Study Traces AIDS Virus Origin to 100 Years Ago
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AP, October 1, 2008
The AIDS virus has been circulating among people for about 100 years, decades longer than scientists had thought, a new study suggests.
Genetic analysis pushes the estimated origin of HIV back to between 1884 and 1924, with a more focused estimate at 1908.
Previously, scientists had estimated the origin at around 1930. AIDS wasn’t recognized formally until 1981 when it got the attention of public health officials in the United States.
The new result is “not a monumental shift, but it means the virus was circulating under our radar even longer than we knew,” says Michael Worobey of the University of Arizona, an author of the new work.
The results appear in Thursday’s issue of the journal Nature. Researchers note that the newly calculated dates fall during the rise of cities in Africa, and they suggest urban development may have promoted HIV’s initial establishment and early spread.
Scientists say HIV descended from a chimpanzee virus that jumped to humans in Africa, probably when people butchered chimps. Many individuals were probably infected that way, but so few other people caught the virus that it failed to get a lasting foothold, researchers say.
But the growth of African cities may have changed that by putting lots of people close together and promoting prostitution, Worobey suggested. “Cities are kind of ideal for a virus like HIV,” providing more chances for infected people to pass the virus to others, he said.
Perhaps a person infected with the AIDS virus in a rural area went to what is now Kinshasa, Congo, “and now you’ve got the spark arriving in the tinderbox,” Worobey said.
Key to the new work was the discovery of an HIV sample that had been taken from a woman in Kinshasa in 1960. It was only the second such sample to be found from before 1976; the other was from 1959, also from Kinshasa.
Researchers took advantage of the fact that HIV mutates rapidly. So two strains from a common ancestor quickly become less and less alike in their genetic material over time. That allows scientists to “run the clock backward” by calculating how long it would take for various strains to become as different as they are observed to be. That would indicate when they both sprang from their most recent common ancestor.
The new work used genetic data from the two old HIV samples plus more than 100 modern samples to create a family tree going back to these samples’ last common ancestor. Researchers got various answers under various approaches for when that ancestor virus appeared, but the 1884-to-1924 bracket is probably the most reliable, Worobey said.
The new work is “clearly an improvement” over the previous estimate of around 1930, said Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in Bethesda, Md. His institute helped pay for the work.
Fauci described the advance as “a fine-tuning.”
Experts say it’s no surprise that HIV circulated in humans for about 70 years before being recognized. An infection usually takes years to produce obvious symptoms, a lag that can mask the role of the virus, and it would have infected relatively few Africans early in its spread, they said.
[Editor’s Note: The abstract for the article “Direct evidence of extensive diversity of HIV-1 in Kinshasa by 1960,” by Michael Worobrey, et al., can be read here. The full text is available in HTML and PDF documents and can be downloaded from the page the abstract is on. There is a charge.]
(Posted on October 2, 2008)
Tissue Sample Suggests HIV Has Been Infecting Humans for a Century
Heidi Ledford, Nature, October 1, 2008
A biopsy taken from an African woman nearly 50 years ago contains traces of the HIV genome, researchers have found. Analysis of sequences from the newly discovered sample suggests that the virus has been plaguing humans for almost a century.
{snip}
In 1998, researchers reported the isolation of HIV-1 sequences from a blood sample taken in 1959 from a Bantu male living in Léopoldville1—now Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Analysis of that sample and others suggested that HIV-1 originates from sometime between 1915 and 19412.
Now, researchers report in Nature that they have uncovered another historic sample, collected in 1960 from a woman who also lived in Léopoldville3.
It took evolutionary biologist Michael Worobey of the University of Arizona in Tucson and his colleagues eight years of searching for suitable tissue collections originating in Africa before they tracked down the 1960 lymph node biopsy at the University of Kinshasa.
Drenched in glue
The samples had all been treated with harsh chemicals, embedded in paraffin wax and left at room temperature for decades. The acidic chemicals had broken the genome up into small fragments. Formalin, a chemical used to prepare samples for microscopy, had crosslinked nucleic acids with protein. “It’s as if you had a nice pearl necklace of DNA and RNA and protein and you clumped it together, drenched it in glue and then dried it out,” says Worobey.
