Mary Mitchell, Chicago Sun-Times, March 10, 2009
Fewer topics are as culturally divisive as spankings. If you are black, you probably call the act of disciplining a child with corporal punishment “a whupping.”
While all blacks don’t beat their children, and all whites don’t view spankings as abuse, we do seem to be divided.
When the race of the person observing the spanking is white and the child getting whipped is black, it becomes even more complicated.
For instance, a federal court jury recently awarded a white woman $200,000 in a discrimination case that involved “a bathroom whupping” of a 6-year-old African-American child.
In 2006, Cathleen Schandelmeier-Bartels was working as a cultural program coordinator at the South Shore Cultural Center, a Chicago Park District facility. Schandelmeier-Bartels alleged in the lawsuit that she was fired because she reported to the Illinois Department of Children and Family Service and the police that the 6-year-old’s aunt beat him in the park district bathroom.
{snip}
Schandelmeier-Bartels claimed that after she complained, an African-American program coordinator told her “It’s a black thing: We beat our children.”
Later, when she took the matter to Andrea Adams, her supervisor, she was again told: “This is how we discipline our children in our culture.”
{snip}
“In my mind, this is the primary message: It is not a cultural prerogative to beat our children,” Schandelmeier-Bartels said in a message she sent posted on her Facebook page.
No hitting ‘no matter what,’ she says
The Chicago Park District maintains that Schandelmeier-Bartels was not discriminated against. “Our position is that [she] was fired for lack of administrative ability to run the summer camp,” a spokesman said.
The agency has not yet decided whether to appeal the jury verdict, and Schandelmeier-Bartels also has a suit pending in state court.
{snip}
‘Whack’ ‘Ow’ ‘Whack’ ‘Ow’ ‘Whack’ ‘Ow’
For those of you who don’t know, a “bathroom whupping” usually happens after a child has acted out repeatedly in school or in public. In this case, the 6-year-old boy had gotten five write-ups for bad behavior during the summer program. A phone call was made to his mother, and his aunt picked him up.
The aunt asked Schandelmeier-Bartels “where the bathroom was.”
When she returned to where she left the boy and his aunt, Schandelmeier-Bartels said she heard “Whack” “Ow” “Whack” “Ow” “Whack” “Ow” several times, according to the suit. She reported what she considered abuse to the state and the police.
The next day, the boy’s aunt complained to Andrea Adams, the supervisor at the cultural center.
Schandelmeier-Bartels said her supervisor “yelled at” her, and told her to get out of her sight.
“Just because you don’t beat your child doesn’t mean she can’t beat hers,” Schandelmeier-Bartels said she was told. “Who are you to tell her how to raise her child?”
Obviously, spanking is not a “black thing,” although it is perceived as such by many. Despite the ongoing debate, spanking is still viewed as an acceptable way to discipline unruly children by a lot of people.
There also is a difference between physically disciplining a child and abusing one.
{snip}
But the Chicago Park District employees involved in this incident were the people who acted irresponsibly.
When a 6-year-old boy misbehaves to the point that he is about to be suspended from a summer program, he could be crying out for help. Unfortunately, Chicago Park District employees may have missed that because they couldn’t see beyond Schandelmeier-Bartels’ race.
Original article
(Posted on March 11, 2009)
Comments
First off, spanking is not abuse. I’m the mother of a first-grader, and just a whack on the behind is effective—doesn’t even have to hurt.
But there is a such thing as beating a child…it goes beyond spanking. I’ve heard from others how blacks in general discipline their children. Huge backhand to the face for starters, enough to just about knock the child down. I’m not surprised, given that a good number of blacks have a propensity for violence to begin with. Why do you think a relatively high percentage of blacks are in jail?
As much as I hate to say it whites who wiped unrully blacks are looked down upon in history. Yet it is fine for blacks to be do doing the whupping.
I have to say our current penal system has failed us. Perhaps a bit more whupping is what we need.
This is the issue on which I really part ways with many whites… I believe in spanking. No, I really, really, really believe in spanking. Good, old-fashioned, I-left-my-handprint spanking. The stinging kind that does a world of good. However, I am not prejudiced. I believe every color, age, persuasion, class, gender, and those in-between should spank and be spanked. Amen.
Something I don’t understand is this: Black parents are more likely than whites to use corporeal punishment, but it doesn’t mean that black children behave any better.
The best theory I can come up with is that, other than the obvious racial factors, black parents who spank tend to be rather impulsive in their use of corporeal punishment — in that it’s just a convenience object for the parents simply to get their children to to inconvenience them. White parents who use to tend to use it as a deliberate punishment that is a result of informal due process. In other words, the child knows full well why s/he’s being spanked. Unlike the black child, who’s going to get “whooped” at any time for just about anything.
