.” And he’s not talking that his father’s side of the family. He’s talking about Hispanics.
When he goes on and campaigns for his uncle, he talks about we need people who will defend our race. The organization, one of the most important ...
DONAHUE: Defend his race against the bigotry that’s being promoted by among other people, “American Renaissance” magazine.
TAYLOR: Just wanting to be left alone is bigotry? Why is that?
DONAHUE: Abe Foxman called your Renaissance magazine-”American Renaissance,” a white supremacist magazine. That’s true, isn’t it?
TAYLOR: He’s wrong. He’s absolutely wrong.
A supremacist presumably wants to rule over others. My point is simply, people prefer the company of people like themselves.
Please just leave us alone. Imagine if hundreds of thousands of white Americans were pouring across the border into Mexico, insisting on instruction in English, celebrating the Fourth of July rather than Cinco de Mayo, insisting on ballot papers in English?
Do you think the Mexicans could be tricked into that that was cultural enrichment? Never. They would recognize an invasion when they saw it. And so should we.
DONAHUE: But I think we can benefit from more interchange and more commerce with this culture.
TAYLOR: How many million do you want?
DONAHUE: I want to show you a quote that you made-a quote from a speech that you made not long ago. It was 1966. You spoke at the Jefferson Davis ...
DONAHUE: 1996, sorry. This is the Jefferson Davis monument, right where you belong. Fairfield, Kentucky.
“Does America need Haitians, Mexicans and Cambodians and Guatemalans by the millions? Where these people settled, be it Miami, South Central Los Angeles, or Brownsville, Texas, these places cease to be parts of the United States and become parts of the Third World.”
TAYLOR: Never a truer word was said.
DONAHUE: You believe this? They’re a threat to our jobs. They’re a threat to our culture? I mean, how frightened are you going to be?
TAYLOR: Tell me this, Mr. Donahue. Can you name a single majority nonwhite neighborhood you would like to live in? A majority Mexican-a majority Mexican neighborhood would you like to live in?
Or can you name a single majority black or Hispanic school you would like your children to go to? Please. Just one. Just one.
DONAHUE: You have this notion. If you’re here to say that every neighborhood in which people of color live go to seed, you cannot support that assertion.
TAYLOR: Then name one would you like to live in. Just one. Just one.
DONAHUE: I want to know more about this threat. Jobs especially, you think.
TAYLOR: No, not especially job. Job are, I think, are relatively a minor matter. The fact is, most white Americans, whether they admit it or not, they believe what I believe. And that is why, when the school district, when the neighborhood, when the church, all of that turns Mexican or Haitian or Guatamalan, they clear out.
DONAHUE: They do.
TAYLOR: And where do they go? They go to neighborhoods that are still majority white. And I’m telling you, it’s natural, normal and healthy for them to do that.
Every other group takes that for granted. They prefer to be with people who are like themselves. There’s nothing wrong with that.
DONAHUE: At the Jefferson Davis monument, your speech: “Ladies and gentlemen,” you said grandly, “we’re gather here today to celebrate the memory of these brave men who gave their lives for their country-for the Confederate States of America. Why do we still remember them and honor them more than 130 years after the gun fell silent? Why does the Confederate soldier and what he stood for inspire us?” The confederate soldier stood for slavery. Does that inspire you?
TAYLOR: One household in six owned slaves in the Confederacy. A small minority.
The people who fought for Robert E. Lee were not fighting for slavery. They were fighting for independence, just the way their ancestors fought for independence from England.
DONAHUE: “I’m proud to be a Southerner. I’m proud of the men who wore the gray. I’m proud of my heritage, proud of my race and proud of my people.” You’re not a white supremacist?
TAYLOR: No, no, no. You can be proud of your family without having any sense of superiority?
DONAHUE: So, because only a few of them owned slaves, then that’s why you can actually sit here and suggest that the war that they fought was not in support of slavery?
TAYLOR: They fought for independence. They fought for it just as, as I say, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and those people, they likewise fought for independence.
Do you know, the great seal of the Confederacy, has an image of George Washington on it, because they felt they were precisely in the same tradition.
DONAHUE: All right.
TAYLOR: They were rebelling against taxation from a distant power.
DONAHUE: Donald (ph) from Florida. Glad you waited. Hi.
CALLER: How are you doing?
CALLER: What I have to say is I’ve been in the service business, the construction business for the last 25 years. I’ve watched the Mexicans come in and basically cutthroat the prices on the work, do the work for a fraction of what the American would do it and what it should be done for.
They basically have taken over at least 50 to 60 percent of the work force that’s out there for the working construction labor type man because they will do the work for next to nothing.
DONAHUE: Right. And who do you blame for that?
