Why Do Asian Students Generally Get Higher Marks Than Latinos?
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Hector Becerra, Los Angeles Times, July 16, 2008
The eight students walked into a room at Lincoln High School prepared to discuss an issue many people, including some of their teachers, considered taboo.
They were blunt. Carlos Garcia, 17, an A student with a knack for math, said, “My friends, most of them say, ‘You’re more Asian than Hispanic.’ “
{snip}
“It’s sad but true,” said Eliseo Garcia, a 17-year-old with long rocker hair, an easy manner and good grades. “I had an Asian friend, but he didn’t necessarily get that great a grades. We used to say, ‘He’s Mexican at heart.’ “
{snip}
At The Times’ request, the Eastside students gathered to talk about this touchy subject.
Lincoln Heights is mostly a working-class Mexican American area, but it’s also a first stop for Asian immigrants, many of them ethnic Chinese who fled Vietnam.
With about 2,500 students, Lincoln High draws from parts of Boyle Heights, El Sereno and Chinatown.
Both the neighborhood and student body are about 15% Asian. And yet Asians make up 50% of students taking Advanced Placement classes. Staffers can’t remember the last time a Latino was valedictorian.
{snip}
According to a study of census data, 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the neighborhoods around Lincoln High have median annual household incomes below $50,000. And yet the Science Bowl team is 90% Asian, as is the Academic Decathlon team.
{snip}
Asian parents are more likely to pressure their children to excel academically, the students agreed.
{snip}
Julie Loc, the daughter of a seamstress and a produce-truck driver, said that if she gets a B, her parents ask whether she needs tutoring. She said her father used to compare her to other people’s children, noting their hard course loads or saying, “They have a 4.3 [grade-point average]. Why do you only have a 4.0?’ “
{snip}
Many factors influence academic performance: class size, poverty, and school and neighborhood resources. But as the discussions at Lincoln show, expectations loom large.
Fidel Nava, a coordinator for English learners at Lincoln, said some Latino students say that Asians get higher grades simply because, well, they’re Asian.
“In a sense, they have come to believe that it’s OK for Asians to be smart and not for Hispanics,” said Nava, who immigrated from Mexico at 14.
{snip}
Rocio Chavez, 18, said that even though her older sister graduated from high school, their mother didn’t really expect her to go to college.
“I guess she didn’t expect that from me, either,” Rocio said. “And now that I’m going to move on to college, she’s kind of scared. She gets kind of sad I’m leaving. She’s like, ‘You’re supposed to graduate from high school, go to work and help me out.’ “
Frank D. Bean, a professor of sociology at UC Irvine’s Center for Research on Immigration, Population and Public Policy, has studied the Mexican work ethic and found that work and education occupy the same pedestal, and in some cases, work is even more valued.
Bean said his research shows that children of Latino immigrants, if they drop out of school, are more likely to be working than most other students who leave school.
{snip}
Latino and Asian families in Lincoln Heights were essentially in the same socioeconomic boat, she said, but Asian immigrants were more likely to have been more affluent and had better education opportunities in their native countries.
{snip}
A few hours after the eight students concluded their discussion, some teachers gathered in Principal James Molina’s office.
“I feel a little bit uncomfortable talking about racial and ethnic generalizations,” said Cynthia High, a 20-year teaching veteran now in charge of teachers’ aides and other programs.
“In some situations, it sparks a good conversation. In others, it’s more taboo-ish to talk about it,” said William Olmedo, who teaches AP physics.
Barbara Paulson, who coordinates Lincoln’s magnet program and teaches AP biology, said it had been understood for a long time that teachers needed to try harder to recruit Latino students for AP classes because “the Asian kids come on in droves.”
{snip}
Olmedo said many capable Latino students refused to take AP classes or join other academically rigorous activities.
Teachers said they were saddened by self-defeating attitudes.
“I think the thing I always hear from the Latino kids is, ‘Oh, well, Miss, he’s Asian, she’s Asian. Of course they do well,’ ” said Alli Lauer, who teaches English. “It’s frustrating to hear them do it to each other.”
But as one student said in a separate interview, many Latino students are responding to cues. Johana Najera, 17, said the Academic Decathlon offers a not-so-subtle cue about who belongs.