The team worked out a combination of methods that would allow them to sequence DNA and RNA from the samples; another lab at Northwestern University in Chicago, Illinois, confirmed the results, also finding traces of the HIV-1 genome in the lymph node biopsy.
Using a database of HIV-1 sequences and an estimate of the rate at which these sequences change over time, the researchers modelled when HIV-1 first surfaced. Their results showed that the most likely date for HIV’s emergence was about 1908, when Léopoldville was emerging as a centre for trade.
{snip}
A virus ready for its close-up
However, it may never be possible to pinpoint exactly how HIV crossed from chimpanzees into humans, Hahn cautions. She and her collaborators previously tracked the likely source of HIV-1 to chimpanzees living in southeast Cameroon4, hundreds of kilometres from Kinshasa, and it is tempting to hypothesize that trade routes contributed to the virus’s infiltration of the city. But even by 1960, HIV-1 had infected only a few thousand Africans. It is unlikely that it will be possible to track down samples from the very earliest victims, Hahn notes.
{snip}
Comments
I did not realize that the CIA was at work back then; and how did they convince the Africans to eat monkeys, for heaven’s sake?
Posted by bostonian at 5:28 PM on October 2
We’re not told how HIV “jumped” from chimpanzees to humans. The politically correct theory that dares not touch taboos is that the humans consumed chimp meat. That there is a taboo theory means that I do not need to say it.
Posted by Question Diversity at 5:34 PM on October 2
If an effective vaccine that stops AIDS is developed, as Bill Gates is trying to do, the end result will be a further acceleration of the population growth rate in Africa and the rest of the undeveloped world.More will be lost than gained.Why cant these so called do gooders figure this out?
Posted by Peejay in Frisco at 6:07 PM on October 2
I think we know how HIV crossed from chimpanzees into Africans. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Posted by Unemployed WASP at 6:44 PM on October 2
Blacks will continue to claim AIDS was created in a lab by our evil Western government, intent on wiping them out. Any excuse or justification to not take responsiblity for their own actions, and to what else? Blame whitey!
Posted by at 8:06 PM on October 2
Anonymous poster wrote:
Blacks will continue to claim AIDS was created in a lab by our evil Western government, intent on wiping them out. Any excuse or justification to not take responsiblity for their own actions, and to what else? Blame whitey!
If I believed that AIDS was a lab-created conspiracy to wipe out whites, I would carry a condom at all times, and try to limit the number of times I would need to use them. Blacks here are admitting their own irresponsibility and their consummate lack of the ability of self-restraint, as a tendency. Ibid “drugs and the CIA.” The best way to defeat this “CIA conspiracy” is not to use illicit drugs.
Posted by Question Diversity at 8:29 PM on October 2
“Scientists say HIV descended from a chimpanzee virus that jumped to humans in Africa, probably when people butchered chimps. Many individuals were probably infected that way, but so few other people caught the virus that it failed to get a lasting foothold, researchers say.
Their results showed that the most likely date for HIV’s emergence was about 1908, when Léopoldville was emerging as a centre for trade.
However, it may never be possible to pinpoint exactly how HIV crossed from chimpanzees into humans, Hahn cautions. She and her collaborators previously tracked the likely source of HIV-1 to chimpanzees living in southeast Cameroon4, hundreds of kilometres from Kinshasa, and it is tempting to hypothesize that trade routes contributed to the virus’s infiltration of the city. But even by 1960, HIV-1 had infected only a few thousand Africans. ”
…………………………………
This hypothesis about AIDS’ possible origin in chimpanzees is only speculation, of course, not established fact so far as I know. But blaming chimps is at least politically correct and is permissible. The actual truth could be worse. There’s another intriguing possibility that strikes me - one which is absolutely not allowed to be mentioned today.
The Congo River, the Heart of Darkness written about by Joseph Conrad, was at that time known for its active commerce in human flesh — a nasty fact fully documented in the report produced by Sir Roger Casement in 1904. Today, given independent African governments and delicate African sensibilities, the subject of cannibalism (even worse than slavery) has been glossed over and is no longer mentionable. But I have to wonder if there could be any connection between it and AIDS. It’s a thought. They certainly fall within the same time period, and the same place. And AIDS has some characteristics akin to other similar diseases found among cannibals in New Guinea, for example. Just a thought. But a forbidden one. No funding would be given to such a study, and if it were done it would be ridiculed and squelched, its investigator professionally destroyed.
