Muslim Migrants Riot in Athens

I don’t understand. If those were “illegal” immigrants, then why were they not rounded up and deported?

It looks like the sweet talkers don’t have much to say. It’s hard to convince people they’re just humble immigrants trying to improve their lot in life, when said immigrants are rioting in the streets like conquering supremacists.

.Waves of illegal immigration in recent years have led to an influx of Muslims, mostly from Pakistan and Afghanistan, living in run-down parts of central Athens. Greek rights activist Thanassis Kourkoulas said the protest showed the migrants “have a voice”.

One would’ve thought that most Greeks would’ve learnt their lesson after centuries of occupation by the Ottoman Empire:
But don’t let that concern you, Mr Kourkoulas - the fact that “Muslim immigrants”, or the usual “youths”, seem to riot everywhere they inhabit in Europe; from Sweden to France to Germany - is merely a coincidence.

Right?

Can anyone explain why we never hear about this sort of thing in Japan?

This is not new!

This rioting has been going on for months now. While it’s not been constantly in the news, this stuff began around last Christmas. Why continue to tolerate it?

There is a solution. I have one word: DEPORTATION!

“Greek rights activist Thanassis Kourkoulas said the protest showed the migrants “have a voice”.

I take that back. This multicult isn’t trying to sweet talk us. He’s threatening us with all out war. Guys like him are delighted every time they see non-whites fighting white people.

If you haven’t already, you’d better start getting you and your family ready to protect each other.

I really hope the people of Greece understand that there is no middle ground or compromise when dealing with the issue of their nation being literally taken over, and they the native Grecians, being turned into second class citizens in THEIR own nation which is THEIR nation and not the worlds or anyone elses. I hope they get together and form a million man mob and hang every politician and beaurocrat who votes or works to hand THEIR nation over to some foreign people much like the Netherlands has been done. you literally see Sharia law exerting its influence over there now.

its possible that the whole koran/riot thing is a legitimate incident but i suspect it was instigated. the european parliament election is coming up june 7.

I don’t understand. If those were “illegal” immigrants, then why were they not rounded up and deported?

We don’t do it in the U.S. Why should we expect other civilized, mostly White nations to do it? Besides!!! one mustn’t OUTRAGE the muslims.

The last sentence was confusing for a moment. For some reason, I first read it: “Greek-rights activist Thanassis Kourkoulas” , then was stunned to see the liberal catch-phrase of support for the foreign muslims marauding in Athens.

Of course, I quickly realized it was meant to be read “Greek rights-activist Thanassis Kourkoulas”. He is clearly not concerned with the rights of Greeks.

The well-informed readers of this forum will recall that this is not the first time that Persians have set fire to Athens. However, I have never before heard of a Greek speaking in praise of such a thing.

Now, will a real Greek-rights activist step up and lead a demonstration of the Greek voice? Perhaps with a commemorative re-enactment of the brave commitment of Leonidas and his comrades?

Just what on earth are Pakistanis doing in Greece anyway?

The real tragedy is that Greeks who valiantly fought a very sustained attempt at muslim domination - through some very tyrannical oppression over aperiod of 400 years (the identity of Orthodox Christianity is very tied up with the meaning of ‘Greek’),should even contemplate having an immigrant muslim population (especially with arace with whom they have vno historical connections - Pakistanis)in its midst.

One would’ve thought that most Greeks would’ve learnt their lesson after centuries of occupation by the Ottoman Empire.

________

Actually, Greece was not brutally occupied. Not a single church or ancient Greek building (theater, temple, etc..) was damaged. Greeks formed the upper class in the Ottoman Empire as politicians, bankers and high ranked officers. In the 16th century, when the Ottoman Empire was at its best, almost 50% of Istanbul was non-Turkish (mostly Greek).

The real trouble broke out when the Greeks tried to reconquer Anatolia after the WW 1, defeat and the population transfer afterward…

Greeks and Turks are like Germans and the Dutch. They are so similar but they can’t get along…

I guess Greece has chosen to eliminate itself from the face of the earth. I thought they had learned their lesson after being overrun by turkish hordes.