“We already know that it’s Asian, and they kind of market it more for Asians,” Najera said. She noted that the shirts for the Academic Decathlon team have a logo done in the style of anime, Japanese animation. “It appeals more to Asian students,” she said.
“I’ll send one of my [Latino] boys out just to get water, and here comes the security, ‘Please make sure you send him out with a pass,’ and I’ll say I will,” Olmedo continued. “And the Asian kid will walk around the whole campus, the whole day, the whole week, for a whole month!”
{snip}
Email Hector Becerra at hector.becerra@latimes.com.
(Posted on July 17, 2008)
Comments
Uncreative Han Chinese beating the lively, Latin culture in school? Who would have thunk that?
Posted by at 6:13 PM on July 17
Asians,specifically Chinese and Japanese,get better average grades than everyone else, including whites.A lot of other Asian groups dont. So why is anyone surprised?An Asian individual in the Bay Area a while ago explained that hispanics get lower grades because their parents place less emphasis on good grades.For that he got threats on his life.
Posted by Peejay in Frisco at 6:28 PM on July 17
Please stop refering to mestizos as Latin. Latin refers to ancient romans and their descendants…ie: Italians, Spaniards,French..etc not to mestizos in LA.
Posted by at 6:40 PM on July 17
Boy, no matter what stone you turn, it always is the same, isn’t it?
“I’ll send one of my [Latino] boys out just to get water, and here comes the security, ‘Please make sure you send him out with a pass,’ and I’ll say I will,” Olmedo continued. “And the Asian kid will walk around the whole campus, the whole day, the whole week, for a whole month!”
Everywhere you find them, Asians are high iq, high diligence, low criminality.
But even the (possibly) lower - iq security guard knows who the troublemakers are. And aren’t. T
The amusing part is the security guard, in an unguarded moment, lets drop his political-correctness guard.
This article is a useful comparison, though, regarding Asians / Hispanics, as compared to the liberal canards regarding white / black disparities. Hard to make the argument, here, that minority underachievement is due to the “white privileged” holding them down.
Posted by at 6:44 PM on July 17
Really, security notices Hispanic males walking the halls during class time? Well those who deal with facts, rather than theory, have no other option. They cannot afford the luxury of allowing likely dangerous persons to engage in suspicious behavior, their necks are the ones at risk. And everyone knows it.
Posted by at 6:47 PM on July 17
““In a sense, they have come to believe that it’s OK for Asians to be smart and not for Hispanics,” said Nava, who immigrated from Mexico at 14.”
Focusing on whether or not mestizos “think it’s OK” to be smart like Asians or whites is a pointless distraction; merely more liberal self-esteem nonsense from the Culture of Therapy. The fact is mestizos AREN’T smart like Asians or whites, and no amount of feel-good rhetoric or Obama-like uplifting “I think I can, I think I can” rhetoric can change that. Mesoamericans are The Little Engine That Couldn’t.
It’s the stupidity, stupid!
“Staffers can’t remember the last time a Latino was valedictorian.”
Well then, the racial bean-counters (no pun) will just have to mandate that there’ll be one at least every third or fourth year — regardless of whether Miguel or Consuela can write, think or speak.
Posted by The Incredible Shrinking White Man at 7:11 PM on July 17
The eight students walked into a room at Lincoln High School prepared to discuss…Carlos Garcia, 17, an A student with a knack for math…said Eliseo Garcia, a 17-year-old with long rocker hair, an easy manner and good grades…Ericka Saracho, 16, an A student, said her Latino family…
Hmmm…four Latino students and at least 3 of them are straight A students. Although this 8 student discussion group was supposed to represent the perspectives of Asian and Latino students, it’s obvious the school intentionally selected exceptional Latino kids. They picked a representable sample of Asians, but only picked the smartest and most articulate Latinos.
Why? A majority of the school’s students are Latino, and most of them get mediocre grades. Why wouldn’t the school pick a few “C” or “D” students from the Latino side, since the whole point of this discussion is the lagging performance of Latinos vs Asians?
Posted by Jill at 8:29 PM on July 17
Naw, nothing else, because anything else would be pure and unadulterated racism, RIGHT?
Ambition, drive, intelligence, family & friends & cultural encouragement… All racism!!!