What liberal garbage! There is no reason for a total stranger to report someone for spanking a child on the butt for misbehavior. Part of the problem with children today is that everyone is trying to psychoanalize a kids behavior. A kid who had five writeups needs a good swat on the bottom. I agree that there is abuse and something like a slap across the face or hitting with a fist clearly crosses that line.
There’s a difference between spanking and beating. There’s a diference between “discipline” (which needn’t be even physical) and “abuse”.
Beating children is not black; it’s simply lower class. It’s primitive. It’s what ignorant, incompetent parents do.
And whatsmore, if it produces so little visible results in black children, given their misbehavior as children and tendency to criminality as they get older, then it quite obviously is not an effective method of training a child. If the parents had more intelligence, they would see this.
The irony here is that one of the chief arguments against corporal punishment in schools is that a disproportionate of number of students punished this way are Black, and that it is a throwback to slavery and colonialism.
My own father used to beat the living daylights out of me, and I went to federal prison for three years for trusting him again and then threatening him when he betrayed that trust.
We have a daughter. Her mother is allowed to scold her when she misbehaves, but I will never tolerate her being hit. This is an emotional issue for me.
All we need is a million more Andrea Adams types to make it clear to young white liberals that blacks really don’t care about or believe in liberalism and that they are just voting Democratic because that’s where the money comes from.
I’m opposed to corporal punishment by the way. Rarely does it make the child understand his guilt, and that is what the goal of punishment should be. The Bible is wrong on this issue.
If “whupping” is what it takes to keep kids in line I’m all for it. I’d say that if a kid has five write ups for bad behavior than they are more than entitled to a whupping. If you don’t listen you will have to feel. If more black kids actually had fathers living in wedlock at home to give them whuppings perhaps the black crime rate would be much lower.
When I lived in “da’ Hood” in New Orleans, I witnessed many a black child getting a whoopin’ “Big Momma Style”.
The black lady in the article is right, it is a Black cultural thing, and from my observations, very warranted.
They know they got Whooped for doing “x” yesterday and they know they will get Whooped again for doing “x” again today. Yet they still DO “x”.
The fact that Blacks are generally too obtuse to even begin to grasp their own astonishingly blatant hypocrisy regarding racial double-standards, is just more proof that these people, on a wide scale, will just never fit into White society. If ever their were a people who personfy the, “we want to have our cake and eat it too,” it is the American Black.
What a bunch of tripe.
Once Cathleen Schandelmeier-Bartels and Mary Mitchell both have raised successful adult children, perhaps I’ll listen to what they have to say.
I think part of today’s social problems are the lack of spankings, see also “butt whuppins’” and disciplineing, when kids get out of control. As far as it being “a black thing”, that’s not true. It’s a black and white working class thing.
A white middle class soccer mom would have a discussion with their child when the latter decides to act like a social moron. Then the problem with their larve just gets worse.
I’d also like to add that if spanking is the only attention a child receives, I think that would encourage bad behavior…act up, get attention.
If you reward good behavior AND punish for bad behavior, the child is going to want the positive attention. It just seems logical, doesn’t it?
My child made Student of the Month for his class for February, and when he saw me smile at the certificate he’d brought home, he was pleased and excited and all smiles—because he had made Mommy happy and he knew it. You better believe I praised him! Extra hugs! (I hug him every day and I always tell him I love him.)
So—in a nod to James from NOLA’s post—perhaps that Big Momma Whuppin’ isn’t enough. Some Big Momma hugs and everything might actually help. You just have to wonder how many black mothers are too busy trying to score crack or some other drug and just haul off and belt Leroy if he annoys her.
I am a 66 year old Black recently retired school suprerintendent. I grew up in a family where whenever you got out of line, you got butt whipping. No one abused anybody.
Neither me nor my 5 siblings (three brothers, one sister) , I was the second youngest, were any worse for it. In fact, it was probably due to such discipline, that we were able to grow up to be successful adults. My parents loved us, but they kept usin line. My mother will be 93 years old this coming June and I still fear her to some degree!
I also disciplined my two sons, now 37 and 34 and a lawyer and college professor respectively, whenever they got out of line.
They will be the first to tell you that I did not abuse them. There is nothing wrong with a belt or switch to the behind of a child.
In fact, there needs to be more discipline today.
Anonymous:
Their is nothing PRIMITVE about disciplining children. You are mistaking discipline for abuse. They are two totally different things.