Yeah, once upon a time 300 brave Greek men had a “voice” too. They were willing to exercise that voice against 300,000 muslims that wanted to take over their country. Are there anymore white European men like that? What happened to them?

its possible that the whole koran/riot thing is a legitimate incident but i suspect it was instigated. the european parliament election is coming up june 7.

If it is and helps the BNP gain seats in the EU parliament, I’m all for it.

I’m surprised the Greeks aren’t more patriotic. As I understand it, Greece was the only country that did not collaborate with the Nazis. Every other country conquered by the Nazis (and a few not conquered) fielded at least one SS division (not all division-strength, however). That includes places like England and Albania. Greeks are inordinately touchy about their country’s pride, and spend a lot of money in the US promoting classical studies and groups like AHEPA that get young Greek-American together to mate. What happened???

Paul Mendez,
Your ignorance of 20th century history is breath-taking.
England was never occupied by Germany in WW2, and never contributed a ‘division’ to the SS.

England was never occupied by Germany in WW2, and never contributed a ‘division’ to the SS.

Actually, some of the British channel islands were in fact, occupied by the Germans for some length of time in WWII.

William Cutting at 8:30 AM on May 29 wrote:

“The real trouble broke out when the Greeks tried to reconquer Anatolia after the WW 1, defeat and the population transfer afterward…”

You conveniently glossed over an entire (and sanguinary) chapter of Greek history called “The Greek War of Independence.” If life was a bed of roses for Greeks under Ottoman rule, why the need for such a bloody war for independence in the first place?

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-War-Independence-Struggle-Oppression/dp/1585673951

The Greek War of Independence from the Ottoman Turks was unbelievably brutal, with atrocities being committed by both sides. The atrocities were instigated by the Turks (this is documented, by the way) and the Greeks were then only too happy to retaliate in kind. Just as Vlad Tepés of Wallachia learned brutality from his Ottoman captors, so too did the Hellenes from their Turkish overlords.

When the war first broke out the rulers of Europe’s great powers shied away from the conflict, fearing it would “upset the balance” put in place after Napoleon’s defeat.

Christian Europeans, however, heard the clarion call to battle and thousands of them poured into the Peloponnesus to drive the hated Moslems from Mother Europa. When a British frigate acting as an observer was treacherously fired upon by an Egyptian warship, the gauntlet was thrown down and the allies threw their lot in with the Greeks.

The war, along with centuries of Ottoman misrule, left a bad taste for everything Islamic & Turkish in the mouths of most Greeks, but time seems to sadly dim many memories.

“Greeks and Turks are like Germans and the Dutch. They are so similar but they can’t get along…”

Similar in what way, sir? Linguistically? Religiously? Culturally? Have you ever been to Greece & Turkey? Have you ever met large numbers of Greeks and Turks? I have, and I can say for a fact they are not nearly as “similar” as you and some other posters here like to think.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/02/how-turkish-are-anatolians.html

By the way, aside from soccer rivalries, since when don’t Germans and the Dutch get along?

“Greeks and Turks are like Germans and the Dutch. They are so similar but they can’t get along.”

Isn’t it only western Turkey that has a strong Caucasian/European element, while eastern Turkey is more Mongoloid/Central Asian?

England was never occupied by Germany in WW2, and never contributed a ‘division’ to the SS.
———————-
Actually, some of the British channel islands were in fact, occupied by the Germans for some length of time in WWII.
- - - - - - - - - - - -

You’re correct. But (and forgive me for getting technical here), they are remnants of the old Duchy of Normandy and are not considered part of England, but are distinct.

I checked with Wiki: “They are British Crown dependencies, but neither is part of the United Kingdom.” The islands are also not part of the European Union, and not all islanders are automatically European citizens. They also issue their own banknotes and coins.

Even the Albanian “division” - never more than brigade strength - Paul refers to, “Skanderbeg” was so useless that it was disbanded, even as manpower-starved as Germany was. There is a good movie about the resistance and collaborators: “The Sorrow and the Pity” which you can probably find on VHS in your public library. The French SS veteran they interviewed enlisted mainly because he hated communists, but even the French in the Waffen SS called the Germans “Boches”. Not many of them survived, by the way. SS Division “Charlemagne” was wiped out in the fighting in Berlin in 1945.