H.F. Wolff
Posted by H.F. Wolff at 9:14 PM on July 17
Enlightened ‘race-realists’ understand that culture and background does play a part in intelligence along side genetics of course. The critical question is, what influnces culture in the first place? Well race does, naturally! In other words, the argument that Asians(or Whites)outperform and out-succeed say Hispanics or Blacks because of cultural differences, is itself a tacit acknowledgement of cultural superiority on the part of Asians(or Whites). And thus, racial/ethnic superiority on some level…there is no other logical explanation, no matter how many acedemics, political activists and deseprate race-deniers insist otherwise.
Posted by HH at 9:40 PM on July 17
Notice that there is no mention of a single white student at this 2500+ student high school. This is the future of America.
Posted by Kevin at 9:56 PM on July 17
It appears as if they’re in the beginning stages of racial turmoil, not yet getting too contentious, but will as time goes by and the mestizos get tired of always being behind and fully aware of it. I seriously doubt it will ever reach the black/mestizo stage, because neither group bullies the other, but they are representing different tribes and they know it. Each is fixated with its own interests as first priority.
But what I’m wondering is when these yellow journalists are going to have the same kind of story about mestizos out performing blacks in the many schools they attend together. Part of their rioting and racial clashes I’m pretty sure has to do with black resentment of being bested by yet another group academically.
Posted by ice at 10:03 PM on July 17
If we are to believe the rumours and reports, black African immigrants also have a strong desire to learn and good work ethics. So we’re told. If so, why don’t African immigrants have the same reputation as Asian immigrants? Yeah yeah, I know… they do have such a reputation - but only in comparison to American blacks. We don’t see them dominating scholastically vs. whites and Asians and I want to know how leftists explain that.
Posted by jewamongyou at 10:10 PM on July 17
To The Incredible Shrinking White Man,
Your slogan “It’s the stupidity, stupid!” would make a great tee-shirt. Or maybe a good bumper sticker, too.
People like those of us who read Amren would know what it means. Everyone else would be lost.
Posted by Reader-1 at 10:17 PM on July 17
There is no achievement gap. There is an effort gap, plain and simple. Listen to the students and security personnel. They know the truth and are less daunted by its implications than the 20 year veteran teacher who can’t bring herself to entertain the notion that academic results are the direct result of academic endeavor. Where is the great white conspiracy against minorities in this scenario? LAUSD is over 70 percent hispanic. If there is so much academic potential within this population, how is it possible to keep their performance at such low levels?
Posted by lausd teacher at 11:25 PM on July 17
I have a problem with this math; Chinese and Japanese belong to the Mongolian Race. American Indians that build an independent civilization in Center and South America are also Mongolians. So, Latin Americans are mainly a mixture of Caucasians and Mongolians, and are they inferior?
Another doubt; if non whites that speak Castilhan are Latins, why Black Americans are not Anglo-Saxons?
Posted by Latino Blanco at 11:41 PM on July 17
“Asians,specifically Chinese and Japanese,get better average grades than everyone else, including whites.A lot of other Asian groups dont. So why is anyone surprised? An Asian individual in the Bay Area a while ago explained that hispanics get lower grades because their parents place less emphasis on good grades.For that he got threats on his life.”
Thanks for your comment Frisco
Maybe the Asian individual could have chosen more polite, civil words. It is true that Asian parents do place more emphasis on the numeric results their kids bring home from school.
In East Asian countries, I notice, there is an enormous difference between having the little piece of paper and not having one. The range of careers you can choose from and the reward that your career gives you severely differ between the situation where you have one and the situation where you don’t. It is totally day and night. In North America, as long as you can do what they want, you can certainly be considered for the position they offer, regardless of whether you have the little piece of paper or not. For example, there are many language schools in Korea and the schools are only allowed to hire teachers who have the little piece of paper. I heard authorities and police officers randomly walk into foreign language schools and ask the teachers for the graduation certificate, and if the teacher cannot provide a copy of the graduation certificate to the authorities, the teacher is immediately asked to leave the school and the school gets fined. It is basically the first thing the employers look at when people apply for jobs in Korea. “Do you have that little piece of paper?”
In short, in East Asian countries, whether the person has the little piece of paper is 10 times more important than whether the person is creative or actually being able to do what the employers want. It is true.