I’ve seen an aweful lot of kids raised with love and discipline, but no spankings or beatings. So I believe in child rearing without it. I, on the other hand, was violently beaten by my mother. Sometimes when my father was home from the Navy, she would convince him to wip me with his belt for some trumped up nonsense. Fortunately, my excellent school grades, and variety of extra curricular activities, resulted in my appointment to a federal academy. I’ve had a sucessful life (no contact with my parents in nearly 20 years), but I take anti-depresants daily (and have for years). A number of years ago I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. Since I started taking SSRIs I’ve enjoyed my happiest days! So please don’t beat your kids. It’s not necessary if you do your job as a parent the right way! You can’t always see the results of parental violence, but it’s there all the same.
As a Pan-Nationalist, I think African-Americans should have the ability to raise their children by whatever methods they find necessary, and white people should keep quiet about it. Their culture, their rules. We want a space for our culture so we can have our own rules.
The problem here is not race, it is intelegence. Assuming the adult can articulate the moral mistake the child has made, and the child can grasp the concept of their misbehavior, then a “whooping” is unnecessary. Praobelm is, both assumptions are flawed. Neither party has the capacity to understand or articulate the need for boundaries.
bartels is just another meddling liberal who had the tables turned on her. just when she did the politically correct thing, all her liberal supervisors turned on her, good for them, maybe it will teach bartels a lesson about pc. also good for the aunt, she knows whats best for the child. discipline is not abuse like the pc crowd wants to to believe.
Being that 70% of their babies are born out of wedlock, they are on higher welfare doles, have higher incarcertaion rates (which eats up our dollars), more black groups being funded with taxpayer dollars, and those “evil white people” are footing the bill for all their other entitlements…yes, we damn well can say anything we want to about how they raise their kids.
Spanking Children Causes Sexual Problems Later in Life
Children whose parents spank them or use other aggressive methods to punish them are more likely to have sexual problems as teenagers or adults, according to a research made by a University of Hampshire domestic abuse expert.
Professor Murray Straus concludes that children who are spanked have a much higher risk in adulthood to verbally or physically coerce a partner into having sex, to have unprotected sex and to have masochistic sex.
http://tinyurl.com/bja6aq
Other studies have also been made, showing the link between spanking and physical violence, but Professor Straus’ study is the first to link spanking with sexual behaviour.
“My underlying motive was to bring this to the attention of parents and of more people, in the hope it will help continue the decrease in the use of corporal punishment,” Straus said, according to The Associated Press.
Straus first conducted a study of this kind in the 90’s, when he asked 207 students
Straus declared he would like pediatricians to warn against spanking. He thinks parents should be made aware about the obvious harm that physical violence does to children later in life.
“Parents should never, ever spank because, although it does work, it’s no better than non-hitting methods that don’t have harmful side effects. If there was an FDA for spanking, they’d say use an alternative that doesn’t have harmful side effects,”he said.
To Brett Stevens:.
I agree with you. This yenta Cathleen Schandelmeier-Bartels should keep her stinking nose out of her supervisor’s personal affairs. Give Bantus enough rope and they’ll hang themselves.
I’d like to see Bartels go into some ghetto area in Chicago, Detroit, Gary or East St. Louis and tell the people there how they should be raising their children. She’d probably set a new record for the mile run.
A big issue in this article is the woman who blew the whistle on the aunt was summarily fired.
Blacks complain almost constantly about being treated unfairly and being “first fired”, but woe be unto the white who may cross their rigid boundaries for conduct. I’ve found that blacks are heartless in their correcting of subordinates yet they demand chance after chance on the job when they foul up. If they don’t get multiple chances, expect a lawsuit.
If a parent abuses a child emotionally or physically, they will pay a price in court. The added problem is that society pays the biggest price when the abused child grows up and keeps the cycle of abuse going. Considering the danger inherent in any black community and my years of experience working in the court system, I don’t just believe, I know that child abuse is common among that population.
As far as the “Pan Nationalist”; wow, what a lable. He might want to consider that regardless the culture, there are American rules of decent and civil conduct, this article notwithstanding.
If the kid is on the edge of being thrown out of summer camp, then the mother may be on the edge of losing her job due to the loss of her child care arrangement (the summer camp.) If she loses her job, she loses her car, her housing, etc. The child’s bad behavior can derail the entire family. I don’t really approve of this form of discipline, and if it has to be administered, it shouldn’t be done in a public bathroom where the child is going to be humiliated by having onlookers, but if the child was WRITTEN UP five times for bad behavior and was on the verge of being expelled from the program, then he surely went through an unlimited number of “time outs” etc., that did not have the desired effect on his behavior. Assuming these written reports of bad behavior were coming home from the summer camp, he was probably warned by his mother or his aunt that if he didn’t start behaving he would be punished.
