Teresa Watanabe, Los Angeles Times, February 23, 2009
Hongsun Kim has heard it all. When the number of Koreans began multiplying in Little Tokyo Towers a few years ago, complaints about them from Japanese residents quickly began to surface, the Los Angeles social worker said.
“They smell of garlic.” “They don’t follow the rules.” “They’re going to take over.” Then, from the Koreans: “The Japanese are snooty.” “They don’t greet you in the elevator.” “They disdain Korean culture.” “They’re trying to push us out.”
As Korean residents and shop owners have increased their presence in Little Tokyo, the historic heart of Southern California’s Japanese American community, the multicultural melding hasn’t always been harmonious. Today, however, the tone in the towers—a 300-unit senior housing facility on 3rd Street—is strikingly different.
{snip}
Over the last two years, the residents of Little Tokyo Towers have made their home a case study in containing cultural conflict and building cohesion—a challenge faced by other Los Angeles ethnic neighborhoods, where new populations are joining long-settled ones. The task is particularly delicate when it comes to Japanese and Koreans, whose motherlands are burdened with a long history of conflict stemming from territorial disputes and historical grievances related to Japan’s colonization of Korea in the early 20th century.
But the turnabout in Little Tokyo proves ethnic harmony is possible, Kim and others say.
{snip}
Hard-won insight
The rapprochement is led by people like Kim and Yoon, Korea natives fluent in Japanese who are able to connect with both sides.
Yoon, 86, with a genteel mien and impeccable style, grew up under Japan’s colonial rule, where he recalls being forced to bow east to the Japanese emperor every day and sit with his arms raised in punishment for speaking Korean. His father-in-law spent nearly eight years in prison for pressing for Korean independence. “I learned Japanese to fight the Japanese,” Yoon said.
But then, he said, his heart softened after a Japanese military doctor came to his village and labored to cure the local people of tuberculosis, even spending his own money on medicine for them. That, along with Christian teachings of forgiveness, compelled Yoon to work for reconciliation today.
Kim, 38, is a Christian minister and social worker who was born in Seoul and raised in Japan by his missionary parents. He arrived in Los Angeles in 1999 to work at the Little Tokyo Service Center.
But even though Kim glides easily between the Japanese and Korean languages, his own psychological journey between the two cultures hasn’t always been easy. As a Korean in Japan, he said, he always felt isolated. Yet when he returned to South Korea for compulsory military service at 23, hoping to find a full sense of belonging, he said he was derided as a “half-Jap,” beaten up and verbally abused every day in the army. The experience alienated him from his own culture and sharpened the divide he said he felt between his Korean heritage and Japanese upbringing.
{snip}
On the Japanese side, Kimie Takahashi has plunged into Korean-Japanese activities as a student in Yoon’s Korean class, a member of a joint “better relations” committee and a contributor to the “Bridges” newsletter. {snip}
The three friends, who communicate in Japanese, have had to navigate some touchy issues that began surfacing after more Koreans started moving into the towers about five years ago. Although Little Tokyo Towers has always had some multicultural residents, including Koreans, Chinese and African Americans, the population had been overwhelmingly ethnic Japanese since its development in 1975 by four Japanese American organizations.
Today, however, about one-third of the units are occupied by residents of Korean heritage, according to a Little Tokyo Service Center survey. Kim said more Koreans are moving to Little Tokyo because senior facilities in Koreatown are overcrowded, and despite historical tensions with Japanese, Koreans feel more comfortable in an Asian environment than a white or Latino one.
Contentious times
The facility’s shifting demographics have raised hackles among some Japanese Americans. The Rev. Noriaki Ito of the nearby Higashi Honganji Buddhist Temple, a towers board member, said he has fielded complaints from some community members accusing the facility’s management of taking bribes to move Koreans up the waiting list—accusations the board investigated but found groundless, Ito said.
{snip}
The growing complaints soon reached the ears of Kim and others at the service center. At monthly meetings with the facilities’ leadership, the subject of the Korean influx would come up repeatedly, according to Evelyn Yoshimura of the service center.
“It was very ugly,” Yoshimura said. “People would tell us we have to take a stand against Koreans and do something or they would take over.”
The service center decided to do something—but not what exclusionists had in mind. Two years ago, it sponsored a series of four films, two Japanese and two Korean, to share cultures and bring residents together. {snip}
Meanwhile, Yoon and others had started a “Good Neighbors” group of Korean residents in Little Tokyo Towers to help smooth over conflicts. Among other things, they began the joint karaoke nights, learned basic Japanese phrases and published an in-house newsletter asking Korean residents not to leave jars of kimchi outside their doors because Japanese weren’t used to the smell.
Yoon went further, growing vegetables such as shiso, or chrysanthemum leaves, for Japanese residents who like to cook with them. He recently began offering the Korean-language classes, drawing a dozen students.
{snip}
But the emotional highlight so far has been the harmony concert organized last summer by Kim and sponsored by a Japanese church association. The concert featured Japanese and Korean traditional dance and music, an Asian American jazz group and three emcees speaking Japanese, Korean and English. Kim, putting on his pastor’s hat and using the parable of the Good Samaritan, delivered a sermon about crossing boundaries to be caring neighbors.
{snip}
The tensions have not entirely disappeared, and bilateral politics can easily cause tempers to flare anew. After Japan made what South Korea viewed as provocative statements last summer over disputed islets known as Takeshima or Tokdo, for instance, one Korean musician scheduled to perform at the harmony concert angrily pulled out.
{snip}
Original article
Email
Teresa Watanabe
at teresa.watanabe@latimes.com .
(Posted on February 24, 2009)
Comments
Many Europeans from different countries have traditional ethnic tensions, Swedes with Nowegians, Swedes and Finns, English and French, to say nothing of the Balkans… but put any of them in a New World big city like LA and they forget about their more petty differences, they see the color of their skin and their features as more alike than unalike and their cultures as more generally related.
No surprise there.
I can only speak for Germany or maybe Europe, but give us a Japanese for every Muslim and I’ll stop complaining and worrying about this continent’s future tomorrow.
Amazing how Japan gets away with it, must be because they’re so distant both culturally and geographically, we don’t apply our own standards (or those imposed upon us by the media, rather).
Among the young born here, east Asian ethnicity matters little. Asian-American is a real identity to them; so too is Hispanic for younger U.S. born mestizos. Race trumps all else in mixed race settings. We ignore that fact at our peril.
The white race is the only one without proper standing in the minds and hearts of its peoples. To declare yourself European-American is still to be on the fringe, if not over the edge, according to the arbiters of social grace.
Japanese behaviour during WW II makes the idea of an “Asian Community” along the lines of the EU almost impossible. Even today in Korea and the Phillipines people have hard feelings towards the Japanese.
There are probably some exceptions but I believe there is still a reservoir of bad feeling towards the Japanese,especially amongst Koreans. I know Koreans who will NEVER drive a Japanese car, on principle alone.
This article assumes that the colonizing and overrunning the U.S. by immigrants is normal. I consider this Liberal attitude far more important than the imported squabbles this article hypes about. Normal people do not consider the loss of their territory to be normal; they consider it a catastrophe.
“…delicate when it comes to Japanese and Koreans, whose motherlands are burdened with a long history of conflict stemming from territorial disputes and historical grievances”
One of the hallmarks of western civilization (and the high cultures of the east) is that nations can fight over any number of issues but remarkably, when the fighting is over, they can become, if not fast friends, respectful and tolerant.
This characteristic is absent in the same people who fail to advance.
I would like to see the creation of an East Asian Union (EAU) between Japan, Korea, China and Taiwan. All of them are 1st world countries with the exception of China. But China is currently being built up, and when it becomes fully developed, there will be a drop in the number of its citizens who emigrate. As the article shows, pan-Asianism is possible and should become more viable in the future as time heals old wounds. I say good for them.
Yellow Man at 7:42 PM on February 24 wrote:
“Even today in Korea and the Phillipines people have hard feelings towards the Japanese.”