Posted by ghw at 9:37 PM on October 2
Bestiality as the root cause cannot be ruled out either.
Posted by A Swain at 9:40 PM on October 2
Chimps and humans share much DNA so must be alike in many, many respects. Kinshasa, capital of the ‘democratic’ republic of congo, obviously has quite a history when it comes to the treatment of chimps and small humans such as children, so tracing the progression of AIDS over a century should come as no real surprise. Nor should it be particulay shocking to discover that the same practices are still very much in evidence, even today. In fact, nothing much has changed over huge swathes of black africa according to recent reports and the spread of AIDS continues unabated in spite of the interference of the White world. Africa was, is, and always will be, africa.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200809300848.html
Posted by Yorkshireman at 1:37 AM on October 3
I believe that the bestiality has been suggested and discarded. You’re going to get a lot of contact with blood when you butcher a chimp. Plus there are few if any known cases of humans having sex with chimps anyway, even in Africa.
Give it a rest, guys. Reality is bad enough without grasping at straws and making things even worse.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 2:30 AM on October 3
If an effective vaccine that stops AIDS is developed, as Bill Gates is trying to do, the end result will be a further acceleration of the population growth rate in Africa and the rest of the undeveloped world.More will be lost than gained.Why cant these so called do gooders figure this out?
Posted by Peejay in Frisco at 6:07 PM on October 2
Malaria kills 1 million annually and was almost eradicated by DDT, until the illogical (?) ban on that chemical. Twenty plus years with a million less people breeding expotentially…
Feeding a starving multitude that could never have the ability or means to feed itself…So they survive, grow up, and produce the average 5.3 children each, that they can’t feed…
Seems the most necessary aid is…..birth control. Until that works, the rest is wasted.
Posted by at 11:48 AM on October 3
I don’t see why the simplest theory is not mentioned here. From this it is obvious to the most casual observer that time travel is indeed possible. It has been well documented by many reliable sources that the AIDS virus was whooped up by Ronald Reagan’s stooges at the CIA in an attempt to eliminate the African Tribes. Come on people…The simplicity of this theory is beyond reproach.
Posted by hts at 12:03 PM on October 3
I remember reading an article on AIDS many years ago that said
that the first seemingly AIDS case occured sometime in the
late sixties. A sailor was examined and had all the effects
of full blown AIDS. The doctors of the times were unable to
determine what the disease was. Subsequently the sailor died
and a specimen (skin, possibly) was taken. Many years later
doctors rediscovered the specimen and linked it to the AIDS
disease. It was not revealed where the sailor had travelled
or at least I do not recall.
Thanks
Posted by at 1:12 PM on October 3
While I firmly believe that AIDS originated in Africa, even for blacks who also firmly believe it was created by evil white scientists! By now, most of us know how easily avoidable AIDS is. Unlike the Bubonic plague, you can’t catch it from flea bites, or by having someone cough in your face. Today, it is mostly contracted through sexual contact, or by drug addicts sharing needles. No longer do innocent victims pick it up through blood transfusions. Blacks also know how to avoid it, but few of them have the self-control to prevent themselves from indulging their hedonistic whims. And when the grim statistics are presented to them, saying that Blacks are the #1 AIDS carriers allover the world. Instead of addressing their own behviorial issues, they go back to what comes naturally, blaming whites! This is why they will probably always be #1 when it comes to AIDS or HIV. The same reason they are #1 with all STD’s. They are like selfish, irresponsible, children, only concerned with what they want or desire at the moment. When their behavior backfires in their face, they look for an easy scapegoat AKA Whitey!!!
Posted by at 2:04 PM on October 3
The radio talk show host Michael S. had a good point last night. The left wants white governments to do something to “stop the spread of AIDS,” but doesn’t want government to impose morality. See the contradiction?
Posted by Question Diversity at 3:13 PM on October 3
Whatever the origins may be, the real point is to AVOID GETTING the disease. Unless you are a hemophiliac requiring regular blood transfusions, AIDS is pretty easy to avoid catching. It just involves certain lifestyle patterns. DON’T engage in these patterns, DON’T get the disease. Pretty straightforward to me. I have a HUNDRED times more sympathy for someone who CATCHES say, bone cancer, then someone who “catches” AIDS by KNOWINGLY choosing to engage in avoidable high-risk behaviour.