CALLER: I blame the U.S. for letting them come over here.
DONAHUE: What about the Caucasian construction company owner?
CALLER: Yes. They’ve come in and just taken over. And they leave the working man. You teach one of them and the rest of them, they work for nothing.
DONAHUE: Here’s from your fundraising letter.
DONAHUE: Well, you know, you can’t back up from this.
TAYLOR: I haven’t backed off a single thing you’ve said. No truer words said.
DONAHUE: “More and more white are beginning to realize what is at stake. You’re asking for money.
Over the year, as a guest on hundreds of radio call in programs.”
DONAHUE: Boy, those radio programs cannot wait to put you on.
“I have experienced firsthand a reawakening of white racial consciousness. Whites are beginning to see that our people, our children our nation and our way of life is a threat.”
DONAHUE: You’re in a losing battle here.
Incidentally, as you may know, by 2050, only 53 percent of us will be Caucasian.
TAYLOR: Do you think that’s a good thing?
DONAHUE: Sure. I think we’re all God’s children. And I think-I don’t think first of all, there’s anything we can do about it. You have too many Spanish speaking, brown-skinned people south of our border. You’re not going to be able to stand up and build a fence and say No, you can’t come here. Welcome them. Look what they’ve contributed to our culture already. We’ve got astronauts in space. All kinds of people all kinds of people of Latino heritage have come here and realized the American dream, and you’re up here saying your scared of it.
TAYLOR: If it is good for the majority of the population, whites in America to be reduce for a minority, why isn’t it good for Mexicans, for Nigerians, for Japanese. Why shouldn’t they all be reduce to do minorities by immigrants.
DONAHUE: What’s good for us is good for them. I think that the Mexican-the state of Mexico could be enriched by a more diverse population. All of us could be.
TAYLOR: Do you think they would stand for it?
DONAHUE: That’s why we have such a great city here called New York City. Where everybody gets along. We’ll be back-listen I want to show you this.
Before we go to break, take look at what a famous American said about immigrants.
This a quote from a famous American, you are going to tell me who said this. “They will soon outnumber us, that all the advantages we have will not in my opinion be able to preserve our language and even our government will become precarious.” Who said that?
TAYLOR: Probably one of the founding fathers.
DONAHUE: The answer when we come back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Later on DONAHUE, should America continue to allow foreigners in or should we put our borders on lock-down. Donahue takes a look at immigrants and the threat of terrorism. We’ll be right back.
DONAHUE: Welcome back. That quote shown here, Ben Franklin talking about German immigrants in 1753. That is, this is apparently something that will come back and haunt us and haunt us. We’re just afraid of other people. My goodness. The brown people are coming after us. We’re talking about whether America should close its borders to foreigners.
Joining us is Jose Pertierra who is with the American Immigration Lawyers Association. And radio talk show host Steve Malzberg.
Steve Malzberg, do you share what you’ve just heard here from Mr. Taylor?
STEVE MALZBERG, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No, not much of it at all. My problem is that people who are here illegally. And I’ve got to tell you, one of the defenses I come up against all the time from people who say “let them in, they’re OK,” is that they do jobs for this economy that nobody else will do.
Could you imagine a conservative, if I sat here said, Phil, we have to let these illegal stay here. They clean the toilet. Who will clean them? You would say racist. But the liberals say let them in because they’ll clean the toilets. That’s a terrible thing to say.
DONAHUE: Anglo’s were to get down and harvest our grapes, our lettuce, our-they do a job?
MALZBERG: What I am saying-job will get done?
DONAHUE: The jobs will get done? Tell that to the Grower Association.
MALZBERG: The fact of the matter is illegals don’t belong here because they’re breaking the law.
DONAHUE: Which is probably what they said to your ancestors.
MALZBERG: No, no. My ancestors came here legally.
DONAHUE: Did they?
MALZBERG: Yes they did.
DONAHUE: Incidentally if we really think of this of our country. We should get out of here, you know that’s not true. This was not an white nation. Why shouldn’t the Native-American stand up and say I want all whites out of here. This is my place.
MALZBERG: They have gotten reparations of sort.
Mr. Pertierra, you’re American Immigration Lawyers Association.
You’ve listened in on this and please share your wisdom with this.
JOSE PETIERRA, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: Phil, the basic premise that he advances, that this country is a white country, is a flawed premise. This country has never been white. It was never founded by simply white people.
It’s always been a multicolored tapestry. It was founded by yellow people, brown people, black people, all kinds of colored people. It hasn’t been a white country and it will never be a white country. If anything, if we all keep sleeping with each other, we’re probably going to end up all the same color.