There has never been any love lost between the Japanese and the Koreans. Ironic when you consider how closely related these two peoples are to each other.
http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455/
The contempt most Japanese still hold for Koreans, while not “officially” sanctioned, nevertheless seems to be passed down from one generation to another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFH5UmX5D-0
The following is taken from a tv show in Japan where an academic laughably tries to justify Japan’s invasion of Korea prior to WW2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JHeghTfaVU&feature=related
The Koreans (both North & South) on the other hand, seem bent on inculcating a vitriolic hatred of everything Japanese in their young.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=39
The only thing that keeps South Korea and Japan “allies” is a mutual fear/mistrust of China and their dependency upon America. Otherwise they’d probably still be killing each other openly.
I don’t know much about Koreans hating the Japanese, but I will tell you for sure that LOTS of Chinese REALLY hate the Japs. The Rape of Nanking was 73 years ago, but to the Chinese, it might as well have been yesterday. Go on Chinese forums where they talk about Nanking and watch the Chinese nationalists rant and rave, “Kill the Japanese! Drop atom bombs on them!” It’s pretty scary to watch.
I’ve been told that no Asians really like the Japanese. Also no Asians really like the Chinese either, but for different reasons. China is like the 800 lb gorilla and everyone is scared of them. There is also some Filipino and Vietnamese anti-Chinese stuff that I don’t really understand. Japanese just have a history of acting bad and feeling superior.
Hmmm, I don’t know enough about Koreans to have an opinion. Good for them, I guess. I seems like the majority of white people from different countries get along in the states. Germans, French, English, Italians, etc. may have differences over there, but do just fine over here.
I agree with Robert Lindsay. Most mainland Chinese immigrants, dislike Japan and the Japanese. I think the exception are Chinese from Taiwan, who don’t feel much hostility toward Japan. The Japanese behaved better in Taiwan than mainland China during World War II.
Most Koreans aren’t hostile to Japanese in my experience. Strangely, it is the blacks I’ve talked to that do not like Koreans. I guess something about the Korean family work ethic, or “lack of respect” (according to these blacks) that cause blacks to dislike them over other Asians. I don’t share their opinion.
Europeans who have hated and killed each other for hundreds of years back in Europe seem to get along quite well in America. Serbs and Croats in the old country have been at it for about 500 years now, but in places like the mid west they seem to have no problem. Same with Catholics & Protestants in Ireland. It is a big deal over there no problem over here. This reinforces my theory that but for the racial divide America would be as close to a paradise as you could get. The racial problem in this country can’t and will not ever be solved without separation. Just think America’s crime rate minus minority committed crime would be on a par with Switzerland or Beligum.
>>>>>>>Amazing how Japan gets away with it, must be because they’re so distant both culturally and geographically, we don’t apply our own standards (or those imposed upon us by the media, rather).
In Toronto, the young Koreans and young Japanese people have great relationships… there are a plenty of young Japanese people who came to Toronto to learn English for a year or two.
I am quite surprised that most of them can speak Korean moderately!! The young Japanese people also enjoy a variety of Korean foods, and young Koreans dig famous Japanese foods.
Of course, young Koreans are very aware of what happened during the 2nd world war, (but young Japanese people aren’t aware of what happened during WW2) but young Koreans in Toronto does not feel it’s necessary to hate young Japanese people who did not do a thing wrong.
So they get along in LA in spite of serious national loathing of each other in Asia; why should this come as a particular suprise? Ethnically Russian and German whites in the US get along quite well, in spite of the bestial cruelty those nations inflicted on each other in Europe six decades ago. Ethnic Celts in the US make a show of disliking the English, but nobody really minds them (and my own mother is actually an Anglophile; she subscribes to “Realm” magazine.)
I’ll bet the high-school in this area has never had to be “locked down” due to Japanese-Korean riots; civilized people simply behave differently than mestizos, blacks and Muslims.
I’ve been told that no Asians really like the Japanese. Also no Asians really like the Chinese either
A bit of an absurd observation. The vast majority of Asians are Chinese or Japanese. And Malays and Indonesians widely admire Japan (many were in fact pro-Japanese stooges in WWII - preferring Japan over Western colonial overlords.
Most people here won’t believe me, but I will say it anyway - I know for a fact that there is very little ill-feeling towards the West and in fact a great deal of respect for the West - even in China.
The nationalist fury that gets whipped up, rightly so in my opinion, is largely defensive against hypocritical Western preaching- when Westerners lecture China on human rights, Tibet, Taiwan etc. But these issues have nothing to do with Western interests - so whites should just shut up about them.
Many Chinese, myself included, will bring up past imperialist atrocities - but only in response to Western attacks against China. If whites attack China, then it is natural that a Chinese person will point out the Western record in China.
Chinese nationalism is defensive, and of all races, the Chinese have the least desire for conquest. But when pushed we are very capable fighters (as are most Asian races). And we will be the power of the future. But not a bullying, imperialistic power. So Westerners, and other peoples can relax.
To follow up on my comments, I used to hang around Koreatown for years in LA. They don’t mind Whites there, but I was mostly there to try to meet women. You can do ok there because a lot of Korean women want a White guy.
Anyway, I could not believe the number of young Korean women I met there, when I asked them their ethnicity, they said, “Korean. Japanese. Japanese. Korean. What’s the difference?” I took it they were some sort of Korean/Japanese mix? I don’t get it, are these the Koreans from Japan, or did the Japanese soldiers “mix” quite a bit in Korea? Anyway, I never got any hostility from them re: Japanese.
I know some Filipinos and they have nothing against Koreans or Japanese. There are lots of Koreans and Japanese in Manila to learn English, maybe because it’s cheap?
I’ve also known quite a few Japanese, mostly women (I’m an Asiaphile). Supposedly they look down on other races, but they never brought it up with me. Maybe they think it’s rude to talk about it with a White?
How much Japanese immigration to the U.S. is there? Not business people and their families on a long term assignment for Toyota, but immigrants? The Japanese I know are all 3rd or 4th generation Americans, assimilated, and have nothing against Koreans at all. This sounds more like a case of Koreans getting along with Americans who look like them.
How much Japanese immigration to the U.S. is there?
—
Japanese people currently emigrate to the states at the rate of people from Germany, France, etc.
There are indeed Japanese immigrants to the US. Come visit Gardena, California sometime. At least 25 years ago, there were lots of new Japanese immigrants, and more coming all the time. A finer group of immigrants you could never meet.
To John Liu (Chinese): Non-Japanese Asians don’t like Japanese. Non-Chinese Asians don’t like Chinese. That’s clearly what I meant. But you knew that.
The reason why Japanese and Koreans are getting together now is because there are so few of them compared to the Hispanics. After the Rodney King riots most of the Koreans left Koreatown to safer pastures outside the city of Los Angeles. The Hispanics moved in there and today Korean’s are a minority in Koreatown. Same for Little Toyko. Once the aging Japanese population passes, there will be very few younger Japanese remaining. The Koreans are move in filling the void but the Hispanics again are right behind them.
re John Liu at 8:42:
…China’s having deep respect for the West doesn’t change the fact that Chinese have a very strategic, game-playing mindset. They may not be bullying or imperialistic, but do not have Western interests in their hearts. Business negotiations with (Mainland) Chinese can be hell. Read *The Asian Mind Game* (forgot author’s name; it’s by a Chinese-American management consultant).
Perhaps if we were all trained in game theory, and all of us thought naturally in terms of strategies, coalition-forming, and when it may be optimal to break coalition—if we took these things as naturally as brushing our teeth in the morning—we would be better accepting of and more understanding of Asian ways, with less pain.
“They may not be bullying or imperialistic, but do not have Western interests in their hearts.”
Sure - they will do what is best for China - as every other country does what is best for themselves. That is whay America has hundreds of military bases all over the world and is shooting up civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.
China at least builds railways, builds up infrastructure in third world countries without bullying foreign peoples into regime change and insulting local customs.
When the Chinese build railways and other infrastructure in third world countries, it is to make the extraction of local resources easier for the Chinese, not to help the locals.