Posted by at 12:36 AM on October 4
The left wants white governments to do something to “stop the spread of AIDS,” but doesn’t want government to impose morality. See the contradiction?
———-
Governments don’t need to “impose morality”, only hygiene. The two are not the same. To a Moslem, if I have a glass of wine that is immoral. To a Jew, eating a ham sandwich is immoral. To a Hindu, eating beef is immoral. I don’t want to be bound to some other peoples’ notion of morality. Let’s keep morality out of it. Leave questions of morals to the churches (and other religions).
Posted by at 3:48 AM on October 4
By now, most of us know how easily avoidable AIDS is. Unlike the Bubonic plague, you can’t catch it from flea bites, or by having someone cough in your face. Today, it is mostly contracted through sexual contact, or by drug addicts sharing needles.
The disturbing thing is that I have seen this in action. I’ve been to lectures given by black South Africans who, with huge grins on their faces, tell (white) audiences that is “all the fault of apartheid” that they engage in sex with multiple partners and without condoms. Of course, the lily white guilt ridden PC audiences eat this up. Anything to blame the white man. But what this does is reinforce even more irresonsibility among black Africans.
The inevitable result will be the depopulation of Africa. In effect, black Africans are self-destructing because they play this game of blaming whites. Perhaps when the Chinese colonize Africa later in this century we shall see the final result…
Posted by Californian at 4:02 AM on October 4
I remember reading an article on AIDS many years ago that said that the first seemingly AIDS case occured sometime in the
late sixties. A sailor was examined and had all the effects
of full blown AIDS. The doctors of the times were unable to
determine what the disease was. Subsequently the sailor died
and a specimen (skin, possibly) was taken. Many years later
doctors rediscovered the specimen and linked it to the AIDS
disease. It was not revealed where the sailor had travelled
or at least I do not recall.
Thanks
Posted by at 1:12 PM on October 3
The case you refer to involves a Norwegian sailor named Arvid Noe. In retrospect, there are other cases that preceded his death that are thought to have been AIDS-related, but his was the first confirmed death by many in the medical establishment.
Unknowingly, he passed the disease onto his wife, and subsequently to their unborn child. Noe’s death in 1976 baffled doctors at the time. Sadly, his wife and nine-year old daughter both followed him in 1977.
The reason it is believed that he caught it was from time spent with the prostitutes of Cameroon, while he was employed as a trucker.
All roads in the study of AIDS seem to lead to Africa in one way or another.
Posted by ZKR at 12:36 PM on October 4
It is the intrinsic connection between AIDS/HIV and sexual promiscuity that makes it so largely a black disease. AIDS is basically an STD. Blacks are always at the very top of the charts in all categories of STD’s. So why would it be any different for AIDS?
Posted by at 3:01 PM on October 4
Californian: Africa can never be depopulated.The way they breed, the only thing that can happen in terms of population demographics is a slowdown of their population growth, or a very temporary reduction of it.
Posted by Peejay in Frisco at 3:16 PM on October 4
The usual nonsensical posts. Africans have lived in Africa much, much longer than Europeans have lived in Europe and Asians in Asia, so if the HIV virus developed in Africa why did it take so long to develop there?
Furthermore, the claim that cities built during colonial times were a causal factor in the spread of HIV is just pure speculation. If HIV is such an easily spread disease supposedly on account of promiscuity of Africans, why did it take so long for it to spread? We should note too that the “new cities argument” doesn’t hold because there were relatively large cities in Africa during precolonial times. Just to name a few: Kano, Mombassa, Ibadan, Timbuktu, Kilwa, Kumbi Saleh, Gao, etc. So why didn’t the HIV virus spread first in those areas where there were precolonial cities?
As I have mentioned before, the HIV thing is mainly pseudo-science fueled by wild speculation. See,for example, HIVskeptic.wordpress.com.
Posted by OCCAM at 5:47 PM on October 4
You’re going to get a lot of contact with blood when you butcher a chimp.