What is interesting here is that these child-care workers are “mandated reporters” who are REQUIRED to report all suspected child abuse to the Child Abuse Hotline. The woman who reported this incident was only following the requirements of the law. Yet the summer camp employees seem to be quite open about having one standard for white families and another one for black families. I have heard that there is a very similar color line within Child Protective Services, with whites having their children removed from their home for a swat on the bottom outside Target, while blacks beat their children with electrical cords and get away with it. If a WHITE woman had beaten a WHITE child in the bathroom of a summer camp, I think the child would have been in foster care the same day.
I can’t speak for kids who are out of control, but the knowledge that my father would, if necessary, smack me, gave his verbal warnings a lot more weight. I always told my kids, Humans have language so that we don’t have to beat each other with sticks, so listen to what you’re told. For those who won’t understand speech, a swift hand will usually improve hearing. My kids know I mean what I say, and make their choices accordingly.
Their is nothing PRIMITVE about disciplining children. You are mistaking discipline for abuse. They are two totally different things.
Didn’t I already say exactly that?
And incidentally Madam School Superintendent, while we’re at it, the word is, “There” is, not “their” is. I wouldn’t be picky with anyone else, but a school superintendent should certainly know better.
I’ve seen an aweful lot of kids raised with love and discipline, but no spankings or beatings. So I believe in child rearing without it. I, on the other hand, was violently beaten by my mother. Sometimes when my father was home from the Navy, she would convince him to wip me with his belt for some trumped up nonsense. Fortunately, my excellent school grades, and variety of extra curricular activities, resulted in my appointment to a federal academy. I’ve had a sucessful life (no contact with my parents in nearly 20 years)- Butkis
She regarded me as an incorrigible child who needed beating (who do you think made me incorrigible?) When my much younger brother was born, after I was grown, she promised God that she would never beat him; and she didn’t. He never knew what a beating was, not even a slap. He grew up to be a well-behaved, loving child who cared for her in her old age up to her death, whereas I hate her memory to this day and refused to answer or even read her letters. I still have nightmares about her.
I absolutely agree with Butkis and Mr. Scott. Btw, I understand that the Japanese (known for their well behaved children) do not physically discipline small children. On the other hand, look at the results all that severe physical “discipline” has on blacks. The disastrous results speak for themselves. I say again that violent punishments are the mark of primitive, low-class people! And I should know.
The problem is not that blacks spank their kids, it is that they abandon their kids.
This article reminds me of a black comedy show I watched briefly while channel surfing. The black comedian was talking about getting big time whuppings. Admitting to being a total miscreant, he said he deserved the whuppings. He then went on to say that with black children, you have to beat them really hard. You have to beat them until the monkey comes out. The black audience roared with laughter.
While it is true that my mother often overdid it with punishing me, I still vote for a slap instead of long discussion about how bad it was what I just have done. If the rules are clear, corporal punishment is short and effective, the child knows very well what it was for and we can move on to other things.
And I can only second to the reader Johnny above, who wrote: I’d say that if a kid has five write ups for bad behavior than they are more than entitled to a whupping
It’s a black issue and blacks need to deal with it in any way they see fit. However, when bad black kids and bad black adults wreak havoc on whites and white neighborhoods, it becomes a white issue. And, vice versa. White folks shouldn’t be condemning black folks for whupping their kids when I see an awful lots of white kids that need the freakin daylights whupped out of them - and their parents! “Spare the rod and spoil the child” is a timeless statement of good sense!
What does it mean when one African American say to another, “I’m gonna beat the black offa you” ? I hear this alot. It’s rather a common saying amongst blacks.
“Being that 70% of their babies are born out of wedlock, they are on higher welfare doles, have higher incarcertaion rates (which eats up our dollars), more black groups being funded with taxpayer dollars, and those “evil white people” are footing the bill for all their other entitlements…yes, we damn well can say anything we want to about how they raise their kids. “
Exactly!!!!! We can debate all day long the merits of spanking. I personally see nothing wrong with a swat on the behind but not a beating, there is a difference. We don’t know what really went on with this kid and his aunt, was it just a spanking or a beating??? Anyways, as long as black fathers abdicate their responsiblity with the result being that whites have to pay for it through their tax dollars, when black young people commit so many more crimes which affects whites, then yes we do have a right to tell blacks how to raise their children.
Anonymous 4:37am:
I believe that Claudia said she was a superintendent, not a “school principal.”
Secondly, instead of nitpciking about one or two words, you need to read her argument which I thought was right on the money!
It seems that on the comprehension question that you might want to start taking your own advice.