All over SE Asia, the Chinese are hated as outside exploiters, because they are.
There are certainly problems on the ground between the Malays and local Chinese. But the indigenous Malay views China, the country, the government in quite a positive light. The fact that there are problems between Malays and Chinese in the same country is a different matter.
Some South East Asians, will resent the rich Chinese businessman, perhaps even hate him, but at the same time, from an Asian racial perspective, applaud the rise of China, and the dimunition of American and Western power.
There is in fact still a great deal of internationalist idealism in China, but the feeling is that unlike before, it helps to be first rich yourself, in order to help others. As a patriotic Chinese myself, I do sincerely hope and would like to see all people live good lives - black, white, yellow or whatever. This of course is a mindset alien to the majority of Amren posters.
As for the strong ruling the weak or exploiting them - that is the view the West used to subscribe to - but not China. Chinese have a unique sense of honor - expecially in foreign affairs, from Chairman Mao right down to our current generation of leaders.
Our current crop of leaders are extremely competent - all engineers, Hu Jintao has supervised the design and construction of major hydroelectric dams, - in fact all ten members of the ruling politburo are engineers - intelligent, practical and pragmatic people.
Compare this with your leaders - all waffling ideologues with backgrounds in sociology and litigation.
The East wind will prevail over the West wind. But fortunately the East will not seek to dominate the West in the way that the West formerly dominated the East.
“All over S.E. Asia, the Chinese are hated as outside exploiters, because they are.”
Some Chinese apparently believe that China practices a kinder, gentler, imperialism, and that all the little brown peoples look up to them. That sort of immature, ignorant arrogance what happens when history serves the State, when “educated” people are not taught to view themselves as other might.
John Liu at 5:18 PM on February 28 wrote:
“As for the strong ruling the weak or exploiting them - that is the view the West used to subscribe to - but not China. Chinese have a unique sense of honor - expecially in foreign affairs, from Chairman Mao right down to our current generation of leaders.”
Yeah, right. China’s entire history is one of the haves exploiting the have-nots for their own benefit, just like everywhere else. Unlike here, though, it brazenly continues in China right down to this day.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IF20Cb02.html
As for Chinese leaders’ supposed “unique sense of humor”? I suppose you think naked territorial aggrandizement and the mass-murder of tens of millions of people are hilarious.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/WoW/2005/ChinaTibet2005.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/prc-vietnam.htm
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclopedia/mao-zedong
“I have nothing against China” - Posted by Schoolteacher on March 1
Schoolteacher,
I’ve seen your other posts and seriously doubt the tenability of that claim. You hype/exaggerate Chinese threat and have called them things like arrogant and untrustworthy. You say you have “nothing against them”, because you know their actions are entirely to be expected. China is largely unified and embodies many of the characteristics you wish America had. In short… You DO have something against China, it’s just hard to justify.
Just say you simply don’t like China. It’d be easier, with the added benefit of being more accurate & believable than what you posted above.
The perpetrators of that slavery scandal will most likely meet with a bullet to the back of the head if they have not done so already.
China is in the midst of rapid industrialization right now - perhaps the most rapid in all of human history - abuses are inevitable - but this is not goverment instigated - there are laws against this sort of thing - if difficult to enforce in remote areas.
When America was at a similar stage of development the same sort of thing was going on with massive use of child labour and sweatshops at the beginning of the 20th century - only this was legal then. England of course had the same thing during the industrial revolution.
As for Tibet, Tibet is as legitimate a part of China as Virginia the US. This is of course not the position of just the Chinese but of every single Western nation in the world. In fact it was the position of the US well before communist rule and was the position of the anti-communist Chinese government in Taiwan.
China’s invasion of Vietnam speaks nothing of a desire for territorial aggrandizement - all nations have had flare ups with neighbours over territory or other matters - China of course did not kill well over a million Vietnamese civilians or Iraqis as did the US.
As for Chairman Mao - perhaps the greatest figure of the 20th century - widely admired in China. The Chinese, supposed victims of Western alleged genocide at the hands of Mao, strangely seem to admire him. And many who lived during Mao’s time are of course alive now. What does that tell you Anonymous?
Then why haven’t the Reds who were responsible for so many millions of deaths presented themselves to be publicly executed?
In 1949 the life expectancy in China was 35. Illiteracy was at 80percent. When Mao died in 76, life expectancy was almost 70 and literacy rates was over 90percent.
Noam Chomsky commented on a study by the Indian economist Amartya Sen comparing ‘democratic’ India with communist China: “He observes that India and China had “similarities that were quite striking” when development planning began 50 years ago, including death rates. “But there is little doubt that as far as morbidity, mortality and longevity are concerned, China has a large and decisive lead over India” (in education and other social indicators as well). In both cases, the outcomes have to do with the “ideological predispositions” of the political systems: for China, relatively equitable distribution of medical resources, including rural health services and public distribution of food, all lacking in India.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
And of course the fact that so many Westerners are now so fearful of a resurgent China, whereas only 50 years ago China was the sick man of Asia with British warships cruising up and down the Yangtze bombarding recalcitrant villagers, shows that Mao did at least something right.
I don’t agree that Mao deliberately murdered 10’s of millions of people. If you add the good figures up, it looks like the figure is a lot less than that.
The Fun Gong site is a good source for accurate information.
Adding up their figures, I get 10,151,652 killed by Mao from 1949-1976. The number may well be higher than that, but we just do not know.
The Famine in the Great Leap Forward was terrible, and probably 15 million died at least, but it was not intentional. They were not intentionally killing people. No one really knew what was going on. It’s not like in these other places, where there is potentially plenty of food to go around, but the state just refuses to distribute it properly. It was more manslaughter and criminal stupidity than anything else.
Mao set a record for doubling life expectancy in the shortest period of time. The death rate was lowered by about 70% from what it was during the Republican era. So Republican China was killing an average of 3X more Chinese every year than Mao was.
Mao was definitely a killer all right, but if you accept the Biggest Murderer That Ever Lived thing, then you also have to accept that he was the Greatest Humanitarian That Ever Lived.
“Our current crop of leaders are extremely competent …”
All you need to know about Liu or any “Chinese-American” is that when they say “we” or “our” they mean Chinese. Every one of them is a fifth columnist.
I shall rephrase my statement, Roulette: I don’t have anything against China, other than the fact that they are not us. I feel the same way about Japan, India, and the Moslem world. I have no desire to confront China, or challenge their views on Tibet, or Taiwan. I don’t like some things that their culture values, as I expect they don’t like some things that my culture values.
Chairman Mao the “greatest figure of the 20th century”?
Surely you jest. The man was a pedophile. That’s right; he liked adolescent girls.
The Biggest Murderer That Ever Lived was not Mao, nor Stalin (and Hitler was a piker compared to those two.) It was Ghengis Khan.
John Liu at 11:58 PM on March 1 wrote:
“When America was at a similar stage of development the same sort of thing was going on with massive use of child labour and sweatshops at the beginning of the 20th century - only this was legal then. England of course had the same thing during the industrial revolution.”
News flash: the Industrial Revolution began in England (and quickly spread to America). The abuses there, while not excusable, are certainly more understandable given the time period. There were no child labor laws yet. By the way, England was the first place where they were passed.
“As for Tibet, Tibet is as legitimate a part of China as Virginia the US.”
Please! Native Virginians are of the same ethnic/linguistic stock as the rest of the original 13 states (English-speaking Northwestern Europeans). Virginians VOTED to be part of the United States. Tibetans are an ethnic group genetically distinct from Han Chinese and speak their own language. Nobody ever asked them if they wanted to be part of “Greater China.”
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/45/abstract
“China’s invasion of Vietnam speaks nothing of a desire for territorial aggrandizement - all nations have had flare ups with neighbours over territory or other matters - China of course did not kill well over a million Vietnamese civilians or Iraqis as did the US.”
China’s invasion of Vietnam was not a “flare up” over territory, but a naked desire to bring Vietnam “into the fold,” so to speak. China didn’t kill a million Vietnamese for the simple reason Vietnam humiliated the PRC, who turned tail and ran.