Grethe Rask was supposedly infected in the exact same way, the only difference was that she was cutting up infected humans instead of infected chimps. When you consider how much more careful a surgeon is when cutting into a live human being than a butcher is when cutting into a dead piece of meat, it becomes quite clear that the cut-hunter hypothesis is not only possible but very likely.
Posted by Travis Bickle at 6:54 PM on October 4
I remember reading an article on AIDS many years ago that said
that the first seemingly AIDS case occured sometime in the
late sixties. A sailor was examined and had all the effects
of full blown AIDS. The doctors of the times were unable to
determine what the disease was. Subsequently the sailor died
and a specimen (skin, possibly) was taken. Many years later
doctors rediscovered the specimen and linked it to the AIDS
disease. It was not revealed where the sailor had travelled
or at least I do not recall.
His name was Arvid Noe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvid_Noe
Posted by Travis Bickle at 6:56 PM on October 4
Californian: Africa can never be depopulated.The way they breed, the only thing that can happen in terms of population demographics is a slowdown of their population growth, or a very temporary reduction of it.
————————————————————————————————-
Have to disagree with that. In the last 50 years Africa has benefited enormously from western aid, with money, medical care, vaacines,a and food. Just look at how the population dramatically increased in Ethiopia following LIVE AID, many were perishing up until that point, because of the drought, and famine that came with it. As this article suggests, 50 years previously, AIDS might already existed in Africa, but had not reached the crisis point it has today. There was also no Ebola. Granted, there were other diseases like Malaria, Dysentery, and Cholera, but western aid, has also helped keep those diseases under control since then. Just look at Zimbabwe! It started off the breadbasket of Africa, and now is one of the most food deprived and disease strickened regions in all of Africa. There is no way any of them could survive without some form of AID. While I am not suggesting, that all of Africa would be wiped out entirely without help, it’s population would be significantly reduced without it.
Posted by at 7:33 PM on October 4
The usual nonsensical posts. Africans have lived in Africa much, much longer than Europeans have lived in Europe and Asians in Asia, so if the HIV virus developed in Africa why did it take so long to develop there?
———————————————————————————————
Scientists have found traces of the black plague on some mummies in Egypt. It also known that is was never indigenous to Europe, but was brought from China to Europe. Why didn’t it reach the same epidemic proportions in Africa or Asia, that it did in Europe? Several factors were involved! For one thing, over-crowding in Europe, cities like London were cramped from with poor people, and immigrants with poor hygeine. Opportunistic diseases can crop up at anytime, but gain momentum and thrive when host conditions are right. The same question could also be asked of why Polio became out of hand in the early 50’s in America? Or why the bird flu is suddenly an issue in Asia? Most contagious diseases have existed much longer than people are aware of. They usually only become known when they reach the crisis point.
Posted by at 8:18 PM on October 4
I’ll have to look at more details of this development, but I am still inclined to believe AIDS entered the human population via polio vaccines in the late 50s. Early breakouts of AIDS match the areas of polio virus administration by one Dr. Hillary Koprowski. The methods used allowed two or more strains of SIV to recombine into a version that could infect humans.
Check out the book “The River” by Edward Hooper for more details.
I have a hard time believing these two early cases, which were preserved because they were so novel, were cases of a disease that had festered for 50 years.
I don’t expect ANYONE to believe me, but there is such a thing as cover-your-rear medicine (of which these stories are an example) as well as cover-your-rear politics.
Posted by Kansas Mom at 10:26 PM on October 4
I almost have to agree with Californian. With all the alarm over millions of AIDS cases in Africa, towns full of orphans, collapsing tax revenues from lack of workers, etc., I assumed that some of the African states had begun to lose population. Turns out that they have been predicting for years that African states will lose population but they never do. My research indicated that all African states, including those most stricken with AIDS, are continuing to grow.
We aren’t about to cut off food aid anytime soon. I’m not sure what it would take to reduce the population of an African state. Even Zaire’s horrible civil war has not stopped population growth, and 3 million+ are dead.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 1:51 AM on October 5
7:33 p.m.,
Your claim that food aid, medical care, vaccines, etc.—all from Western sources—helped in Africa’s population growth in recent times is not accurate.