DONAHUE: That’s a fact. Won’t that be a great hallelujah day? Now—then they’ll have to figure out some other reason to hate you. To be afraid of you.
MALZBERG: The problem isn’t the color of the people coming here. The problem is that once they come here, they’ve got to want to be Americans. Americans first. Not Mexicans or Israelis or Irish. American.
DONAHUE: They don’t want to be American? Who told you that.
MALZBERG: I didn’t say-I said the problem is that people who come here have to want to be Americans. Not want to just take their culture and bring it here and not speak English and not do what we do.
DONAHUE: This young woman wanted to ask.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to say that according to what you are saying, people, you choose-you clues to live in a white neighborhood. Well, I agree. I choose to live in a white neighborhood. That doesn’t mean I don’t want people to come from other countries and to be here. I mean, our nation is about other countries.
TAYLOR: Where do you want them to live? Not in your neighborhood?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I choose live in a predominantly white neighborhood. But doesn’t mean that I don’t think they have a place down the street or in a different area.
When whites become the minority, how many such neighborhoods will be left?
DONAHUE: But your question highlights our racism more than it suggests they should not be here.
TAYLOR: If they were not here, if the United States were a homogeneous country, we wouldn’t have this affirmative action debate we are talking about. We wouldn’t have this bilingual education problem. We would have never had a race riot.
DONAHUE: And we would be the lesser for it, too.
(CROSSTALK) PETIERRA: There are many things that have been built by the immigrants of the United States. It’s not simply affirmative action. I mean that’s the basic flaw in your argument. You don’t examine history the way it really is.
DONAHUE: We’ll continue this conversation in a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Down in out in America. Is U.S. immigration policy partly the blame for increasing unemployment lines.
DONAHUE continues the debate when we return.
DONAHUE: We’re back talking about keeping foreigners out of the country. Clay from Ohio. We’re glad you waited. Hi, Clay.
CALLER: Yes, my point, your last caller, the construction business owner, was talking about how the Mexicans are taking jobs, the labor jobs. I’m in the construction business myself. And if you want the job, you got to do the dirty work yourself. You can’t have anybody else doing it.
DONAHUE: I don’t know what your point is. You can’t do it if-if you’re hiring, you have to hire people to build a building, right?
CALLER: That’s correct. But I think he was saying that the Mexicans are coming in and taking the labor away. And my point is, I see a lot of people. They don’t want to do the dirty job.
DONAHUE: Mr. Malzberg reminds us that if you say that about people of color, we’d be called racist. Do you understand his point?
MALZBERG: Yes, it’s ridiculous. I mean, what he’s saying is only the Mexicans or the cheap labor will do the jobs that need to be done.
DONAHUE: But you have a number of Anglo contractors out there who will affirm that.
MALZBERG: Well, absolutely. But, Phil, the problem here is this country can’t afford to take care of its own people in many respects. That’s why we need limitations not people, only on Mexicans, but on people that come here illegally and get the benefit that they’re that U.S. citizens are entitled to.
DONAHUE: Certain categories of people is what you’re saying.
MALZBERG: No, I’m not. I said not only Mexicans. The aliens, illegal aliens.
DONAHUE: This young man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I come from Mexico. I crossed the Rio Grande 14 years ago. I have been working since then. I went to college. I graduated. I can tell you that we need each other. We don’t have to attack each other.
DONAHUE: Did you come here legally?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I came-not illegal. As an undocumented worker.
Not because I wanted to, because ...
(CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to use that term, there’s another term that you use.
(CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Very good. You won the semantic argument. Let the gentleman make his point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is focusing on xenophobic issues. We should focus on people like-people who are leaving like Enron. Who are really ...
DONAHUE: Very good.
MALZBERG: They’ll make their own justices.
DONAHUE: You know, America’s a better place because of the man is here.
MALZBERG: He came here breaking the law. Phil, if you say that and encourage law-breaking, you’re part of a big problem.
DONAHUE: I think that this is a lot more complex than either or. The fact is that he was lured across the Rio Grande because of the opportunity. Because a job lured him.
DONAHUE: We’ll be back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Does allowing foreigners to immigrate put our national security at risk? When DONAHUE returns, inside immigration and the threat of terrorism. We’ll be right back.
DONAHUE: More DONAHUE straight ahead. Is diversity dangerous? Are America’s open borders putting us at risk for another terror attack? Up next, a prominent Arab attorney takes on the angry white men over immigration.
DONAHUE: Welcome back to DONAHUE. The battle over our borders. My guests-Jared Taylor, Steve Malzberg.