I’m not done yet.
What the Asian person said is true, but it is not necessarily positive. It can have a negative effect. Basically in schools all over the world as well as East Asia, the ones who are good at memorizing like a tape recorder, or good at doing what they are being told to do, or good at solving math equations correctly get recognition and scholarships, instead of the ones who are creative, or the ones who look at the matter from every angle possible. In North America, whether the person is creative or what the person actually is capable of in the real world is much more important than the little piece of paper. When you apply for jobs in North America, of course there are some jobs that honestly requires you to have a degree, but as for most jobs, whether you have a degree does not matter as much as what you are actually capable of. I lost count of the people around me who have a degree from the best schools from Canada but are not able to have the job they want because they are not able to do what the employers want.
and would it be one of the reasons why the Asian person said so? I hope it helped!! I will always be here and provide as much information as I can to AmRen.
(but you did hurt my feelings a little bit that you did not mention Korea)
Posted by Korean guy currently visiting Korea his hometown at 3:59 AM on July 18
Just thought I would toss this out there since this is a WN site. Most people do not realize that Los Angeles ever had any Italian neighborhoods. It did, and Lincoln Heights was known for decades as a majority Italian neighborhood in Los Angeles. It was a beautiful neighborhood of old homes nestled up against the hills next to Dodger Stadium. I know all of LA’s neighborhoods very well, but I have been gone for 18 years, hopefully never to return.
It’s interesting that a formerly Italian-American neighborhood in Los Angeles has now gone over almost completely to Latinos and Asians, but that’s LA for ya.
You might want to Google Lincoln Heights and Italians to see what you can come up with.
Me? I think Italians are unjustly maligned. I will trade 10,000 Mestizos from my city for 10,000 Italian-Americans any day.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 5:20 AM on July 18
IQ. Nothing more. Mexicans aren’t that bad though. I think most of their lack of acheivement is due to their culture placing more value on immediate work than higher education. The unemployment rate is the lowest in the US for all age groups.
Posted by at 6:30 AM on July 18
Just thought I would toss this out there since this is a WN site. Most people do not realize that Los Angeles ever had any Italian neighborhoods. It did, and Lincoln Heights was known for decades as a majority Italian neighborhood in Los Angeles. It was a beautiful neighborhood of old homes nestled up against the hills next to Dodger Stadium. I know all of LA’s neighborhoods very well, but I have been gone for 18 years, hopefully never to return.
It’s interesting that a formerly Italian-American neighborhood in Los Angeles has now gone over almost completely to Latinos and Asians, but that’s LA for ya.
You might want to Google Lincoln Heights and Italians to see what you can come up with.
Me? I think Italians are unjustly maligned. I will trade 10,000 Mestizos from my city for 10,000 Italian-Americans any day.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 6:31 AM on July 18
It’s kind of curious that the mestizos should lag the east Asians so much given that the mestizos’ Indian ancestors came from east Asia long ago. How do American Indians generally do on IQ tests?
Posted by at 6:42 AM on July 18
Social Construction of Reality lends to the expectation that Asians will fare better in academics whilst Hispanics and Blacks will consistently fail. This is a misnomer which trends towards self fulfilling prophecy for all groups.
I happen to be asian and there were strict rules towards academic excellence in my household and in my culture. Being or acting unintelligent was ridiculed amongst my peers who are also asian. On the converse it seems as if academic superiority is to be mocked within other communities.
My fear is if this trend continues Americans no matter what race will find themselves serving the peoples of India, China, Japan, Korea
It is crucial that more emphasis be placed on education here in america. I went to school at 6 am and went home at 7 pm every day and cleaned the school on the weekends along with my classmates. Do you think we would even consider graffiti or trashing our school halls? Our teachers would pull our ears or make us stay after if we didn’t get things done. This was 10 to 12 years ago!
Posted by Asian at 7:16 AM on July 18
See, when you’re into denial about evidence put forth by the “The Bell Curve” you wonder for forever with your rudder struck on the “racism theory” (put forth by those who even deny that race is real?)
Posted by truthbetold at 8:48 AM on July 18
Some of it is genetic, some because of parental influence, some because of a good self-image, and the rest of it is because the Asians are used to succeeding on their own without special privileges from the government.