“As for Chairman Mao - perhaps the greatest figure of the 20th century - widely admired in China. The Chinese, supposed victims of Western alleged genocide at the hands of Mao, strangely seem to admire him. And many who lived during Mao’s time are of course alive now. What does that tell you Anonymous?”
It tells me several things:
1) You are obviously a Maoist, i.e. a Chinese Communist
2) As such, whatever you say must be taken in that context
3) You make numerous assertions, but offer nothing in the way of evidence to back them up. How are we supposed to know Mao is “widely admired in China”? Says who? China’s totalitarian rulers?
“In 1949 the life expectancy in China was 35. Illiteracy was at 80percent. When Mao died in 76, life expectancy was almost 70 and literacy rates was over 90percent.”
Or at least, that’s what China’s rulers claim. I take their claims with the same grain of salt I take Fidel Castro’s (and Michael Moore’s) claim that Cubans have a higher avg. life expectancy than Americans.
Finally, Deng Xiaoping, in modernizing China’s economy (and armed forces) undoubtedly had a lot more to do with China’s new muscle than Mao ever did.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9702/19/deng.world.reax/index.html
Surely you jest. The man was a pedophile. That’s right; he liked adolescent girls.
What a load of rot. Not even his worst detractors claim that. A complete figment of Michael C Scott’s febrile imagination.
Mao had many lovers, as did JFK and other US presidents. However he never killed any off to shut them up - unlike JFK a la Marilyn Monroe.
Hitler of course killed many more people than Stalin - not just 6 million Jews but millions of Gypsies, slavs and other undesirables. And he did start a war resulting in over 60million deaths. Surely if Mao’s deaths, through incompetence, are used to define his evilness, then excess deaths, military or not, caused by starting a world war should then be attributed to Hitler.
As far as pedophilia goes - it is almost uniquely a white crime.
Whites amuse me. They invaded the entire world in the 19th and 20th centuries, forced their way into other peoples homes quite uninvited and now are aghast that they find themselves shoulder to shoulder with non-whites. It could be argued that non-whites, or any non-indigenous people for that matter, do not belong in Latvia or Sweden. The UK, US, Canada, Australasia - an entirely different story.
Sinophobia, racism, or ethnocentrism are simply attempts to use guilt to persuade Whites to hand over the keys. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/2813630/China-threatens-%27nuclear-option%27-of-dollar-sales.html
John Liu at 12:07 AM makes our case for us. He speaks for a unassimilable, hostile, minorlty, unflinchingly loyal to their own racial kin, and contemptuous of their hosts. He announces the right of his race to come and live among us, and threatens us if will won’t go along with our own subordination. As Mr Liu is an admirer of Chairman Mao, we can guess that he wouldn’t mind breaking a few tens of millions of White eggs. I don’t think that the 19th century author of the Chinese Exclusion Act could say it any better.
The abuses there, while not excusable, are certainly more understandable given the time period.
Native Virginians are of the same ethnic/linguistic stock as the rest of the original 13 states
As for the rest of my assertions, they are well established and widely known by anyone familiar with China. I suggest you go down to the university closest to you with Chinese students and deface a portrait of Mao or slander him in some other way. Then wait for the student reaction.
Deng Xiaoping was also a great man - but he could only build up a country which had first kicked out the imperialists, established and fortified its independence against both US and Soviet interference - that was Mao’s great contribution. Other Chinese leaders would have been quite comfortable for China to remain a Soviet satellite - not Mao.
“The only way to reverse the situation is physical ethnic cleansing - which of course will be violently resisted.”
Why shouldn’t we resist the ethnic cleansing of ourselves by non-whites?
John Liu at 12:07 AM on March 3 wrote:
“Mao had many lovers, as did JFK and other US presidents. However he never killed any off to shut them up - unlike JFK a la Marilyn Monroe.”
Aside from the ludicrous prattle of conspiracy-mongers, what real evidence do you have this alleged crime ever occurred?
“Hitler of course killed many more people than Stalin….”
What a marxist lie! While it could be cogently argued Hitler would have killed many more people had Nazi Germany won the war, the consensus among real historians (not neo-marxists) is that Stalin murdered far more than Hitler.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=7900
“And he did start a war resulting in over 60million[sic] deaths.”
So we keep hearing. Yet the Asian phase of WW2 (between China & Japan, two yellow nations) actually started in July of 1937.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761571429/Sino-Japanese_Wars.html
Who started WW2?
“As far as pedophilia goes - it is almost uniquely a white crime.”
Another marxist lie!
http://www.olavodecarvalho.org/traducoes/pedophilia.htm
http://www.utopia-asia.com/korlife2.htm
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/pedochin.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon
“Not surprising as the most infamous pederasts of all times were of course the Greeks and Romans.”
Only because the bulk of pedophiliac literature that has been printed in the Orient (which is immense) has never been translated into English.
You responded to Michael C. Scott and Schoolteacher’s posts, now try responding to mine (I’m Anonymous at 9:04 PM on March 2).
Anonymous at 9:10 PM on March 3:
Aside from the ludicrous prattle of conspiracy-mongers, what real evidence do you have this alleged crime ever occurred? None whatsoever. But saying this is no more ludicrous than Michael C Scott saying Mao was a pedophile.
the consensus among real historians (not neo-marxists) is that Stalin murdered far more than Hitler. http://www.finrosforum.fi/?p=183
Surely if Stalin was as bad as made out in the West, the people who would hate him the most would be his purported victims - the Russian people?
The fate of Europe under Nazi-control would have been far worse than anything that transpired under communist rule. Communists kill to establish and protect their power. After that things settle down - as was the case with the Soviet Union and China - unlike Nazis who kill because certain groups are simply born undesirable.
Yet the Asian phase of WW2 (between China & Japan, two yellow nations) actually started in July of 1937. OK - point taken - Hitler started the war in Europe which took 41million lives. So I suppose to Anonymous, that means he is ony two-thirds as bad as he would have been had the true toll been 60million lives.
As for pedophilia, surely even you yourself know you are being ridiculous. You provide a link to:
(3) this is the worst one. This article is obviously written by some Chinese sicko who wants to present pedophilia as almost normal. What he says has about the same veracity as a Howard Zinn history of the US, Afro-centrist history or gay claims that everyone is a closet homosexual or one-in five men or one in ten men, whatever is gay. Surely even yourself reading this disgusting article would not trust its absurd claims.
(4) Japanese do seem to have a penchant for some sick stuff -but in print only - but what is the actual incidence of Japanese pedophilia? I would guess that it more than Korean or Chinese but far far less than Westerners. Note that Japanese comics are exceedingly violent and sick - but their society is very safe. I have not heard cases such as the notorious Belgian pedophile rings, the Austrian monster who kept his daughters in a dungeon as sex slaves. In SE-Asia it is almost exclusively northern Europeans and Australians who go for the kids - rarely a Japanese and never a Chinese or Korean.
(5) In the west, whites are overrepresented in child pornography and pedophilia related crimes in the same way that blacks are overrepresented in rape and robbery and Asians in gambling. Please find a case of an Asian pedophile in the West, or even a black pedophile - there would be some, but very rare.
Now here are some links that very accurately (I know because I know Chinese) describe Chinese aversion to sexual perversity and homosexuals:
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2001/Oct/21394.htm http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article767059.ece
The world’s pedophile rings are European controlled and of course the largest purveyors of child porn in the world today are in Russia and Eastern Europe.
Pedophilia is a white man’s disease.
The “Stalin killed more than Hitler” lie was already getting started even before Hitler started killing. A fake genocide called the “Holodomor” was invented by the Nazi William Hearst along with German Nazis in the Nazi regime. This lie said that Stalin created a deliberate famine in the Ukraine that killed 4,6,8 however many million. There was no Holodomor. It never happened. There was a largely natural famine in the Ukraine and all over Russia that killed 3.5 million people - 1.75 million in the Ukraine.