Jose Pertierra is on the satellite. You’ve handled so many cases involving minorities, immigrants. You just saw this young-successful young man who-very honestly, it’s one of the chapters of his life. He comes here. He was 14. And he’s doing well. You see that a lot, I assume, in your work. Tell us what your clients are complaining about most.
PERTIERRA: Phil, I see it every day. People cross the border because there are jobs here that lure them to the United States. And the fact of the matter is, U.S. employers can’t find U.S. workers to fill those jobs. We’ve done cases for people through a process called labor certification ...
PERTIERRA: ... where the employer has to place an ad in the newspaper and offer prevailing wage, according to the Department of Labor standards ...
PERTIERRA: ... as much as $20-some an hour for construction.
PERTIERRA: And they get-you know, they get no takers and ...
DONAHUE: Let me just-let me just show you, Mr. Pertierra, and that is a very important point. I think it’s lost on some of the folks here, who believe that the Mexicans are coming in from everywhere. Take a look at the make-up ...
TAYLOR: Only from Mexico.
DONAHUE: ... of America in the past and in the future. According to the U.S. Census Bureau-this is interesting-in 1960, over 88 percent of America was white. That’s 43 years ago. By 2000, that number dropped to 75 percent. And the estimated projection by the year 2050, only 53 percent of us are white. We already know that the state of California has a minority Caucasian population.
TAYLOR: That’s right.
DONAHUE: Mr. Taylor, you’re in a losing battle here.
TAYLOR: Not necessarily.
DONAHUE: Why don’t you just say-take a Mexican to lunch. Have you ever done that?
(LAUGHTER) TAYLOR: Look, Phil ...
DONAHUE: Say hello to these people. This is a fabulous culture! They are familia. They love their children. They’re irreplaceable children of God!
TAYLOR: Well, if-if they ...
DONAHUE: Let them play with your grandchildren in the sandbox! We’re all going to be better off.
TAYLOR: Wait a minute. If they are such “familia” people, why is the illegitimacy rate among Hispanic Americans three times the white rate? Why is the venereal disease rate five to ten times the white rate?
DONAHUE: Oh, come on!
TAYLOR: Why is-oh, come on?
DONAHUE: Come on!
TAYLOR: Do these things not matter? Also ...
(CROSSTALK) TAYLOR: ... I would like to correct Mr. Pertierra’s view, his notion ...
DONAHUE: ... wanted to just respond directly to the point you made.
Please, Mr. Pertierra.
PERTIERRA: Phil, Mexicans wants want to be treated in the United States with the same respect and dignity that Americans are treated in Mexico.
TAYLOR: They’re not let in!
PERTIERRA: If you go to any of the major cities and resorts in Mexico, you will see many Americans who not only are simply visiting Mexico but are also living in Mexico ...
MALZBERG: Sir! They’re there legally, sir!
PERTIERRA: ... and are being treated very, very well.
MALZBERG: Sir, would you treat illegal Americans-would you treat illegal Americans with the same dignity ...
TAYLOR: Not a chance!
TAYLOR: ... in Mexico, or would they be jailed and thrown out?
(CROSSTALK) MALZBERG: I’d like to hear his answer!
PERTIERRA: The first thing that I would like to correct you on is people that are undocumented in this country do not like when people call them illegals.
TAYLOR: Well, that’s too, bad!
MALZBERG: They’re illegal! I don’t care what they like!
PERTIERRA: I think it says a lot about where you and your friend, Jared, are coming from in this debate when you insist on using a term that people find offensive ...
MALZBERG: That’s too bad!
PERTIERRA: ... to refer to them.
DONAHUE: Yes. Let me-let me get the ...
MALZBERG: Too bad for you, I think.
DONAHUE: There’s a young woman in the back row. I’ll get to you in one second, my friends. Yes, ma’am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I just want to say I’m first generation in this country. My mother comes from Lithuania, my father from Germany.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we always spoke English in the house when we visited because we were in America. Now, that was good. But on the other hand, I could have become multilingual ...
DONAHUE: Yes. And that’s better!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Polish, Lithuanian and German. And that would have been better.
DONAHUE: I agree with you.
Sir? I’m no longer discriminating against you. You wanted to get in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there should be some limitations on immigration ...
DONAHUE: You want to put that mike up just a little?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there should be some limitations on immigration, but I do think we have to take a look at who benefits from it. And you get a lot of young people who can’t make a living in the country where they live, so they come here. And when they come here, they work in delis and for contractors and they work for much less.
DONAHUE: Yes, they do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, they’re really exploited. But they’re trying to make a better life for themselves, and I think-I mean, my hat goes off to these people, especially the young people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I’ll say that-just to end it-my father came here legally, but I think if he had to come, he’d come by whatever means necessary, even if it was illegal, to get here from where he came from.