Posted by at 9:20 AM on July 18
I second that. Mestizos are not Latins, nor even really “Hispanic.”
Mestizos are mostly Amerindian (i.e. Asian), and they originally came from South Asia.
South Asians are shorter, have darker skin, and score lower on IQ tests.
Posted by Edmund Burke at 10:48 AM on July 18
Asians specifically Japanese and Chinese have to have tons of degrees before they can function correctly in the working society. They dont have the political and social prowess just like the rest of the world thus they rely on their degrees to save them from hunger. Just look at the welfare rate of the CHinese, the highest among minorities since they outnumber other races ( vietnamese are chinese too.)
They put emphasis on education, spending their welfare money on hiring tutors for the sat. Thus you would think they are smart but just well -funded.
Where do you think this article came from? From the chinese/japanese themselves, to thump their chest again and again because thats all they have.
I also think the “asiaphile” trend is fueled by a certain political group. The Chinese are very clannish people so they prod white males to like chinese women so they can penetrate the Chinese market. Since you cannot market chinese/japanese women as beautiful or graceful, thus they market them as smart, as if the other women are not smart.
DO ask any CHinese, how many welfare recipients they have.
Posted by hing hung at 11:06 AM on July 18
“So, Latin Americans are mainly a mixture of Caucasians and Mongolians, and are they inferior?”
Are there sub-groups within Mongolians?
Posted by mongolian isiot at 11:50 AM on July 18
I have checked through the list of Lincoln High schools in CA, there are quite a few of them, all of which have sizeable white student bodies. Why is there no mention of that?
Posted by ciccio at 12:13 PM on July 18
Chinese are fairly intelligent, but most people are intelligent compared to Mexicans. Only the blacks are the lowest on the intellectual totem pole.
George Manuelian
Atherton, CA
Posted by George Manuelian at 1:10 PM on July 18
Asians value education more than Hispanics and a lot more than blacks, who don’t value it at all. Maybe the Hispanics should start to learn English instead of demanding, and getting, bilingual education.
Posted by Alucard at 3:07 PM on July 18
I have come to believe it is truly a function of both nature and nuture of how a person behaves and either succeedes or fails in life. But the $64.00 Question is which counts for more and by how much. Why have I seen many families with a father and mother of the same race produce, raise, and nuture siblings at most a few years apart in age yet turn out so different as adults. Part of the answer has to be in the genetic make up of the individual But they both come from the exact same gene pool and grew up in the same household. One sibling will be a decent,law abiding, high income person and his brother will turn out to be a moronic low life criminal living in a homeless shelter. Or one will be a gifted musician or writer and the other will be a complete dolt.
So the question remains which counts for more and by how much?
Posted by Great White Observer at 3:18 PM on July 18
Jew Among You:
There hae been cases where Black Carribean and African nationalist students have been salutatorians and in some cases, valedictorians.
Some posters on this board have mentioned the fact that at gradutions they have seen caribbean saltuatorians over the past several years.
Posted by Grant at 3:23 PM on July 18
I want to correct a few misnomers here.
Amerindians score approximately 87 on IQ tests. NE Asians in US score something like 105+. Mestizos score something like 89 or so. Mestizos in California are about 45% White, 45% Amerindian, and 10% Black as a pooled group. They have gotten less White, more Indian and a lot more Black in the past decades. Amerindians do not come from South Asia. They come from NE Asia, like Koreans, Japanese and Chinese. They mostly come from the Altai region where China, Mongolia and Siberia come together. But they came a very long time ago, and underwent a lot of independent evolution in N America.
They are different racially. Whereas a NE Asian infant is placid, an Amerindian infant is so silent you might wonder if it is dead. Silent and alert, this is the Indian child.
It’s somewhat of a mystery why Amerindians score so much lower on IQ tests than their NE Asian ancestors.
SE Asians do not all have low IQs. Vietnamese have IQs of 99.5, better than most White groups.