Fake pics of this famine were distributed all through Nazi Hearst’s papers. These pics were taken many years earlier in a famine in 1921. Visitors to the region were sometimes unescorted and reported tight supplies but little obvious starvation of malnutrition. Most died of disease, as sanitation was still poor at the time at modern medicines were few.
The Ukrainians themselves had taken up arms and tried to starve an entire nation. If they starved, they starved themselves to death. The Ukrainians killed 50% of the livestock in the USSR. This fed back into the famine, as there was a lack of horses to plow the fields. Furthermore, the Ukrainians destroyed much of their own crop, burning fields, leaving it in the fields, or harvesting it and leaving it in piles to rot in the rain. The Ukrainians took up arms against the state; at one time there were 20 armed attacks a day occurring. They destroyed farms, killed pro-USSR Ukrainians and raped women all across the Ukraine. They also attacked Soviet farms to destroy crops. There was a ferocious civil war in the Ukraine for a while there.
As a result of all this and due to a horrible wheat rust epidemic the area, there was a famine harvest in one year. The harvest simply failed, that is all there is to it. Yes people starved, but the Ukrainians were trying to starve an entire nation of 120 million human beings by destroying all the animals and crops. Which would have been worse.
In the course of the war, 20% of Ukrainians were transferred to Siberia, and 390,000 died. If you want to call 390,000 dead a genocide, be my guest. But the Ukrainians were trying to 120 million dead. Which is worse.
Peacetime deaths for Stalin from 1921-1953 equals 2.5 million. That’s quite a few and you are welcome to call it genocide if you wish. However, this is over a 32 year period. Hitler and the Japanese fascists started a war that killed 60 million people.
The following are totals for deaths under Stalin:
Executions: 900,000
Please note that 900,000 of the gulag deaths were just criminals like robbers, murderers and rapists. That’s 35% of Stalin’s deaths right there.
That Stalin killed 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 110 million (whichever lie you choose) is one of the biggest and most unchallenged lies of the 20th century. The last figure, 110 million, is from the fascist Solzhenitsyn, a darling of the West. Robert Conquest, an agent of the CIA and MI5, was instrumental in the dissemination of these lies.
“The consensus among historians” is nothing more than a lie. It’s not the consensus among Sovietologists at all.
The figures for deaths under Stalin are from the Soviet archives, which were opened by Gorbachev in 1990. The debates continue in the historical journals to this day. The Soviets wrote everything down, even to the last death.
The Ukrainians that speak of the fake “Holodomor” today are the heirs to the Nazis who started the Holodomor Lie in the first place. Ukrainian nationalists or Banderists are really just Ukrainian Nazis. They almost all supported the anti-Soviet, pro-Nazi guerrillas in WW2 and they support them to this day. The deaths in the fake Holodomor were upped to 6 million and then to 8 million after the toll of the Holocaust became clear. Reason being to show that the Holocaust (Ukrainian Nazis support this) was no big deal and Hitler is better than Stalin.
Further, the USSR killed 89% of the Nazis killed in WW2 and lost 27 million. Uncle Joe really did save not only Europe from the Nazi barbarians, but the entire West and possibly the world. In WW2, Uncle Joe was on the side of the angels. This war really was humanity (including USSR) versus the Orcs (Nazis).
RJ Rummels, an ultra-radical rightwing nut, is one of the biggest liars on the Earth today. His lies are urgently in need of being disputed.
Perhaps it is my age. I am no longer shocked by pointless cruelty, only disappointed. When I read of a couple Blacks who murdered an old White couple, drove off in their Winnebago, and called all their friends on the dead man’s “car phone”, as they were known at the time, I was more amused at their stupidity that disturbed by their crime.
Another thing about RJ Rummel: formerly he did not attribute the purported 30 million (actual about 15 million) excess deaths of the Great Leap Forward to Chairman Mao, on account that they were obviously non-deliberate.
But then he reads Jung Chang’s ridiculous tome “Mao - the unknown story” - a book that reads like a giant lurid tabloid article. Real China scholars have roundly panned the work - “the ‘facts’ in The Da Vinci Code are about as reliable as those to be found in…Mao: The Unknown Story.” , “reads like an entertaining Chinese version of a TV soap opera.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_The_Unknown_Story
Yet Rummel on reading this one dubious source, changes his mind and swallows the fiction that Mao deliberately engineered the deaths. So Mao is now awarded the number of 76million deaths! Rummel is obviously just mad-keen on pushing the numbers up and up, regardless of any real sort of evidence.
Anonymous: You ignored one claim of Rummel’s which is about right- the 50 million deaths to ‘colonial’ democide. The Belgians themselves caused about 10 to 15 million deaths in the Congo - proportionately a greater and faster rate of killing than anything even claimed for Stalin and Mao.
Yes, Mr. Lindsey, Stalin saved the West, but he didn’t do it on purpose.
The “Stalin killed more than Hitler” lie was already getting started even before Hitler started killing. A fake genocide called the “Holodomor” was invented by the Nazi William Hearst along with German Nazis in the Nazi regime.
These people in a similar way blamed Chairman Mao for 27 million deaths of the total 76 million claimed for him - by simply assuming a figure for prison inmates and applying a yearly death rate (apparent) from Soviet prison camps in the 1930s, multiplying this figure by the 27 years Mao was in power and hey presto - Mao is a tyrant who killed 27 million Chinese people - worse than Hitler!
John Liu at 1:28 AM on March 4 wrote:
“What is the consensus of most Russian historians? Surely they would be the people best placed to understand their own history?”
Unless of course, they live under a government that has historically “discouraged” its people from freely discussing its history.
http://cpj.org/reports/2006/11/russia-murders.php
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=30218
“And if Stalin is so bad, why is there still widespread admiration of him in Russia today?”
Again, given the political climate, how do you know there is “widespread admiration of him in Russia today”? Do you and Robert Lindsay truly believe Russian society is that transparent?
“And Putin himself, a very popular leader, has said Russia should not be ashamed of its Soviet past”
Putin’s popularity seems to be waning now that Russia’s economy is tanking out. By the way, Vladimir Putin was a high-ranking member of the secret police in the Soviet state before its collapse in 1991. Why shouldn’t he be extolling its “virtues”? Do you honestly believe he’d “come clean”?
In response to Mr. Putin: No, you just invaded much smaller countries like Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, etc. and ruthlessly crushed any resistance to your hegemony.
“As for pedophilia, surely even you yourself know you are being ridiculous.”
I know no such thing. Your attempts at intimidation using ad hominem argumentum have failed miserably.
1) this article was not “rambling or incoherent.” Rather it was an example meant to debunk your thesis that only Whites are pedophiles.
2) pedophilia is mentioned in this article (3rd paragraph). I suggest you read it again.
3) again, you resort to ad hominem argumentum when you cannot argue the FACT there are Oriental pedophiles, as article #3 clearly illustrates (and YOU just admitted, thereby contradicting your earlier contention). Point made; case closed.
“Japanese do seem to have a penchant for some sick stuff -but in print only”
Your argument is going down in flames, fast. Sorry.
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/japan_46426.html
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20080324-55791.html
“Now here are some links that very accurately (I know because I know Chinese) describe Chinese aversion to sexual perversity and homosexuals”
#1 I know Chinese, so what does that prove? Do you know millions of Chinese?
Now it’s my turn. The first link you provided only shows the “offcial” attitude towards homosexuality (pedophilia is not mentioned in the article, btw). You are intelligent enough to know that what people say and what people do are often two different things. Example: President Ahmadinejad of Iran stated in a speech at Columbia U. a few months back there were no gays in Iran (then his office quickly backpedaled when he became a laughingstock). Did you believe him?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/11/aide-ahmadinejad-meant-t_n_68033.html
The second link only proves the government of China is opposed to homosexuality (again, pedophilia is not mentioned in the article). Nazi Germany was opposed to homosexuality btw, despite the fact gays were previously allowed to “play their wares” in the Weimar Republic. As I showed you in a previous post, gays and pedophiles were at one time more open in China than they are now (at least among the upper classes).