“Their is nothing PRIMITVE about disciplining children. You are mistaking discipline for abuse. They are two totally different things.” Anonymous and Claudia
I must agree with Anonymous and Claudia on this issue. The government has no right to tell parents (black, white or otherwise) how to discipline their children, unless the children are being physically harmed. Growing up in the Southern culture I received my share of “whuppings”—most were richly deserved due to my bad behavior.
I’d like to see Bartels go into some ghetto area in Chicago, Detroit, Gary or East St. Louis and tell the people there how they should be raising their children.
“when black young people commit so many more crimes which affects whites, then yes we do have a right to tell blacks how to raise their children.”
Exactly. When the “black method” of raising children produces such notoriously poor results, then maybe it is time to question it and for others to step in and show them how to do it right. Those “whuppings” obviously haven’t been doing much good!
After all, as you said, the end results (through crime and general social misbehavior) will eventually affect us and all of society. So in the long run everyone pays, theyfore it’s everyone’s business.
No! You’re overlooking the larger picture. Do you really assume that he never had any, um, “discipline” BEFORE this? Surely this wasn’t his first beating.
The way he was raised was THE REASON for why he is such a difficult problem child. In other words, it was really HIS AUNT’S FAULT that he is a screwed up kid (and will be a screwed up adult). Giving him more of the same medicine is not going to help. It will make his condition worse.
Posted by Drew at 8:08 AM on March 12
I believe it was the late Bernie Mac in that movie whose routine was about how brutal he is with his own children. Mac treated the subject in a positively JOYOUS way — and his audience responded in kind — giving the impression that everyone in the house was united in the opinion that beating your kids was natural, desirable and even kind of FUN.
Anecdotal evidence I’ve noticed over the years — various blacks casually mentioning either the routine abuse they received growing up and/or the routine abuse they inflict on their own chilluns — supports my hypothesis that there is, in the black community, no significant opposition AT ALL to the idea that corporal punishment is AND SHOULD REMAIN the only disciplinary tool any parent will ever need.
Raising a well-behaved child with mere WORDS? In the ghetto, that’s considered nothing but “white-folks nonsense.”
Claudia:
I am White, 59 years old and I came from family that believed in spanking us when we got out of line as well.
You are right, there is nothing wrong with disciplining children as long as it does evolve into abuse. Your parents obviously did a good job.
It’s not about race , it’s about good parenting.
GOD BLESS YOUR MOTHER!!!! 93 years old!!!!
“Parents should never, ever spank because, although it does work, it’s no better than non-hitting methods that don’t have harmful side effects.
In nature, offspring that fail to heed parental lessons or instructions, most often are killed making the others more receptive to training. Not my idea, it is one of nature’s.
There is a marked difference between correction and abuse. When a young man needs to get the tar whipped out of him, it has to be done. but it should be done to benefit the boy. It shouldn’t be done out of anger. It should also be administered by the boys father.
It is unacceptable to strike a girl, either by her father or mother. There are other ways of correcting girls/young women.
Tom Iron…
Raising a well-behaved child with mere WORDS? In the ghetto, that’s considered nothing but “white-folks nonsense.”
Posted by Anonymous at 2:03 PM on March 12
That’s mostly true for whites who had baby boomer era parents (like me), but the older American, white and black, got spanked by parents and teachers.
Sleep, I’ve read some excellent posts by you on various threads, which is why I always cringe when you put out the occasional bit of senselessness such as this:
I’m opposed to corporal punishment by the way. Rarely does it make the child understand his guilt, and that is what the goal of punishment should be.
No, that is not the goal of punishing a small child. The goal, the only realistic goal, is to stop the bad behavior. Small children, of any race, are not generally capable of “understanding their guilt,” and have no way of being so.
Case in point: When my cousin’s two year old kept running out into a busy street and repeatedly disobeyed commands from his mother to stop, a good can’t-sit-down-for-a-week spanking delivered by his grandmother drive the point home. It didn’t matter whether he knew why he couldn’t run out in the street, only that he didn’t do it.
Yes, I know there are other methods and no one-size-fits-all options, all this changes as the child matures, yadda yadda yawn. I’m simply pointing out that the logic behind your thinking is positively foolish.
Neither me [sic] nor my 5 siblings (three brothers, one sister), [3 + 1 = 4, not 5] I was the second youngest, were any worse for it. In fact, it was probably due to such discipline, that we were able to grow up to be successful adults. I can’t see that you’re any bit the better for it! A professional educator(!!!) should be able to write at better than a sixth grade level and do basic arithmetic! It is pretty obvious that your “successful” adulthood is due far more to Affirmative Action than to “discipline”.
Their [sic] is nothing PRIMITVE about disciplining children. You are mistaking discipline for abuse. They are two totally different things.In fact, there needs to be more discipline today.