DONAHUE: How many-how many people can say that about their own ancestors? I agree with you.
Doris from Florida, you waited for us!
DONAHUE: You wanted to say?
CALLER: Oh, yes. If you are so liberal about letting all these people in, I suggest you go and live in Miami for one year.
TAYLOR: Good point. Good point.
CALLER: I’m going to tell you right now, they don’t want to be American. I went through Elian. I watched them burn the flag, burn my business out, OK? You could not drive down the street. They did not care that I paid taxes!
MALZBERG: Let me say there’s a Cuban-American community ...
CALLER: They didn’t care!
MALZBERG: ... in New Jersey, and they are very patriotic!
CALLER: They don’t want to be American ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I don’t-you know ...
CALLER: ... and they don’t care!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don’t know who she’s talking about.
CALLER: And it’s like a third world country down there! And America better wake up!
TAYLOR: That’s right!
DONAHUE: Here’s an e-mail that says, “If white culture can be threatened so easily by diversity, it’s not worth preserving.” And Henry from California ...
TAYLOR: Oh, that’s silly.
DONAHUE: ... writes, “Angry white men should not be angry with the undocumented worker but rather with the white contractor who hires them.” TAYLOR: Oh, I’ll tell you, I’m angry with American legislature and government that does not enforce our law, does not keep people out that should not be here.
DONAHUE: I want to thank you Jose, first of all, for joining us.
How easy it is to penetrate the U.S. border. Find out in an exclusive investigation, along with the front-along the front lines of America’s homeland security. “MSNBC REPORTS” tonight at 10:00. This is on the ground tonight. I’m pleased to recommend it to your attention.
And we’ll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow: From workplace promotions to college admissions, does Affirmative Action level the playing field? DONAHUE goes inside the hot-button debate tomorrow.
DONAHUE: We’re back, talking about the security now and immigration. After 9/11, are we safe, or should we close our borders to keep foreigners out? Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, concern over immigration has become a major issue. Is it time to cut off immigration for Arab nations? There are Americans who think so. And is the Justice Department correct by requiring Middle Eastern men visiting the United States to register with the government?
Mr. Mazlberg, I ask you. Do you think the government needs to do whatever it takes to make our country more secure?
DONAHUE: That’s your position.
MALZBERG: In the last 10 years, there have been 48 radical Islamists who have either perpetuated acts of terrorism in this country ...
MALZBERG: ... or who have aided and abetted in those acts of terrorism, half of them illegal. Three of the September 11 hijackers-illegal. John Lee Malvo-illegal.
DONAHUE: Would you ...
MALZBERG: Of course, the government has to take precautions and crack down.
MALZBERG: Of course!
DONAHUE: Would you exclude Arab citizens from entry to the United States?
MALZBERG: No. I would do background checks. But right now, I would close the borders everywhere to everybody. Let’s take, as Hillary loves to say, a deep breath-not in this respect she doesn’t, but take a deep breath, find out where these people-we have 11 million illegals in this country. Half of them are here on extended visas. We don’t know where they are! We don’t know who they are! We don’t know what they want to do. Isn’t that a problem, Phil?
DONAHUE: Joining us from San Diego is Civil Rights attorney Randall Hamud. Well, Mr. Hamud, sir, the government’s crackdown on Middle Eastern men-you’ll give us your thought-first of all, you do represent people in jail who you can’t even talk to. Is that a fair-is that an accurate thing to say?
RANDALL HAMUD, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: No, I have clients in jail, but I can talk to them. Initially, there was efforts to deter me from meeting with them. And in New York, I was thrown out of the prison one time in trying to meet with them. But now I’m able to meet and interact with my clients, yes.
DONAHUE: Are we holding any citizen from another nation without access to lawyers?
HAMUD: Well, we don’t know that because there are right now-of the 1,200 initially that the government arrested in September of 2001, there are a few hundred still remaining in secret custody whose names are not revealed, and we don’t really know whether they have counsel. We don’t know what their status is.
HAMUD: And that’s offensive to a democracy.
DONAHUE: As you-I don’t have to tell you, there are civil libertarians just outraged and ashamed of their own nation for behaving this way. You know, the people who pound their chest about the wonderful Constitution are the first people to bail, to fold. All men are created equal, unless we’re scared!
MALZBERG: Phil, the courts ...
DONAHUE: Mr. Hamud, tell us about your own situation, who you’re representing, your clientele and what’s going on here that should be corrected.
HAMUD: Well, the clients I represent now are basically Osama Owadowa (ph), who is the New York ...
DONAHUE: His name is Osama?
HAMUD: Osama Owadowa, yes. And he’ll probably ...