“The world’s pedophile rings are European controlled and of course the largest purveyors of child porn in the world today are in Russia and Eastern Europe.”
As for your latter assertion: references please?
“Please find a case of an Asian pedophile in the West, or even a black pedophile - there would be some, but very rare.”
Convenient and nice. You set it up so that any links I post you can immediately dismiss as “rare.” Orientals are still a small demograpic here in America (compared to whites, blacks and mestizos), so any crimes they commit would seem “rare” unless you can find statistics (on child sex crimes) compiled by race, which I have not done yet. Here are some links.
http://www.jtf.org/america/america.black.pedophile.minister.murders.white.teenager.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pedophile-rings-in-black-towns—minister/2006/05/16/1147545326470.html?from=rss
“Pedophilia is a white man’s disease.”
I already debunked that (thanks in part to you).
Robert Lindsay at 4:27 AM on March 4 wrote:
“RJ Rummels, an ultra-radical rightwing nut, is one of the biggest liars on the Earth today. His lies are urgently in need of being disputed.”
Your post was filled with inflammatory accusations, ad hominem argumentums (and no references). Given your admission that you’re an “Asiaphile” and your obvious radical politics, your views on this matter must be taken in that context.
Pedophilia a “white” crime? Astonishing, looking at the rates of child and baby rape in Africa. The British in India outlawed child marriage (7-12) because so many little girls were being brought to the missionary surgeons with terrible injuries. The obsession with extremely early marriage is legendary and for a long time, immutable, among Hindus. Among Muslims, marriage is possible from age 9 on for a girl.
Anonymous: Even Robert Conquest now admits that there was no Holodomor (deliberate famine), and he’s one of the ones that started the lie in the first place.
Ah, references. You asked the wrong person.
For more on the Holodomor Lie (deliberate genocide by starvation), see:
Coplon, Jeff. January 12, 1988. In Search of a Soviet Holocaust . The Village Voice. Douglas Furr’s website.
Coplon, Jeff. March 1988. Rewriting History - How Ukrainian Nationalists Imposed Their Doctored History on High School Students CAPITAL Region. Douglas Furr’s website.
Davies, R. W. and Wheatcroft, Steven G. 2004. The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 . New York: Palgrave Macmillan.
Souza, Mario. Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union . North Star Compass website.
Tauger, Mark B. 1991. The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933 . Slavic Review 50:1, pp. 70-89.
Tottle, Douglas. 1987. Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard . Toronto: Progress Books.
For the Stalin Killed 20-110 Million Lie, the latest figures from the Soviet archives, unveiled in 1990 and which Sovietologists have been going over with a fine toothcomb ever since, which show 2.5 million deaths from 1921-1953, see:
Getty, J. Arch, Ritterspoon, Gabor T. and Zemskov, Viktor N. 1993. Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-war Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence American Historical Review 98:4, 1048-49.
Souza, Mario. Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union . North Star Compass website.
As I said, the debate rages on today in the history journals, and you’re invited to peruse them as I have. Basically, it’s Conquest and his crowd sticking to their 20-60 million guns and Getty and the rest taking the 2.5 million stand. There’s really no consensus yet, and debate rages on and on.
On the contrary, consensus among historians and Sovietologists seems to be gelling that there was no Holodomor (deliberate genocide by starvation), just a famine harvest and a resulting famine. Note that even Mr. Conquest has signed on. The Ukrainians and the ignorant masses carry on, but that’s to be expected. As in many cases, scholarly consensus has yet to filter down to the popular level, and the US media is firmly controlled by fanatical anti-Communists who may never allowed the truth about their enemies to come forward.
Anyone who knows the first thing about China or Russia knows how popular Mao and Stalin still are. I’m not an uncritical fan of either, they were both horrible killers who killed millions of people, mostly unnecessarily. Worse, so many of those killed were Communists and die-hard revolutionaries, not even contras.
As for China, there are 1,000 open protests every day in China. Obviously, the Chinese are not arresting all of those engaging in these 1,000 protests every day. China is not a democracy, nor is their complete freedom of speech, but there are plenty of open demos about local issues and in most cases, nothing happens to them.
The present leadership has been very critical of Mao to the point where many Maoists despise them, so they are hardly averse to anti-Mao positions.
There are all sorts of anti-Stalinists in Russia and nothing ever happens to them, but Stalin is very popular across the board. Even on the far White Nationalist Right, Stalin is extremely popular (Go figure). He’s also popular on the Left.
I don’t think popularity makes you a good guy, but you’re wrong to question the popularity of Stalin and Mao in their native lands.
if you’re out to free China from the Mandarins, why rape the Mandarin’s daughters?
the post-revolutionary indiscriminate slaughters of China and the USSR are not shocking either
Sorry, but communists have killed, sometimes big time, but rarely indiscriminately. Even Rummel has admitted as much. Indiscriminate killings are what Japanese and barbarians do. Communists are more disciplined than that.
So when a Chinese nationalist says Mao wasn’t a bad guy, accept it and blow him off.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I don’t see what being an Asiaphile has to do with telling the truth about Stalin or Mao. I believe that I wrote above that Mao killed 10 million people. Yet he also saved more lives than any man in the history of the world. On the other hand, the fascists have done nothing but kill and haven’t saved a life anywhere. The real debate should be over whether it was necessary for Mao to kill 10 million people to achieve his world-shattering achievements? If breaking world humanitarian records was not possible without killing millions, was that ok? If he had not killed those people, would his humanitarian achievements have been achievable?
That’s where this debate is really heading.
I love how the capitalists love to pin famine deaths Commies. Never mind that capitalism starves 14 million people to death every year and on another scale kills another 10 million kids in various ways. Of course that inegalitarians say that’s the way the beach balls rolls and suck it up. Somehow that doesn’t count as 24 million deaths every year but Stalin’s and Mao’s famines do. Whatever.
Normally, capitalists kill with stuff like lack of food and lack of medical care, which the inegalitarians think is just peachy keen. Bullets are just one way to kill a man. You can kill a man with lack of food, lack of medicine, or a bullet, and he’s still dead at the end of the day. The dead man could care less how he got killed. If you’re gonna tally death tolls and toss in “famines”, hey, we can play that game too. Sure you want to play?
Since when is capitalism the White man’s religion anyway? What’s in it for Whites?
To Anonymous at 9:10 PM on March 4
(1) The article at the first link was completely unreferenced and made claims found nowhere else. The author of the article is an obvious crackpot - google the guy.
(2) pedophilia is mentioned in this article (3rd paragraph). I suggest you read it again.
ONE case of pedophilia is mentioned - apparently some pedophile king - but there is nothing in the article to suggest homosexuality or pedophilia was widespread - in fact the article says “There is very little mention of homosexuality in Korean literature or in traditional historical accounts.” One thing you conveniently mentioned is the article is from a website which “Celebrating 15 YEARS of Service to Asia’s Gay & Lesbian Community!” - rather like referring someone to a Afro-centrist website for proof of the multiplicity of black inventions.
(3) …you cannot argue the FACT there are Oriental pedophiles, as article #3 clearly illustrates (and YOU just admitted, thereby contradicting your earlier contention). Point made; case closed. Now you are really being ridiculous. Obviously Asian pedophiles exist - but at a much lower rate than in the general white (more specifically Northern European white) population. The article does not ring true, is poorly written and obviously polemical in style.
(4) “Japanese do seem to have a penchant for some sick stuff -but in print only” Your argument is going down in flames, fast. Sorry
The articles just proves my point. Japanese read disgusting stuff - but what is the rate of pedophilia attacks in Japan compared with the West? Furthermore the other major offender is a white one - Russia “Experts criticize Japan and Russia for being the only two countries among the Group of Eight major industrialized nations that do not explicitly ban the individual possession of explicit images of children.”
Russia is the biggest purveyor of child porn - the US the biggest customer. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/08/iwf_report/ http://www.russiablog.org/2005/07/russian_porn.php
Orientals are still a small demograpic here in America (compared to whites, blacks and mestizos), so any crimes they commit would seem “rare” There are about 10 million ‘orientals’ in the US - a large enough sample set - please find ONE case where an Oriental has been convicted of child sex crimes.