Britain contributed only about two dozen men to the SS, recruited out of POW camps, the “Legion of St. George.” I think the SS tried recruiting Americans, with a similar lack of success.

The Greek War of Independence from the Ottoman Turks was unbelievably brutal, with atrocities being committed by both sides.

This ongoing dispute between the Turks and the Greeks is STILL ONGOING.

f life was a bed of roses for Greeks under Ottoman rule, why the need for such a bloody war for independence in the first place?

-The Greeks first rebelled and gained independence in 1829 as the nationalist movements were arousing all across Europe, not immediately after being conquered (1071 or 1453)! Because they formed the upper class and were exempt from military service (like all non-Muslims!)

-The Turkish War of Independence after WW1 against Greek occupation in Anatolia was perhaps more brutal. The retreating Greek soldiers used Scorch Earth tactics and raped/killed women en route.

______________

Similar in what way, sir? Linguistically? Religiously? Culturally? Have you ever been to Greece & Turkey? Have you ever met large numbers of Greeks and Turks? I have, and I can say for a fact they are not nearly as “similar” as you and some other posters here like to think.

-I am a full blooded Turk, living in Germany, have many Greek friends,visited Greece and I couldn’t find great differences apart from religion. Germans can’t, too as I was blamed so many times for being Greek…

And yes, they are culturally not similar, almost identical. Same food, same music, same behavior, too much smoking, laziness, enjoy the life mentality, etc….

_______________________________

By the way, aside from soccer rivalries, since when don’t Germans and the Dutch get along?

-Ask Germans what they think about the Dutch or vice versa… The German occupation in WW2, especially the destruction of Rotterdam was “unbelievably” brutal, as you always say, Lebensborn camps to produce “Aryan” children (German soldiers with Dutch women), etc….
The hatred against Germans is so high, so the Dutch even deny their origin. There was not a separate Dutch in the early ages. They were just Low Germans who spoke a Lower Franconian dialect.

___________________________

Isn’t it only western Turkey that has a strong Caucasian/European element, while eastern Turkey is more Mongoloid/Central Asian?

-Mongloid/Central Asian element is non-existent to very little in Turkey. It came first in 1243 War of Kosedag, Seljuk Turks against Mongolian invaders.
Most of the people in Turkey (Let’s say around 75%) are Muslim Anatolians, hence Greeks, pre-Greeks (Romans, Hittites, etc…)

In the (south) east of Turkey, Arabs and Kurds live with small Armenian remnants, hence very white.

But original Turks (around 25% I guess) are also non-Mongloid:

we may proceed to examine the most fully Turkish people in Turkey, the Yürüks, pastoral nomads of Cappadocia and Cilicia, who are supposed to have mixed little with non-Turks or other kinds of Turks since their arrival. A small but apparently representative series142 shows them to be tall, with a mean stature of 169 cm., mesocephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 79, and largely brunet. Their faces are moderately long (124.6 mm.) and moderately wide (144 mm.). In facial features they are not at all mongoloid. If the early Turkish invaders of Asia Minor belonged largely to this type, then the racial position of the modern Osmanlis in reference to that of the previous Anatolians is easily comprehended.

Some pictures of these people:

http://www.dervishbrothers.com/turveorg/yorukler/images/yoruk16.jpg

http://img193.echo.cx/img193/6512/yoruk11zk.jpg

http://www.seeingisdreaming.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/yoruk.JPG

Pretty caucasian, arent they?

You’re correct. But (and forgive me for getting technical here), they are remnants of the old Duchy of Normandy and are not considered part of England, but are distinct.

I think the islands were and are in fact as much a part of England as the Hawaiian Islands were part of the U.S. before becoming a state. Just as much as Africa is now a defacto U.S. dependant.