Way more Blacks go to college than Mestizos. And Jewamongyou, Black immigrants to the US outperform all other immigrant groups including Asians on all variables, including education. When the 1965 Immigration bill passed, there was no quota left for Africans, thank God. So immigration authorities reject 99.5% of applicants (Good!) and are extremely choosy about the Africans they let in. So we get the best and brightest of Africa.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 3:45 PM on July 18
“Where do you think this article came from? From the chinese/japanese themselves, to thump their chest again and again because thats all they have.” Comment by hing hung
You clearly didn’t even read the article or else you would’ve noticed the source at the top - Hector Becerra, Los Angeles Times
Posted by at 4:09 PM on July 18
So Hing Hung, how is it you figure this article came from Asians, yet was written by a Hector Barerro?
Also, there are no stereotypes about Chinese women in particular being smart. White men like them because of their specific look, as well as their submissive nature.
Where is your logic?
Posted by Random Man at 4:37 PM on July 18
Please stop refering to mestizos as Latin. Latin refers to ancient romans and their descendants…ie: Italians, Spaniards,French..etc not to mestizos in LA.
Posted by at 6:40 PM on July 17
> You are so right. In fact, Latino is an early lost language group in the Proto-Indo European language tree that goes from Italic to Latino-Faliscan and branches off to Faliscan and Latin. From there everyone knows the story.
The same goes for Hispanic. These people are not from the Iberian pennensula. It was settled by the Celti-Iberians mixing with the present Basques, then overlaid with sparse Roman settlements followed by Germanic Vandals and then Germanic Visigoths. All that before the Moorish invasion/occupation.
New world Spanish speakers constantly attempt to parlay their identity into something higher than it is; descendants of natives who were still engaging in the most gory of human sacrificing and cannibalism by the 15th century, when the far more civilized (by comparison) Spanish arrived. I have lately heard and read these people’s new pretention to even be Fench by Latin inferrence. Never!
Posted by Whiteplight at 4:46 PM on July 18
“Me? I think Italians are unjustly maligned. I will trade 10,000 Mestizos from my city for 10,000 Italian-Americans any day.”
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 5:20 AM on July 18
What, pray tell, Robert, do you mean when you say that “Italians are unjustly maligned?” I don’t know where you’re from, but in the Midwest where I grew up being Italian wasn’t any different than being any other kind of ethnicity.
Were you aware that Lynn (I.Q. and Wealth of Nations) lists the country of Italy with an average group I.Q. of 102, the same as Germany, Poland and Finland?
Posted by ice at 6:41 PM on July 18
Townhall.com is not exactly known as a practitioner of PC. They are ostensibly a “conservative” web portal.
I throw this out because I think it will help move the debate on this thread along.
From Townhall.com blog;
“African immigrants have also been shown to be more highly educated than any native-born ethnic group including white and Asian Americans”
http://bluecafe669.blogtownhall.com/2008/05/26/african_immigrants_exceed_in_ed.thtml
I look forward to some intelligent responses…
Posted by Juan Mann at 7:06 PM on July 18
“African immigrants have also been shown to be more highly educated than any native-born ethnic group including white and Asian Americans”
Yes, of course, that’s why Haiti and Africa are such success stories. It is these same African immigrants that have enriched their homelands so greatly.
Posted by Q at 9:48 PM on July 18
Being “highly educated” doesn’t say much when your degrees come from an African university.
Posted by at 2:09 PM on July 19
I don’t know what part of Asia they came from, but your eyes will tell you that Amerindians are clearly different from Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese. I don’t think that they’ve had the time to evolve, or devolve, that much since their arrival on this continent 12 or 15 thousand years ago. I’m going to guess that the aforementioned Orientals drove them out of their original homelands in northeast Asia.
And Vietnamese have a lot of Chinese in them. I think the country is about 20% identifiably Chinese, and a lot of the rest are mixed.
Posted by Schoolteacher at 2:19 PM on July 19
I have a couple Vietnamese students, one of whom complained to me about racism. I asked her for instances and she gave me several. I asked the race of the “racists”, and she said, “If you must know, they were Mexican.” She’d been taught, like all Americans are, that racism is something that Whites do, but she’s a smart girl and a brave one too. She’ll figure it out. The animosity is there, give it time.
Posted by Schoolteacher at 2:30 PM on July 19
“My fear is if this trend continues Americans no matter what race will find themselves serving the peoples of India, China, Japan, Korea”
I don’t see how studying hard (and only that) makes a nation successful. I think whites will come around eventually. We DID, remember, produce most of the world’s science. Many of our greatest scientists were terrible students! And why did you throw India in there? They are a low-IQed country.