As for blacks, you find ONE case - and then have to go to Australia to make your point! Obviously it is incredibly easy to find reports of black robberies, murders and rapes - blacks are overrepresented in these areas. But pedophilia - vastly under-represented compared with whites - otherwise, again, you would be able to unearth more than one link, before having to reach out to the Australian outback to make your point.
You are obviously a Maoist, i.e. a Chinese Communist Given your admission that you’re an “Asiaphile” and your obvious radical politics, your views on this matter must be taken in that context. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
Schoolteacher “despite the fact that it is Oriental countries that allow Whites to come and have sex with their children…”
Specifically South East Asian puppet countries of the US. Not China - that type of behaviour meets with a bullet to the back of the head. And how much child prostitution, child porn and forced prostitution was there during the days of the Soviet Union? Probably about zero. Socialist countries don’t tolerate these types of perversions - capitalist countries obviously do.
Anonymous: respond to the following please:
“The FBI tells Insight that the average online pedophile is a white male age 25 to 40 with no prior convictions.” http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_8_16/ai_60100204
These US government figures clearly show massive under-representation of Asians in crimes against children:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/ncands96/figure26.htm http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/ncands96/table25.htm
The Chinese were still selling children as slaves in the early 20th century, many for sexual purposes.
Poor Chinese would sometimes sell their daughters into a rich household to be Mui Tsai, the agreement being that the child would be a domestic servant. The Mui Tsai’s bondage ended when she reached marriageable age (usually 18 years). tobeornottobe: you are making it up when you say the purpose of this trade was to provide sexual services. Please provide sources.
Obviously the Mui Tsai system while not as bad as American slavery, or even the abuse of child labour in early 20th Century America, or 1930s Shanghai by British imperialists, was a disgusting system that communism destroyed, as did the communists ban rickshaws as an abuse of human dignity (btw rickshaws are a 19th century American invention - not some longstanding East Asian tradition). And of course many of these exploiters ended up with a bullet to the back of the head.
There were many child prostitutes among the Thai and other southeast Asians, and they don’t need white customers Sorry, the customers are mainly white. http://abcnews.go.com/thelaw/Story?id=3385318&page=3
The average age of marriage and birth of first child was highest in Europe, especially northern.
I don’t know much about social history of Europe but what I do know is the lowest age of consent in the world is in that most European of places - Vatican City - 12 years. The age of consent in Spain is 13. Obviously Europeans have no cultural (or genetic?) aversion to sex with pre-pubescent girls.
—————-
As this is a race realist site, with an emphasis obviously on discussing genetically determined (as opposed to culturally determined) modes of behaviour between various races, the best way to perhaps compare ‘orientals’ with whites is to observe them in a similar social and economic environment. We can more or less do this by looking at ‘oriental’ behaviour in Western societies.
It has been shown by ‘race realist’ authors that orientals in the West first have sex at an older age then whites, have less sexual partners, overall lower crime rates - especially sexual and violent crimes and are vastly underrepresented in child abuse, sexual or otherwise.
Again refer to this table:http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/ncands96/table25.htm
Asian Americans are 5 percent of the US population, et commit only 0.7 percent of child sex abuse. Whites commit these crimes at a rate approximately commensurate with their percentage of the overall population.
Thus it can be strongly argued that East Asians, on average, are less prone to pedophilia than whites, and that a randomly selected white man is seven times more likely to sexually abuse a child than a randomly selected East Asian man.
Sorry. Case closed.
Most Asian crime is in-group, and the victims don’t go to the cops, so they don’t show up in national statistics. That’s been true in this country since the late 1800s. There is a cultural aversion to washing their dirty laundry in front of the White neighbors, and the criminals know that if they stick to their own, the authorities will never know. But actually, they do, the clues are there, cops know the smell of crime. Are the Asian gangs just a bunch of boys out to have fun, do they just build tree houses and light firecrackers?
Anonymous: thanks for those completely unsubstantiated comments. It shows that you do not have an argument.
I don’t doubt that Asians in this country commit less crime per capita than Whites. Like I said, the US immigration policy selects for intelligence among them, so that makes sense.
“the six Northeast or East Asian nations (China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore) all have IQs in the range between 105 and 108. The 29 European nations all have IQs between 92 and 102” from The Wealth and IQ of Nations
The IQs of Asian Americans of 106 is thus about the same as average IQ in their respective home countries. So your point is wrong. Even if Asian immigrants were randomly selected - they would still outperform whites in the US in respect of academics, but underperform in respect to crime rates.
it is absurd to believe that a race that has demonstrated conclusively in the last century a capacity for slaughter equal to any other race on Earth, is somehow much less violent and degenerate than Whites.
You are obviously a race realist so I am surprised you made this statement. A race’s capacity for warmaking and great slaughter and carrying out extremely unethical actions a la the Holocaust, is an entirely separate issue from their capacity for living in an organized society. It also does not necessarily correlate with things like sexual perversity or violent crime.
The Japanese and Germans committed bestial crimes during WWII, but both these peoples have demonstrated the capacity to live in very well organized, polite societies, with very low crime rates.
The Spaniards butchered the Incas and enslaved blacks and Indians - extremely unethical - I am sure you would agree, but that does not mean the conquistadors were criminally inclined or sexual perverts.
The Chinese and Russian communists obviously killed many people after their respective revolutions, but these were discriminate killings with a clear aim in mind. While highly immoral, unethical, the organizers of these killings would no doubt have had high IQs and perfectly capable of living and succeeding in most societies.
So your argument that because East Asians have demonstrated capacity for great slaughter, they are just as criminally inclined just does not hold water.
Most criminally inclined killings are for instant self-gratification, mostly with no clear long term benefit to the criminal.
This is altogether different from the organized killings of Germany, Russia and China.
—————
Anonymous has provided no real evidence to disprove my assertion, but simply hypothesizes that this difference is due to under-reporting of Asian crime.
Perhaps this is an area for further research by the likes of Lynn, Rushton et al?
Some of the Asian posters here remind me of Jehovah’s Witnesses coming to my door to argue scripture. Chapter and verse, Rubenstein said this, Mao said that, as if anyone should accept at face value the opinions of Rubenstein and Mao. How in the world would anyone named Rubenstein know the average IQ of a billion Chinese peasants? Zero credibility.
According to the “evidence” presented by the Asian supremicist, the average IQ for Europeans ranges from 92 to 102, which gives a White average of 97, whereas the East Asians have an average IQ of 106, a difference of nine points on the IQ scale. That is not plausible, given the respective achievements of the two races. He would have it that Asians have nearly as great an intellectual advantage over Whites as we have over Blacks.
If pedophilia is a “white” crime, Mr. Liu, why does so much Japanese pornography depict the female participants dressed up in schoolgirl uniforms? Are you suggesting that this material is produced only for export, and that there is no domestic demand for it?
While child sex-tourism by Western whites is despicable, do you imagine that there is also no domestic demand for sex with young girls in places like Thailand? I suspect the problem with white men there arose because until relatively recently it was tolerated by the locals. One can, after all, attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. Nobody is going to spend thousands of dollars on airfare when he can easily obtain the same end with a short car trip across town. What you have inadventantly shown us is that the societies whites have produced are noteworthy precisely because they have criminalized sexual exploitation of minors.
Anonymous is half-right about IQs. Northeast Asians do in fact have a slightly higherr average IQ than whites, but the bell curve for them is steeper and narrower. They not only produce fewer idiots than whites, but also fewer geniuses. We see the same effect when white men are taken separately from white women; white women have a steeper, narrower bell curve than men; the men reach the heights and plumb the depths, IQ-wise. It appears that the accomplishments of a society as a whole rest in large part on its geniuses. Where was the Chinese Aristotle, her Galileo? Her Newton? Her Mozart? Even in the case of political leaders, I wouldn’t trade a Frederick the Great, a Theodore Roosevelt or a Winston Churchill for ten Mau Zedongs.