DONAHUE: Boy, that’s going to be a long day if your name is Osama.
HAMUD: Well, because he was named Osama, when he was in New York in September and October of 2001, he was beaten in prison by the guards. He was abused. We have filed a civil rights lawsuit ...
HAMUD: ... on his behalf because of the malfeasance of the prison guards. And he is an innocent player. He knew nothing of 911. He was simply a material witness who, while he lived in San Diego in the year 2000, had interaction with two of the identified hijackers who came to San Diego and lived here for a year in the year 2000 ...
HAMUD: ... under their own names. And the FBI could easily have found them in the year 2000, if they’d come here to look for them. But yet my client, as a casual acquaintance, has been paying a price for that casual acquaintanceship ever since.
HAMUD: Criminal charges were brought against him, but in April of 2002, Judge Sheer Shinlin (ph) in New York dismissed all the charges again him because of the constitutional violations that befell him in his treatment ...
HAMUD: ... after September 11 by the enforcement authorities.
DONAHUE: Right. So ...
HAMUD: So when you abuse the Constitution in times of emergency, you’re basically destroying the possibility of proper criminal processes, and you destroy the kind of nation that made us proud and the kind nation we were before September 11.
DONAHUE: You destroy the protections that all those young men and women fought and died for ...
DONAHUE: ... in past wars ...
DONAHUE: ... proudly, under the American flag!
Gerald from Michigan, you wanted to say? Gerald?
CALLER: Yes. This whole sealing the borders matter and immigration for me is a matter of the utmost national security. I cannot believe that after-by the way with, a friend of mine died in the first tower that was hit in New York on September 11. For me, it’s not about Mexicans or Lithuanians or Germans or any other ethnicity. It’s about the security of this great nation. And if you people, you liberals, can’t see that, then we are finished! We are done as a nation!
DONAHUE: Right. If we could see this, Gerald ...
DONAHUE: You’ve got support in the audience. Oh, I tell you what, these immigrants are coming!
TAYLOR: There’s a way we could avoid ...
DONAHUE: If I could see this, what would I realize? What would do I, if I could-if I, as a liberal, could somehow miraculously understand this, what is it that I would understand? And what would I do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You’d try to find who’s in this country illegally, find out what they’re up to, how they got here, make sure nobody else gets into this country illegally. I mean, that’s what we have to work on, Phil. We have to work on making sure that we limit this country to people who belong here!
HAMUD: That’s absurd.
DONAHUE: Mr. Hamud?
HAMUD: That’s absurd. You ...
DONAHUE: Why is it absurd?
HAMUD: Because what you’ve got to do-at least 11 million people are without documentation in the country. You don’t have time to chase around 11 million people. What you’ve got to do is concentrate on historically beneficial and effective law enforcement measures, such as surveillance, searching of clues, searching of identifiable suspects, instead of racially profiling and chasing a lot of rabbits while the bears are getting away.
MALZBERG: Who should we look at, blond-haired ...
HAMUD: You dilute your resources ...
MALZBERG: ... blue-eyed illegals in the country, sir?
HAMUD: ... looking at, quote, “illegals,” close quote.
DONAHUE: Hold on just a moment. Blond-haired, blue-eyed illegals?
What’s your point?
MALZBERG: My point is, who’s been involved in terror in this country and abroad?
DONAHUE: So let’s go after those Arabs, then.
MALZBERG: In killing Americans. It’s called good police work, Phil!
It’s good police work!
(CROSSTALK) HAMUD: ... because if you’re looking for people of color now, if you have any kind of sophisticated enemy whatsoever, the next crop of terrorists won’t look like ...
MALZBERG: I’ve heard that, and they haven’t done it yet!
HAMUD: ... your profile.
DONAHUE: Mr. Taylor wanted to say.
TAYLOR: There is a much more basic problem here. Until 1965, the United States had an immigration policy that was designed to keep the country majority white and exclusively black and white. If we ...
DONAHUE: Oh, those were the good old days, weren’t they!
TAYLOR: If we had maintained such a policy ...
TAYLOR: If we had maintained such a policy, there would be no large Muslim or Arab communities here, into which ...
DONAHUE: Oh, and how much better we’d be! Is that your point?
TAYLOR: We’d be much better off.
DONAHUE: How do you feel about interracial dating?
TAYLOR: I think that’s up to the individual. I don’t care for it myself. But if we did not have all of these communities in which terrorists can hide, it would be much, much easier for us to maintain ...
MALZBERG: But Phil, the good ...
TAYLOR: ... security.
MALZBERG: The good news for you is, and the people who think like you is, in cities like New York City and Los Angeles ...