After the fall of Byzantine Empire in 1453 ,in the area of Greece more than 30 revolutions and rebellions took place but they never managed to reach large scale and were overwhelmed by better equiped and outnumbered by ottoman forces(check Morean war in 17th Century and the revolts in Epirus in 1600 and 1611).It is like suggesting that they were leading a great life and after the revolutions of Europe in 19th century they decided to do the same. Do not try to convince that Greeks and Turks were living in harmony for all those years,cause facts claim different.They were considered inferior objects from Turks!!!
Greeks not recruited in ottoman army?have you ever heard of Jannisaries?Greeks,Serbians,Croats,Bulgarians were taken by force as children and brainwashed to be converted from Christianity to Islam to become the elite forces of ottoman army.The first troops of Jannisaries were mostly Greeks,created from prisoners of war or slaves and as ottoman empire expanded they included rest Christians from Balkans.
Do not confuse Fanariots in Instanbul who were Greeks with the whole upper class of ottoman empire..them being Greeks did not mean that most of upper class of the empire was Greek!!!Greeks managed to get advantage of the trade of the empire after 1774,when greek ships were saing under the protection of Russian flag
Strangely i have found lots of differences between Greeks and Turks…of course they are Turks that look like Greeks,Slavs,Bulgarians and some of them are even blonde..that is natural since most of the residents of Byzantine Empire were forced to convert to Islam to avoid persecution and changed by will to avoid taxes.What if some are like Europeans?an Islamic country cannot be a part of Europe and European culture-heritage..since when Arabs are considered white according to European standards???maybe for US census beaurau yes but not for us!!

Very nice arguments…since Greeks and Turks smoke a lot and eat similar foods , they are brothers!! it is a way of translating history and modern countries relationships that i do not agree with..
It seems that you have not learnt the history of the Balkan peninsula properly..by claiming that greece and turkey are enemies since WWI is at least a mistake..please find and read the book of George Horton > and see what your fellow men did to the Christian minorities in Asia Minor since you refered on killing and rapes…at least Christians soldiers were not skining alive men or nailing horseshoes on their feet before they kill them…atrocities were commited from both sides..a war is not a pillow fight but comparisons can be made…an organised army is easier to be controlled than guerillas on hills and mountains…
http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/HortonBook.htm

The second picture you send to us shows a family of what Europeans would call gypsies…a trip to Romania,Slovakia,Italy ,Greece and Bulgaria would show you why i claim such.In western parts of Turkey many locals look like Mediterranean Europeans,no doubt about that but going towards Anatolia you see the difference with people from Balkans….do not stay only on skin color…being white skinned doesn’t make you European…

Christians soldiers were not skining alive men or nailing horseshoes on their feet before they kill them…

But they stoned, stabbed and then, while he was still alive, was tied to a wooden plank and burnt on fire; three Turkish children were slowly roasted on fire in front of the very eyes of their parents. While all these nasty incidents were taking place, the leader of the rebellion Ypsilantis remained as a spectator and tried to justify the actions of the rebels as, ‘we are at war; anything can happen’.
___

And yes, the so called “Greek war of Independence” was not actually a war but:

According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, “The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Pelopennesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821”.23 This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics.
___________

“[The Greek rebels] spared the lives of beautiful Muslim women, but sold them as slaves. The proceeds from these sales went to augment the pockets of rebel leaders such as Mavrokordatos. Mavrakordatos sold the women to the captain of a British ship.”

Quite interesting, right? The Turks are not the only people who collect beautiful women and sell them as slaves? See, another similarity between Greeks and Turks…

William Cutting wrote at 7:13 PM on May 30 wrote:

“I am a full blooded Turk, living in Germany, have many Greek friends,visited Greece and I couldn’t find great differences apart from religion. Germans can’t, too as I was blamed so many times for being Greek”

Perhaps because subconsciously you didn’t want to find “great differences” from them. This way, you’d have a justification for Turkey’s petition for membership into the EU. This is something both Greeks and Germans (as well as many other Europeans) DON’T want.

“And yes, they are culturally not similar, almost identical. Same food, same music, same behavior, too much smoking, laziness, enjoy the life mentality, etc”

Really? I’ve read EU statistics that claim Greeks are among the more reliable workers in the EU in terms of attendance and productivity. I’ve never read anything like that about Turks. Don’t confuse lack of job opportunities with lack of work ethic.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/news/content.asp?aid=85975

“Mongloid/Central Asian element is non-existent to very little in Turkey.”