To Anonymous:
How in the world would anyone named Rubenstein know the average IQ of a billion Chinese peasants?
My source is the National Policy Institute, the link to the home page is provided at the top left hand corner of the webpage you are now reading.
the average IQ for Europeans ranges from 92 to 102, which gives a White average of 97
Did you pass statistics 101? range of European national IQ averages is between 92 and 102. This is not the same as saying the white average is 97. Given the article did not mention from which countries these figures came from, nor obviously the populations of these countries, we cannot on this data alone assume anything of either average white IQ or median white IQ - although this information of course is readily available from the work of world-leading researcher in this area, Richard Lynn.
From Lynn’s work low scoring countries include Ireland (93 - perhaps something behind those jokes of dumb Irishmen afterall?), Greece (92), Bulgaria (93), Greece (92), Croatia (90), Albania (90), Romania (94). ‘Middling’ European countries include Belarus (96), Spain (97) and Russia (96). The smartest Europeans are Italians (102). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality
If you trust their figures for white-black IQ differences (and the work of Lynn is frequently referenced by ‘race realists’), it would be inconsistent on your part not to trust their figures for yellow-white IQ differences.
All these citations remind me of a college paper.
That is rich coming from someone who obviously does not understand statistics and repeatedly falls into the trap of the genetic fallacy.
Mr Scott:
why does so much Japanese pornography depict the female participants dressed up in schoolgirl uniforms?
As far as I am aware, these magazines are of teenage girls, not pre-teen, pre-pubescent girls. Weird to be sure, and as I have said Japanese men read weird things, but this does not necessarily translate to actual attacks on women or children.
While child sex-tourism by Western whites is despicable, do you imagine that there is also no domestic demand for sex with young girls in places like Thailand? I suspect the problem with white men there arose because until relatively recently it was tolerated by the locals.
The main reason is simply poverty. The same reason why countries like the Czech republic now have a similar problem, and why sexual slavery and child prostitution have become major problems in Eastern Europe. http://www.eubusiness.com/news_live/1166932802.23/ http://www.voices-unabridged.org/format/creat_ss_format.php?id_ss_article=180
When placed under horrible, povertous circumstances, whites will behave no better than non-whites.
What you have inadventantly shown us is that the societies whites have produced are noteworthy precisely because they have criminalized sexual exploitation of minors.
Excuse me, but sexual exploitation of minors in China is punishable by death, and in fact many people have met with a bullet to the back of the head for these types of crimes. It is indisputable that the communists wiped out prostitution during the first four decades of rule.
I hardly think there is a country in the world where sexual exploitation of minors is not criminalized - including those countries in South East Asia.
Vatican City, for so long the arbiter of Western norms of behaviour has an age of consent of 12.
Note again that in Maoist China, Soviet Russia, prostitution, child prostitution, pornography - ‘normal’ or otherwise was virtually non-existent.
Russia is now a major supplier of child porn, with an exploding HIV problem second only to Africa- the blessings of free-market capitalism.
Northeast Asians do in fact have a slightly higherr average IQ than whites, but the bell curve for them is steeper and narrower. They not only produce fewer idiots than whites, but also fewer geniuses.
This is an old canard floating around WN circles. I have previously challenged people to provide sources to verify this claim. No one has so far. Can you Michael C Scott?
I wouldn’t trade a Frederick the Great, a Theodore Roosevelt or a Winston Churchill for ten Mau Zedongs.
Apart from Frederick the Great, the latter two were pretty hopeless - Roosevelt was just an adventurer, fired a couple of shots in the Spanish American war to earn the credentials of war veteran, Churchill was another inadquate man who sought adventure to compensate for his self-image as a weakling. The Gallipoli campaign was a total disaster. His only real achievements was a handful of inspiring speeches in WWII. These do not make him a great man.
Mao came from nothing, built up an army, led the legendary Long March, fought the Japanese, routed the Nationalists, defeated the Americans in Korea, inspired and aided the Vietnamese liberation struggle and inspired revolutions, many successful all over the globe. A military, political genius - and a great writer, calligrapher and poet to boot.
Without Chairman Mao, the West would not fear China the way they now do.
The Long March
The Red Army fears not the trials of the March,
Mao Zedong
Sorry folks. The East Wind will prevail over the West Wind.
I am not a statistician, but I was once a US Census enumerator, and was once in the service. Data is often guessed at, paperwork gets faked. In the real world, many people take shortcuts. I know better that to believe that something called the National Policy Institute knows the average IQ of Chinese peasants. Really, how could they? There is no reason to believe that statisticians are any more honest than lawyers or commissars.
But I am not fool enough to think that the Irish have an average IQ of 93 while Chinese have average IQs of 106. Ireland would not be so prosperous if it were so.
That is ridiculous Mr Anonymous. Most people, I am sure, know of people who have been underperformers, and people who have been overperformers in respect of their god-given talents.
And the same applies to nations and races. China is way way less prosperous than Japan. Yet Chinese and Japanese are of similar racial stock and test to a similar level on IQ tests.
If there was an exact correlation between economic performance and IQ, as you seem to imply, Japanese, based simply on their technological and economic performance, would then outperform Chinese by at least a standard deviation on these tests - and Oprah Winfrey must be smarter than Einstein.
The West doesn’t fear China even now, and while Mao was the right man at the right time, Chiang would have accomplished much the same thing. What China needed was any stable government, peace with her neighbors, and foreign investment. A billion people willing to work for low wages are bound to produce a prosperous export economy. We’re seeing much the same result with India now.
Who’s money do you think drives the Chinese economy? Hint: that money isn’t from Latin America or Africa.
When observed reality doesn’t match the figures, the intelligent, creative person looks elsewhere. The well-drilled automaton insists that reality conform to the figures.
The figures can be questioned and can be argued over, but in the end if the math is correct we may have to accept that our intuition does not always lead to the truth. We believe relativity and quantum mechanics because we trust the math - not because their concepts make intuitive sense.
A well drilled automaton will insist that reality conform to the figures, that the Irish are nearly as mentally inferior to the Chinese as Blacks are to Whites, 13 points on the IQ scale.
If half or more of a nation’s people are unable to learn first year algebra or read at an adult level, which is what an average IQ of 93 means, they will not reach the Western European standard. They will be more like Mexico, at best.
Greece and Turkey have very similar IQ levels (as would be expected) - 90 and 92 respectively. They do all right. Ireland is of course dragged up by the rest of the European Union.
regardless of what a Mr Lynn or his Chinese disciples might think, the Irish have proven that they are not dumb.
The work of Mr Lynn has been plugged by this websit several times:http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/06/richard_lynns_t.php http://www.amren.com/ar/2002/07/ http://www.amren.com/ar/pdfs/2006/200602ar.pdf
His credentials look pretty good to me. There could be an anomaly to the Irish results - why don’t you email him and find out? Here is his website: http://www.rlynn.co.uk/
I’ve heard that Catholics underperform compared with Protestants by almost a standard deviation - but am not sure about this.
You can email me if you find out anything about this. I am interested to see whether the Irish truly are ‘thick’ or not.
The West doesn’t fear China even now, and while Mao was the right man at the right time, Chiang would have accomplished much the same thing.
Chiang did all right in Taiwan - but ruling a place of about 20 million, and with US aid (China was blockaded by the US, and also Russia after 1960) is quite a bit different from a country of 800 million (as it was in Mao’s time).
Who’s money do you think drives the Chinese economy?
Who is going to China now, begging the Chinese to help the world out of a recession, issues such as ‘human rights,’ Taiwan and Tibet quitely dropped? Both sides could hurt the other. But there would be little point to this for both sides.
We’re seeing much the same result with India now.
When railroads were starting to link America’s cities, a quarter of the Irish population starved to death and another quarter fled to the US.
See - it is not just non-whites who flee to other countries in great numbers. Irish were obviously the Mexicans and Haitians of a century and a half ago. Back in those times, most of the posters here would have been part of the ‘know nothing’ party.
However bizarre relativity may be to most people, it was intuitive to Einstein. A friend of his actually did the math for him.