I can agree with Claudia that there needs to be more discipline. And that there is a differenc e between abuse and discipline. Absolutely! But her concept of “discipline” is totally out of alignment with mine. Discipline implies control, order, guidance, training. It does not have to be physical at all. You’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And as has been said by others above, the spectacular lack of sucess achieved by Black Discipline proves its negligible worth. What do all those “whuppins” produce? A generation of psychologically messed up, irresponsible, criminally inclined adults. If you doubt me, the jails, VD clinics, maternity wards, and welfare offices are full of proof. Some results!
Case in point: When my cousin’s two year old kept running out into a busy street and repeatedly disobeyed commands from his mother to stop, a good can’t-sit-down-for-a-week spanking delivered by his grandmother drive the point home. It didn’t matter whether he knew why he couldn’t run out in the street, only that he didn’t do it.
Yes, I know there are other methods and no one-size-fits-all options, all this changes as the child matures, yadda yadda yawn. I’m simply pointing out that the logic behind your thinking is positively foolish.
Sorry, Sam. I agree with Sleep. YOU are the one whose thinking is “positively foolish” this time.
I only ever hit my children when they were young and I was unable to negotiate with them. Like it or not, little kids are difficult to get through to at times. However, once my children were older I stopped any sort of striking and now require them to exercise when they screw up. Parents will be amazed at the difference a few laps around the neighborhood or 50 push-ups can make in a problem child. However, mine are not in high school yet, so let’s revisit this in a few years!
The crime rate among blacks tells me that there have been far too many that didn’t get enough “whuppins”
Let’s not forget our Racial 101. There is one law for the
Donald:
Thank you. Likewise.
First off I’m glad that white folks are getting in on the “discrimination” scam. I’d like to see it abolished entirely, but as long as it’s around we ought to get our fair share.
In regards to the other posters, this really isn’t the place to discuss how to punish your children. This incident is an example of Blacks acting in a way that conflicts with our accepted societal standards, then trying to excuse it by invoking “Black” cultural norms. It was incredibly inappropriate for the aunt to do this in a public venue, and it was the program coordinator’s responsibility to coordinate it.
I just hope this is a wake-up call for Mrs. Schandelmeier-Bartels. As a white woman, she must be a brainwashed bleeding-heart liberal to be working at an inner-city Chicago “cultural program”, no doubt inundated with dysfunctional degenerate families and staffed by incompetent AA hires. Hopefully this will open her eyes to the dystopia her kind has created.
The point of the article (for our purposes) was the unfair treatment of the White employee by her black ‘superiors’.
But since this has devolved into a debate over corporal punishment, I will add my little bit. The danger of spanking children is that it teaches them that it’s proper to use physical violence against another person.
Because my parents and their servants physically punished me for any behavior they did not like, I felt obliged to do the same with my peers. I remember a moment in kindergarten, when a Yankee kid wanting a specific toy said “I need it” in an accent I found offensive. I felt a strong urge to go over and hit him, just because I did not approve of his speech.
Luckily, I developed a toxic personality, an have had no need for violence. But I can see that excessive corporal punishment is one factor behind bullies, rapists, wife beaters and the rest. Spanking teaches that it is ok to invade another person’s space, to cross a line and physically violate another person. Once one is comfortable crossing that line…
Personally, I did not find our black servants to be as violent as the poor whites. But if other posters are correct in describing the extremes blacks go to in ‘whuppin’ their children, is it any wonder so many blacks grow up to commit violent crimes?
“What does it mean when one African American say to another, “I’m gonna beat the black offa you”? I hear this alot. It’s rather a common saying amongst blacks.”
Well Tiffany, it’s totally literal. I used to work in the ghetto, and I saw children holding their mother’s hands who looked like Pamela Anderson and the Hansen Brothers all day long!
“Personally, I did not find our black servants to be as violent as the poor whites.”
It is a well known fact that child abuse is passed along from generation to generation. Child abusers are those who were abused themselves as children.
PS. It’s amazing to note here the sharp division of opinion on this subject! It seems to me that it falls more along class lines than along racial ones.
Anonymous 1:45pm:
I would say you are correct on this point. I used to work with some upscale Blacks and they mentioned how their parents would would use other methods to discipline them when they misbehaved such as derpriving them televison rights, grounding them for a week, not giving them their allownace for that week etc… This was how many other White upscale parents responded to their children as well.
It seems that phyiscal beatings are a lower income tradition. It is defientiely class based.
George:
I am one of those Whites who agree with Blacks, Whites, or anyone else who argues that their is nothing wrong with spanking a child as long as it does not go to the point of abuse. I occasionally got spankings when I got out of line. It did not do me any harm.