I previously posted data giving the lie to that assertion.

“Ask Germans what they think about the Dutch or vice versa”

That’s hearsay and anecdotal. I want you to post a link to a survey or surverys showing there’s a decided undercurrent of hostility between these two peoples.

“The German occupation in WW2, especially the destruction of Rotterdam was “unbelievably” brutal, as you always say”

I call it as I see it, and the fact is, Turks are legendary for their brutality, just ask any Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian, Russian, Austrian, Hungarian, Arab, Armenian, Assyrian, Berber, Circassian, Kurd, etc. Brutality invites brutality, by the way, so you have no one but yourselves to blame for the “tender mercies” of retreating Greek soldiers during WW1.

“The Turkish War of Independence after WW1 against Greek occupation in Anatolia was perhaps more brutal.”

Where’s your evidence?

Aside from the Nazi era, Germans don’t appear to have been any more brutal in their treatment of conquered peoples than any other European people.

http://www.unc.edu/~nmdorsey/turkey.html

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenian_genocide.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_documentation_of_the_Assyrian_Genocide

http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/distance/hist/balkansa.htm

By the way, aside from soccer rivalries, since when don’t Germans and the Dutch get along?

— Ask Germans what they think about the Dutch or vice versa…
The hatred against Germans is so high, so the Dutch even deny their origin. There was not a separate Dutch in the early ages. They were just Low Germans who spoke a Lower Franconian dialect.
…………………………….
Mr. Cutting is (sad to say) quite correct. I was having a conversation with a German friend just last week who became rather agitated about this and told me, “They hate us more than anybody!” He said that Germany is still paying reparations to the Netherlands and will continue doing so until (I believe) 2015. Germany, for instance, is repairing the dykes; and there is a mountain along the Rhine near Bacharach that is being taken down and shipped north by barges to supply fill material.

I have heard this same thing from others, on both sides of the border. The Dutch do not appreciate my German accent in pronouncing their street names (well, I don’t know Dutch). And yes, they deny their origin. Cutting is correct that since at least the time of Charlemagne (Karl de Groot to them) or earlier, the Netherlands were simply a province within the German Empire (Deutsches Reich) until they revolted against the Spanish Hapsburgs in the 1500s, and got independence in 1648. Through royal marriages the Spanish crown had inherited the Netherlands, so the Dutch were revolting against Spanish rule, not German. But they were severed from Germany.

Incidentally, it’s revealing that until that time of separation our word “Dutchman” meant simply a German (Deutsch) — which is why we have Pennsylvania Dutch, who actually came from Germany, not Holland. There was no distinction at the time they came here (1600s). But today the Dutch don’t want to hear that they are Germans — (even though they are)! And you’d be wiser not to tell them.

I told a story here once before about a student from one of Germany’s top universities (Göttingen) who was incredulous when I mentioned to him that German and Dutch are related Germanic languages. He was stunned. He had never heard such a thing! (And I was stunned at such a gap in his education. This is not taught in the schools today.) He insisted they were utterly different, they had NOTHING in common.

This way, you’d have a justification for Turkey’s petition for membership into the EU. This is something both Greeks and Germans (as well as many other Europeans) DON’T want.

-I don’t want Turkey into the EU although I am an non-Muslim westernized educated Turk. Nor the people in Turkey.
http://tinyurl.com/mujm2d

_________________

Really? I’ve read EU statistics that claim Greeks are among the more reliable workers in the EU in terms of attendance and productivity.

-Greece would be as poor as many Eastern European countries she stayed out of the EU. They have nothing but tourism and pumping money of the EU.

9,2% of the population is still below the poverty line.
Historically, Greece has been a net beneficiary of the EU budget. Net payments to Greece totaled $4.9 billion in 1998, representing 4.2% of GDP. Net inflows were estimated at about $5 billion in 1998. Greece received substantial support from the EU through the Delors II package. Greece is set to receive 20.1 billion euros of funds from the EU’s budget, or approximately 1.8% of GDP.

_____________________________________

That’s hearsay and anecdotal. I want you to post a link to a survey or surverys showing there’s a decided undercurrent of hostility between these two peoples.