And to answer the questions about differences in IQ between Asians and Native Americans, you need to understand that the Native Americans have been in the Americas for a very long time and they have been shaped by its environment. They overall have IQs in the mid 80s while Eskimos have them in the low 90s (both groups are lower than whites and Northeast Asians on the IQ scale). The Americas have more resources than either East Asia or Europe, so therefore the populations had to think less. I don’t understand why more people on here don’t already know this.
And Robert Lindsay, once again you are giving Southeast Asians and black immigrants more credit than they deserve. Where do you come up with this stuff? Vietnam and the African continent are such paradises compared to Europe aren’t they?
Posted by Courtney at 2:55 PM on July 19
Robert Lindsay makes a very valid point.
I am a recently retired university professor. for seven years during my career, I was the director of the university Honors Program. It eventually became a college.
Admission to the program was very selective. A minimum of 1300 SAT’s or 29 ACT’s was required and a high school minimum GPA of 3.5.
During my seven years as director, 1993-2000 we only had 8 Black students who qualified for the program. One of the studnts actually had perfect SATs Three of them went to Ivy League schools and decided not to attned our insitution.
Of the five of that did enroll in our Honors College, three were of carribean ancestry, one was an African student from Cameroon and the other was a beautiful young lady (american) from Connecticut.
I taught English. One of the carribean students ( female) would frequently blow the other students and me away wtih her analysis on Jonathan Edwards, literature of the early romanitc period etc… For this reason I am not surprised that she is now a professor of English and comparative literature at one of the top liberal arts colleges in the nation.
African and Carribaren Blacks are very competitive whn it comes to academics. Many are just as strong, and in some cases, stronger than White students.
Posted by Roberta at 4:32 PM on July 19
“Way more Blacks go to college than Mestizos.”
You know, Robert, just about the time you begin to make some kind of sense you come up with off the wall drivel.
Mestizos out perform blacks so easily on the college level it isn’t even close. Just a search throughout the country will reveal that Hispanic professional people are about 20 times…..or more……numerous than blacks. Mexico’s average national I.Q. is 89, according to Lynn. (I.Q. and Wealth of nations.)Africa is about 70. That’s 19 points difference.
And if you want to believe that US blacks have an average group I.Q. of 85 (I don’t. I think it’s been fudged so much to favor them it’s distorted in their favor.) then you have to assume that mestizos or Mexicans in this country have likewise realized an increase as well, but what that figure might be I don’t know without researching the info, however, I’m willing to bet it’s going to be around 92. But even if the figure is just 89 it’s still higher than the black average.
And I seriously doubt your contention that “way more blacks” go to college than mestizos; however, it really doesn’t matter anyway, because blacks get in via AA and are graded via AA and are awarded certification via AA.
“And Jewamongyou, Black immigrants to the US outperform all other immigrant groups including Asians on all variables, including education. When the 1965 Immigration bill passed, there was no quota left for Africans, thank God. So immigration authorities reject 99.5% of applicants (Good!) and are extremely choosy about the Africans they let in. So we get the best and brightest.”
Black immigrants to the US might study better than their American counterparts, but they’re every bit as dumb. Don’t you understand that the best and brightest of a race of people whose group average I.Q. is about 90 to 100 if we want to be generous in estimating the figure. An I.Q. of 90-100, Robert, is hardly gifted.
Please……making these kinds of erroneous statements about African immigrants just clouds the issue, and the only people who would agree with you are the multicults who constantly try to flim flam every black figure they can to favor them.
Linking to a left wing news report is disingenuous, especially since an absolute wealth of information proves it to be totally inaccurate.
I’m sick of reading all the lies these leftists and blacks put out about some kind of favorable stats about blacks, because in every instance they’re proven as liars.
And, Robert, before you say so, blacks never built the pyramids either, nor did they invent the helicopter or the ball point pen. And every single one of their black invention claims is a myth proven to be lies by a wealth of available information.
Posted by at 9:22 PM on July 19
“African and Carribaren (sic) Blacks are very competitive whn it comes to academics. Many are just as strong, and in some cases, stronger than White students.”