There is nothing wrong disciplining young children in this manner. Some of you are just being foolish.
“I can see that excessive corporal punishment is one factor behind bullies, rapists, wife beaters and the rest. Spanking teaches that it is ok to invade another person’s space, to cross a line and physically violate another person.”
And let me add too that many wives are just as prone to attack their husbands as vice versa. Husbands rarely report such assaults, as it is embarassing for them to admit that they got beaten up by a woman. But it happens, and more often than the public would realize.
The way to avoid these cross-cultural misunderstandings is, as Jared Taylor recommends, to repeal the laws that coerce racial mixing,so that the two races can live apart from each other.
The two races’ natural inclination to separate is shown by the voluntary separation that occurs in most school and work-place cafeterias today, as well as in other settings.
The boy’s whupping would have been a non-incident, of no concern at all to white people, if blacks and whites had not been sharing the same facilities, and thus the whupping come to the notice of a white person.
In the segregated South, in their own communities and institutions, blacks modeled their behavior roughly on the behavior of whites in the white communities.*
Of course blacks’ copying of white norms didn’t result in exact replicas—what was a spanking by most whites possibly became something more assaultive by many blacks.
Not that there wasn’t white child abuse, of course—my remarks are only meant as a rough sketch.
*In that era, without the presence of blacks and other disruptive factors in white communities, whites were able to maintain their own social norms in their own communities.
Anonymous:
While this may be true in regards to wife physically abusing husbands, the fact is that men are much more likely to abuse women. Secondly, we are discussing corporal punishment as it relates to children, not spousal or realtionship abuse among adults.
For th e recod, I side with those who argue that spankings are ok as long they are not overly violent.
“I am one of those Whites who agree with Blacks, Whites, or anyone else who argues that their is nothing wrong with spanking a child as long as it does not go to the point of abuse. I occasionally got spankings when I got out of line.It did not do me any harm. Some of you are just being foolish.”
And what line defines that “point of abuse”? I would say that some of you are failing to see that distinction. I said nothing, nothing, NOTHING about a little smack or a spanking! Who said otherwise? The article is about the Black Style of discipline which is all too often about BEATING a child into submission. A beating is not a spanking. Wolloping a child until its spirit is broken will get you negative results. What is foolish about saying that?
Look at the analogy with pets. If you treat a pet with love and kindness and train it patiently, you will end up with a loving, devoted pet. If you beat and abuse a pet, you will end up with a snarling, vicious animal. Why is that so difficult for so many to see? Why are the prisons today full of snarling, vicious people? Most or all received abuse and beatings as children, and all those beatings didn’t seem to do them any good. They only made them more hardened.
Now, inevitably, someone will reply, “Well, I received an occasional spanking as a child and it did me no harm.” They STILL don’t get it!
George:
You seem to want to argue that all Blacks beat there children violently. There is no evidence to prove that this is the case anymore than some White parents do.
What many people here are arguing is that a number of parents Black, White etc… beleive in corporal punishment as long as it does not denigrate into violent abuse. I agree with those who harbor this position.
In all due respect, you have lost this argument.
Blacks, even the most educated, sophisticated affirmative action professionals generally go on a rant about whupping children whenever the subject comes up.
Even physicians and social workers who deal with abused children will rant and rave about the good effects of whupping children and what a wonderful child raising tool electric cords,leather belts and other whupping tools are.
They never just talk quietly about whupping either. They rant and rave, shout, gesticulate, get out of their chairs and flail their arms and carry on about how whupping is a good way to raise childre.
Considering the total disfunction of their children, their low IQs, early crude and vulgar sexuality, violence and crime rate, a reasonable person would assume that the blacks would rethink their whupping practices.
But then reason is not part of the black community. Violence, impulsivity, hatred rule the black community. That’s why they beat and kill each other.
George:that all Blacks beat there [sic] children violently. There is no evidence to prove that this is the case anymore than some White parents do.
What many people here are arguing is that a number of parents Black, White etc… beleive [sic] in corporal punishment as long as it does not denigrate [degenerate] into violent abuse. I agree with those who harbor this position.
In all due respect, you have lost this argument.
No, I am NOT arguing that position at all. That is not MY OWN argument! It is that of the article. Have you actually READ the article? It explicitly states that:
an African-American program coordinator told her: “It’s a black thing: We beat our children.” “This is how we discipline our children in our culture.”
“WE BEAT OUR CHILDREN.” Is that MY argument? It’s a quote! Perhaps you are saying that the author of the article has lost the argument, not I.
My own position is that beating is a child-discipline strategy resorted to by ignorant, very low class people - of WHATEVER race, regardless. I DON’T think it is specifically a “black thing”. Incidentally, your own writing reveals exactly where YOU stand in that regard. Thus, it’s understandable. Ignorant people cannot comprehend what they are doing wrong. That’s why they are ignorant.