MALZBERG: ... city workers are not allowed by law to say, Hey, I know of an illegal. A cop, a teacher, a city hospital worker cannot report illegal aliens!
DONAHUE: Diane ...
MALZBERG: You’re winning!
DONAHUE: Diane from Connecticut. You wanted to say?
DONAHUE: Hi. Go ahead.
CALLER: Yes. Of course, close the borders and profile these Muslims!
TAYLOR: Of course.
CALLER: They’re the enemy! They attacked oust 9/11. If they hate America so much, go back to your Saudi Arabia!
DONAHUE: What do you mean “they”?
CALLER: Wealthy dictators ...
DONAHUE: You’re saying “they.”
CALLER: ... loaded with oil money ...
DONAHUE: Who hates America?
CALLER: What are they doing here? They don’t assimilate, and they’re wrecking our country!
DONAHUE: And they’re going to move ...
CALLER: They’re still attacking us!
DONAHUE: ... to Connecticut.
CALLER: Al Qaeda cells is being found every day. They’re still in the flying schools illegally! These Muslims must be profiled and thrown out! And that’s the way we feel. Now, we work for the airlines. We’re not putting up with the crap ...
DONAHUE: You know that’s unconstitutional, right?
CALLER: All the other terrorist attacks ...
TAYLOR: No, it’s not unconstitutional.
CALLER: ... from flight 800 TWA, Khobar Towers, the first World Trade Center, et cetera-all by Muslim morons ...
MALZBERG: In fact, Phil, every ...
CALLER: ... that are fed up with their own government ...
MALZBERG: ... have ruled in favor of the administration ...
CALLER: ... that don’t treat them well!
MALZBERG: ... detention-detention without access in certain instances. The courts have ruled in favor of the tactics of the administration!
DONAHUE: Yes. Mr. Hamud, please.
HAMUD: The absurdity of it is, you waste resources profiling. Here’s this lady who hates all Muslims. There’s 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. They’re not just Arabs. They’re of every persuasion or race you could think of. And it’s you’d want to eliminate all South Americans from this country because they may be drug dealers because if you don’t think international narcotics dealing is not terrorism, you don’t know much about it.
You’ve got to concentrate not on ethnicity and not on religion. You’ve got to identify actual enemy targets of the country who want to hurt you, who have identified themselves as such.
MALZBERG: But you don’t want us going to mosques! And you don’t want to us monitor people like that! So you say do it, but you don’t want to give the Justice Department the rules and-the advantages it has!
HAMUD: The Justice Department is not going to find terrorists by monitoring mosques or churches.
MALZBERG: Look what just happened in London!
HAMUD: If you’re sitting in your pew praying ...
MALZBERG: Look what just happened yesterday! They raided the place and got five terrorists!
HAMUD: They did not get five terrorists. They got five people who may be accused of terrorism.
MALZBERG: Oh! Excuse me!
HAMUD: It was bogus charges. Because you know what? There’s a lot of disinformation ...
HAMUD: No, a suspect-they’re just rolling up numbers of arrestees to try to give the American people a false sense of security ...
MALZBERG: Oh, please!
HAMUD: ... that they’re actually protecting them. And they’re not. They haven’t caught any players from 9/11 because they’ve diluted their effort chasing after Baghdad now.
DONAHUE: And we’ll be ...
HAMUD: They’ve lost focus on the actual war against terrorism and chasing the bad guys.
DONAHUE: Yes. Yes. We’re going after Saddam! Does the name Osama ring a bell with anybody?
And we’ll be back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Got a topic or a guest you want to see on DONAHUE? Log onto donahue.msnbc.com and pitch your ideas. Plus, you could chat along with the show live every night. Speak out and let us know what you think. Phil’s on the Web now at donahue.msnbc.com.
DONAHUE: We’re back, battling it out over immigration. An e-mail from Barry. “What about Tim McVeigh-white, blue-eyed, home-grown terrorist? Immigration is not the problem.” Is it your view that Arabs are getting in because, what, they blend in?
TAYLOR: Well, it’s much, much easier for a terrorist from any country in the world, practically, to operate unnoticed in the United States because he’s already got many people who are like him already here.
DONAHUE: And if we had stayed all Irish ...
TAYLOR: Look, if-no ...
DONAHUE: ... then we would know who the terrorists were!
(LAUGHTER) TAYLOR: Several of these 9/11 guys, they couldn’t even speak English. They had no means of support. If they did not have already a built-in network of Islamics, Arabs here, in which they could blend and not be noticed, they’d have stuck out by sore thumbs!
DONAHUE: And then we’d have caught them!
MALZBERG: By the way ...
TAYLOR: Of course, we’d have caught them!
DONAHUE: And so when they got off the plane, boom! We got ‘em! The guys ...