Here:
http://tinyurl.com/n6j5xn

_____________________________________

“The Turkish War of Independence after WW1 against Greek occupation in Anatolia was perhaps more brutal.”

That’s from your country:

http://tinyurl.com/ldpbfn

and you can read here: http://tinyurl.com/kle6vg
_________________________________________________
“Mongloid/Central Asian element is non-existent to very little in Turkey.”

My previous post was too long and I think it was probably truncated. But here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14586639 (94,1% is European or Middle East)

and this paper suggests that Central Asian admixture is higher in neighboring countries than in Anatolia (especially Page 5, how the Greeks deviate toward Caucasus people where the admixture is higher):

http://tinyurl.com/nqsodq

Recently, I’ve found a new paper that shows the non-Caucasoid admixture is higher in Greece (I doubt the reliability of this paper, though, but worth reading).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506

___________________________

Turks are legendary for their brutality

-If the Turks are so brutal, all the territory belonged to the Ottoman Empire would be theirs nowadays too. But Bulgarians are still Bulgarians, North Africans still North Africans, Serbians are still Serbians and so on… In fact, they are not more brutal than any other people on earth, comparisons can be made everywhere, take for example, the Chinese, Japanese atrocities against American captives, Russian “concentration camps” and treatment of Chechens, Swedish sterilizations and so on…

I say I don’t hate the Greeks or any other people nor I see them inferior. I don’t demand any reparations or have any historical claims on lands which belonged to Turkey someday in the past.

“Christians soldiers were not skining alive men or nailing horseshoes on their feet before they kill them”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe not, but they were pretty inventive in their own tactics. Ever read of Prince Vlad the Impaler? He was not known for his kindness!

Yes, the Turks were cruel, there’s no use denying it, but so was everyone else. It was a cruel age. And it’s not that many generations behind us.

“-Greece would be as poor as many Eastern European countries she stayed out of the EU. They have nothing but tourism and pumping money of the EU.

9,2% of the population is still below the poverty line.”

So you’re basically admitting that left to their own devices, the Greeks would be still be in far better shape, economically speaking, than the Turks. Economists estimate that 31% of Turkish households fall below the poverty line (see pgs. 8 & 9).

http://www.ibge.gov.br/poverty/pdf/turkey1.pdf

By the way, your article on the conduct of Greek soldiers in Turkey during WW1 doesn’t negate my assertion you have no one but yourselves to blame for it. Just as Sudeten & Oder-Neisse Germans were left to face vengeful Czechs & Poles at the end of WW2 (thanks to Nazi atrocities), so too were Turks in Anatolia left to face vengeful Greeks only too willing to repay the 400-year long “kindness” your people showed them. I don’t condone it. I merely pointed out (correctly) that brutality invites brutality.

“Here:”
http://tinyurl.com/n6j5xn

You should read articles before you post them. The author of that article can’t seem to make up his mind whether the Dutch still dislike the Germans or not. From the article:

“Many educated Dutch insist most anti-German sentiment is “folklore”. The 5 May anniversary will be a Dutch public holiday, but in the border areas, as many Dutch people will spend the day shopping in German superstores as will attend memorial services for their war dead.”

“That’s from your country: http://tinyurl.com/ldpbfn

and you can read here: http://tinyurl.com/kle6vg”

It’s not just from my country. Many of the articles documenting the atrocities were from British newspapers as well. By the way, aside from Turkey & Azerbaijan (which is hostile to Armenia), name one country that openly disputes the veracity of the Armenian/Assyrian genocide.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm

“http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14586639 (94,1% is European or Middle East)”

Your article reinforces my contention that Greeks & Turks are not
“brothers.” Read it and the one you posted about Greeks (which you yourself admitted to having doubts about). You’re not as closely related as you think. By the way, a Central Asiatic introgession rate of almost 6% (if true) is not “non-existent to very little.” It is statistically significant.

“If the Turks are so brutal, all the territory belonged to the Ottoman Empire would be theirs nowadays too.”

Oh really? The Nazis and Soviets were just as brutal, if not more so, than the Ottomans. Where are they now?