First, Africa was relatively well populated during pre-colonial times. As proof, consider the fact that Malian King Mansa Musa was accompanied by 60,000 pilgrims on horse and by foot to Mecca by way of Cairo in the 14th century. And towns like Timbuktu and Kano were home to thousands of people. This points to a well-fed and relatively healthy population.
Second, if Africans were not well fed and healthy in precolonial times then how do you explain the fact that millions of Africans were sufficiently health and robust to have survived the grueling Atlantic crossing the to have worked under very onerous conditions for over 250 years in North, Central and South America?
Some historians claim that the native American populations at the time were not healthy enough to withstand the heavy work imposed on them by the Spaniards—after being enslaved for over 100 years.
Note that the onerous tasks imposed on African during colonial times and the wars of resistance before colonisation led to much population loss. Consider the 8 million toll in the Congo as a result of the draconian work impositions of King Leopold of Belgium. Or the near-genocide experienced by the Herero of Namibia when they resisted German colonisation, as examples.
Posted by OCCAM at 1:31 PM on October 5
“Why didn’t it reach the same epidemic proportions in Africa or Asia, that it did in Europe? Several factors were involved! For one thing, over-crowding in Europe, cities like London were cramped from with poor people, and immigrants with poor hygeine.”
————-
Surely you’re not trying to tell us that “cities like London” were more crowded and unhygienic than cities like Cairo, Istanbul etc.!
Posted by at 1:32 PM on October 5
For once I have to somewhat agree with Occam. It is all speculation and there were black African cities prior to European colonization (but those “cities” would probably be called “villages” or “towns” by today’s standards). So much for the origin of AIDS - but, when it comes to its propagation, there is no doubt that black promiscuity is the primary cause.
Posted by jewamongyou at 5:55 PM on October 5
“I almost have to agree with Californian. [Despite their many problems], ALL African states, including those most stricken with AIDS, are continuing to grow.
We aren’t about to cut off food aid anytime soon.
I’m not sure what it would take to reduce the population of an African state. Even Zaire’s horrible civil war has not stopped population growth, and 3 million+ are dead.”
Posted by Robert Lindsay
………………………….
And I have to agree with R. Lindsay. We’re not about to cut off food aid. And we’re certainly not going to cut off medical aid. That’s just not gonna happen! The many humanitarian agencies would howl like banshees.
And Zaire’s “horrible” example is just one among so many: Liberia, Sudan, Rwanda, Nigeria, etc, etc. It seems that nothing — neither civil war, famine, drought, disease — can stop population growth in Africa! And least of all, self-discipline.
I can further add that so long as we allow their “refugees” and gate-crashers access to our countries, and shower them with benefits and sympathy, and then allow them to send billions of dollars and euros back home, their governments will never have any incentive to curb their population explosion. It’s too profitable.
Robert says he’s not sure what it would take. Well, I think I know. It would have to be a draconian and massive program of one baby per family, imposed and enforced by an authority which is unsentimental, practical, and ruthless. That seems to spell China, does it not? It certainly means not the West! Interestingly, China (uniquely) has already had experience with such a policy in regard to its own population, and would be in an excellent position to “teach” it to Africa. Or impose it, if necessary. (I am sure the Chinese - unlike Europe — will not be willing to absorb Africa’s boundless excess when they do not even want more of their own.) Otherwise, those excess millions of Africans (soon to become billions) will be a threat to world stability and peace. No great power (that is sane) can allow that.
Since Africans have proven incapable of controlling themselves, someone from without will have to impose the necessary discipline upon them. Either that, or the Malthusian law of Mother Nature will take over and will do the job the harsh way —- the way it always has since the beginning of time with species that overpopulate their territory.
Sentimentalists in the West will scream, without a doubt, but in the long run, the Chinese way will be much kinder than the Malthusian way.
Posted by ghw at 8:19 PM on October 5
“First, Africa was relatively well populated during pre-colonial times. As proof, consider the fact that Malian King Mansa Musa was accompanied by 60,000 pilgrims on horse and by foot to Mecca by way of Cairo in the 14th century.”
How does this [probably dubious] fact disprove the contention at issue, that African populations increased exponentially as a result of Western intervention? The two things are logically distinct.