DONAHUE: Are you serious? You’re saying ...
TAYLOR: What do you mean? Look ...
DONAHUE: Your point is what, that if we were all white, we’d be able to spot the people who are going to bomb us? Is that your points?
TAYLOR: Well, that would be rather obvious, wouldn’t it.
DONAHUE: You support this notion?
TAYLOR: How do you think-how do you think-do you think those guys could have got away with it in Japan?
DONAHUE: You want the-you’re proud of ...
TAYLOR: They’d have stuck out like sore thumbs!
DONAHUE: You are proud of the Confederate flag, aren’t you.
TAYLOR: Of the flag? Well, I think my ancestors were brave soldiers.
They fought and died for their country. Yes, they did.
DONAHUE: You probably want that flag to fly on the state capitols in all of the South, wouldn’t you?
TAYLOR: Well, that’s up to the people of those states.
DONAHUE: But you’re proud of it. You said so when you made that speech.
TAYLOR: Yes, I’m proud of it. Aren’t you proud of your ancestors?
DONAHUE: It’s-the Confederate flag speaks for slavery. That doesn’t bother you?
TAYLOR: It speaks for states’ rights. It speaks for independence.
DONAHUE: All right. OK.
TAYLOR: ... was an aspect of the problem. That’s got nothing to do with it.
MALZBERG: Timothy McVeigh is an aberration.
DONAHUE: An aberration? Oh, I see.
MALZBERG: All over the world, Muslims are killing Jews and Christians. And by the way ...
DONAHUE: White people don’t usually kill. Occasionally, one’ll get a little crazy.
MALZBERG: Are there organized white terrorist groups killing people in this country? No! John lee Malvo, a boat person from Jamaica, got off in Miami, made his way to Washington state ...
DONAHUE: John Lee Malvo was ...
MALZBERG: Listen to me!
DONAHUE: ... in the control ...
MALZBERG: Listen to me!
DONAHUE: ... of an adult male!
MALZBERG: And the authorities had him in Seattle and let him go!
Read the book “Invasion” by Michelle Malkin. It’s all in there!
DONAHUE: All right. I will.
Mr. Hamud, you’re listening in. I want to give you an opportunity before we run out of time here. Make your point here.
HAMUD: Immigration made this country great. Immigration brought new ideas, new industry, new culture, new food and new productivity ...
MALZBERG: New music!
HAMUD: ... in each wave. And it made it a great country. And if we’re going to do away with immigration, we’re going to have to start spelling America with a K instead of with a C.
DONAHUE: Mike from New York, I’m glad you waited. Are you there?
CALLER: Yes, I’m here, Phil.
DONAHUE: Go get ‘em, Mike.
CALLER: Thanks. I just want people to know that may be watching this in other countries that 2001 hasn’t scared most Americans, that we aren’t living in fear, and we’ll welcome them to come to this country. I also want you to know that my girlfriend’s mom immigrated here from China, who hasn’t been the friendliest country in the world to us. She worked in a sweatshop until she saved enough money to open up her laundromat. She worked in a laundromat and sent her daughter, who’s now my fiancee, to medical school. I just want to go on the record as saying thank you to every immigrant, including George Washington, that has made this country great.
DONAHUE: I thank you for making the case.
(APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: I don’t want this audience — yes? Please. Very little time. You had a one-liner?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Phil. I’m into celebrating cultural diversity, everything else, what this country was founded on. But I don’t think we should confuse diversity with national security interests. I think that what happened with Todd Beamer in that plane is what we all ought to celebrate a little more, not stand by as sheep and watch our country go downhill and see airplanes flown into buildings.
(APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: Thank you for making the point. Yes, ma’am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand that we have immigration issues in this country, but, sir, I think the way that you’re approaching the situation is fueling racial hatred in the country. And I know that the palpable tension in this audience over simply what you have incited is just very thick, and I’m very disappointed by that.
I think it can be approached a better way. I think the two of you are saying different things, and I’d like that to be separated because I agree with what you’re saying about immigration, but you’re making it a race issue and that the two are interchangeable. You have to keep them separate.
TAYLOR: I agree with the woman, and you’re pouring sugar over it.
(CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: This is venomous what you’re saying.
TAYLOR: It’s not venomous! It is silly to ...
DONAHUE: We will have you back.
TAYLOR: ... pretend race doesn’t matter.
DONAHUE: I don’t want you to be angry with me. You are entitled to make your case.
The clock is ticking. Thanks to all my guests. Here’s now Chris Matthews and the “HARDBALL” college tour. His special guest tonight, Gulf War journalist Peter Arnett. Go get ‘em, Chris.