“reason is not part of the black community. Violence, impulsivity, hatred rule the black community.”
I have no argument with you on these points. Indeed, I agree. But I will extend them to include what I have already described as “ignorant, low class people”. Those same emotions that you describe above, and the concomitant social problems associated with them, rule BOTH of those communities regardless of race.
It is not so much “a black thing” as a lower class thing. And let me make my contempt clear that by “low class”, I mean those at the VERY BOTTOM of the pile. The lowest!
“Despite the ongoing debate, spanking is still viewed as an acceptable way to discipline unruly children by a lot of people.
That is to say, if the aunt was such an expert at child rearing, why did he become a problem child? This didn’t come about overnight. I have to agree.
As they said, look at all the prisons. Look at all the crime stats. The VD rates. The illegitimacy rates. The drop-out rates. The suspension rates. Considering the glaring failure of the “black style” of child discipline to produce desirable results, it is amazing to see the number of people who continue to defend it.
Whether it’s race or class, this is obviously a hot topic for those who have strong personal memories, one way or the other.
It reminds me of those African groups (like Somalis) that perform genital mutilation on their children. Despite having undergone this terrible procedure themselves, when they are grown they insist that it is necessary to raise children the right way. And they insist that since it was done to them, they have to do it to their children, in turn.
They will also insist it did them no harm and that busybody outsiders should not meddle in their culture. They are very defensive about it. Same thing, really.
There was a big fuss in Los Angeles government run day care centers for toddlers and pre schoolers a few years ago. This is of course a no whites need apply job.
Affirmative action brought hispanic day care workers into this previously all black occupation. The black women were shocked, shocked I tell you when the hispanic day care workers helped the toddlers take their coats on and off, comforted them when they cried, forbade fights and hitting, helped them with their food and other things.
The hispanic women were totally shocked that the black women expected 18 month old babies to take their coats on and off, dress and totally take care of themselves.
It was a total culture clash. A hispanic woman involved in this mess asked me how white anglos treat their toddlers and preschoolers. I told her that we are like the hispanics, we help them dress, get into the car, and with other activities until they are about 7 and can do things themselves. Nor do we encourage our toddlers to fight and hit.
It was a total culture clash…… Nor do we encourage our toddlers to fight and hit.
It is known that toddlers who are raised in a culture where hitting others is considered permissible, tend to grow up to be child beaters, wife beaters (and husband murderers too). To them, hitting is an acceptable way to get others to do what you want them to do. If they don’t comply with your wishes, you just hit them until they do. Is it any wonder that so many of them end up in prison for crimes of violence, when they come out of a culture where violence is so casually accepted?
A friend and I were having a conversation the other day about a radio program he had listened to. It was about the different assumptions that people make when they hear that (let’s say) friends or neighbors “have been fighting”. Blacks interpret that to mean that they have been slugging it out physically, whereas whites will interpret it to mean that the neighbors have been arguing, or having a spat, not a physical battle. Blacks obviously see things in much more physical rather than abstract terms.
I replied to him that in the same way, to whites (and also to the dictionary) the word “discipline” means the imposition of order and control, the application of a system of rules and regulations. To blacks, the word “discipline” means simply punishment, especially physical punishment.
Therefore, to whites, to “discipline” a child is to train it; to blacks, to “discipline” a child is to beat it.
I’d think that an important consideration in evaluating corporal punishment would be what feelings the parent is sending toward the child during the punishment, and what the child is feeling in return, as well as what the quality of the relationship, the quality of the feelings, between the parent and child are in general.
Aside from really brutal punishment, I’d think considerations such as these would be more important than the form of punishment itself.
What I was trying to say in my last post was that if the feelings, and the parent-child relationship, are “clean”, i.e. not over-laden with neurosis in which something is being acted out on the child, then I doubt mild corporal punishment does harm.
But I haven’t raised kids, nor experienced that sort of “clean” relationship as a kid, so I’m only speculating on that last statement.
To Posted by Anonymous at 5:35 PM on March 15:
Everything you said in your post is unfortunately also true of our own practice of infant genital mutilation.
an important consideration … would be what feelings the parent is sending toward the child during the punishment
I do agree with Mr. Dumpty. Along those lines, whatever you think of spanking, I believe it is important that a parent should never spank a child when in a rage. In that case, the parent is just venting his/her own feelings, taking out his anger on the child, and it really has nothing to do with training the child. What it amounts to is a big person beating up a helpless little person.
Discipline should be aimed at correcting bad behavior, not at getting even with someone who has annoyed you.