Posted by Cassiodorus at 11:50 PM on October 5
Why didn’t it reach the same epidemic proportions in Africa or Asia, that it did in Europe? Several factors were involved! For one thing, over-crowding in Europe, cities like London were cramped from with poor people, and immigrants with poor hygeine.”
Surely you’re not trying to tell us that “cities like London” were more crowded and unhygienic than cities like Cairo, Istanbul etc.!
—————————————————————————————-
As I stated there were several factors at work, not just over-crowding. For one thing the rats and the fleas! Fleas die off when weather is extremely hot, or when it is very cool. In Europe, many people noticed that during the winter, the disease seemed dormant. At the time, they did not realize that fleas were helping to transmit the disease. But since springtime and summer in Europe rarely brought temperatures over 90 degrees, which kills fleas, plague episodes would kick back in again. In Egypt, intense heat is not at all unusual, but winters are mild, which would have been the only opportune time for fleas to thrive. They can’t survive in weather below 50 degrees or above 90.
Posted by at 4:51 AM on October 6
Reply to Occam;
I love the way you cherry-pick information and so-called “historical facts” to misrepresent issues about Africa. Keep up the good work. Like all blacks you have an endless capacity for rationalization and self-deception.
Posted by at 7:15 AM on October 6
TO OCCAM: Since native Africans are such a hearty lot, and perfectly capable of sustaining themselves without western aid. I think it is high time westerners stop providing them with relief. Let Zimbabweans sink or swim on their own. No more food, no more medical, and no more money to any of Africa. They are killing off whites there, especially in former white colonies, so desperate are they to overtake what the white man has built. Let them, but then let them make it on their own. I think they have become far too soft, and could never make it now. Without the white man, they will expect the Chinese to rescue them. They are weak
Posted by at 3:10 PM on October 6
I think blacks instinctively “know” that they are like mayflies and have relatively short lifespans. They live on an accellerated timetable. They sexually mature earlier than whites, and I think they have risky sexual practices because they don’t expect to live a full lifespan. They “know” they are slated to die early, so they don’t worry about trivial matters like safe sex or exercise or moderate lifestyles.
Posted by at 3:49 PM on October 6
In Africa, bestiality is widespread and growing (and caused by you-know-who!).
Now I’m not saying that the blacks had sex with simians, what if they just had sex with other animals?
In the equitorial and southern parts of Africa, there are tribesmen who have sex with goats and cows and all sorts of nasty stuff.
So the idea that HIV/AIDS originated with zoophiliacs is not so childish if you think about what goes on on the Dark Continent.
Posted by This guy at 6:36 PM on October 6
“Californian: Africa can never be depopulated.The way they breed, the only thing that can happen in terms of population demographics is a slowdown of their population growth, or a very temporary reduction of it.”
Without Western aid blacks would go nearly extinct to their “impracticle” lifestyle. Without Western protection the whole continent would be enslaved by the Chinese or AU such as they were by the Arab Muslims for many centuries, and still are in some parts today.
If the white race disappers, they will be enslaved here and Africa, or exterminated for a more favorable workable slave (such as a Mexican) which is what the North American Union proposes.
Blacks are the jackovasaurs!
Posted by Roehm at 9:30 PM on October 6
Bird flu is not suddenly an issue. All flu is bird flu, in that it originates in birds. If it jumps the species, it usully goes from birds to pigs to humans to humans. Ordinary flu. It is more dangerous to go from birds to humans. But it does not become an epidemic until it goes from human to human. So, bird to human to human is a deadly scenario, like the flu epidemic in the early 19th century.
We can’t know how long it took the HIV virus to develop. Why did it take a long time to infect so many people? Perhaps because it is not airborn.
Posted by middle-aged magnolia at 9:30 PM on October 6
“Californian: Africa can never be depopulated.The way they breed, the only thing that can happen in terms of population demographics is a slowdown of their population growth, or a very temporary reduction of it.”
Without Western aid blacks would go nearly extinct to their “impracticle” lifestyle. Without Western protection the whole continent would be enslaved by the Chinese or AU such as they were by the Arab Muslims for many centuries, and still are in some parts today.
If the white race disappers, they will be enslaved here and Africa, or exterminated for a more favorable workable slave (such as a Mexican) which is what the North American Union proposes.
Blacks are the jackovasaurs!
Posted by Roehm at 9:33 PM on October 6