Posted by Roberta at 4:32 PM on July 19
My experience has shown that there are a FEW black immigrants who do o.k., but it’s hardly anything other than an anomaly, because as a group they’re about the same as American blacks. I would say that more than probably half of them have better study habits than the blacks born here, but that doesn’t make them any smarter as a couple of posters seem to be implying.
I don’t know what it is that makes a few white people want to stretch the truth now and then to favor blacks. It must be the old affliction of altruism and naive gullibility that prompts them to do so.
Posted by Q at 10:05 PM on July 19
“SE Asians do not all have low IQs. Vietnamese have IQs of 99.5, better than most White groups.” - Robert Lindsay
People get too hung up on IQ, as there are other areas of cognitive ability that science still cannot quantify, yet, like creativity, which even Asiophiles like Dr. Lynn admit seems to be an area dominated by Caucasians of European decent, and an area in which E. Asians seem to be handicapped in comparison to whites.
However, in his remark about the Vietnamese, Mr. Lindsay is being misleading or is ill-informed. In point of fact, the IQ’s of Northern Europeans (and some E. European groups) average about 106 - 107, higher than the average of the Japanese and Chinese (which are usually exaggerated). In fact, the info on NE Asian IQ’s averaging 110 were from one bit of research that involved old, outdated tests to subjects. Btw, Ashkenazi Jews average 107.8, not the oft claimed 115 which also arose from similar circumstances.
“Kevin” remarks that no white students are mentioned in the article. There literally has not been a white student at that school in about 40 years.
Posted by Dong Blue at 12:00 AM on July 20
There have been several queries on this board as to the low IQs of American Indians and why the harsh conditions and cold climates they endured did not raise their intelligent levels as would be expected.
Here is an excerpt of Jared Taylor’s review of Professor Lynn’s book Race Differences in Intelligence :
“…American Indians are genetically related to East Asians but with a considerably lower average IQ of 86.
“…[Professor Lynn].. theorizes that the intelligence breakthroughs found in other races probably required mutations that simply did not take place in small, Arctic bands. Fortunate mutations are much more likely in large populations.
This may also help explain why North American Indians did not develop higher IQs….most of them went south before the Würm glaciation, and avoided the need to adapt to the cold.
Indians who stayed in the north had to survive the Würm glaciation, and should have been pushed towards higher IQ. Prof. Lynn speculates that like Arctic peoples, their numbers may have been too small to give rise to fortunate mutations…”
http://www.amren.com/ar/2006/06/
Bon
Posted by BonBon at 12:13 AM on July 20
“…The unemployment rate [of Mexicans] is the lowest in the US for all age groups…”
Posted by at 6:30 AM on July 18
Not true, according to “Hispanics: A Statistical Portrait”:
“..Although Hispanics have the reputation of accepting work others will not take, with an unemployment rate of 7.6 percent in 2004, Hispanics were about 50 percent more likely to be unemployed than whites…”
http://www.amren.com/features/hispanics/
BTW: You’re 100% correct about the IQ part.
Bon
Posted by BonBon at 12:23 AM on July 20
“African and Carribaren [sic] Blacks are very competitive whn [sic] it comes to academics. Many are just as strong, and in some cases, stronger than White students”
I defy you to prove this. Your own anecdote (eight black honors students in seven years, barely one per year) does not seem to suggest that these students are “stronger” than whites students.
“For this reason I am not surprised that she is now a professor of English and comparative literature at one of the top liberal arts colleges in the nation.”
All she needed for that was black skin.
Posted by Cassiodorus at 1:06 AM on July 20
I think that Blacks do go to college more than Mestizos. Mestizos totally devalue education and mostly they think college is useless and silly.
The statistics on Black Africans as our best immigrants are clear and sound. They also have the highest incomes of any immigrant group. This is because we are picking the cream of the crop of Africans, not because they are geniuses racially. I don’t know what their IQ’s are, but they have to get through the programs here in the US. The ones I have known in the US were pharmacists, physician’s assistants and nurse practitioners. They have to go through those rigorous programs in the US and they have to pass their board exams. All of those folks were very intelligent and competent.
Amerindians have evolved so much in the Americas that they are no longer in the same race as NE Asians or SE Asians. They are really a totally separate major race altogether. They came from Asians long ago, but Caucasians came from Blacks and Asians long ago = big deal.
At the time the Amerindians were coming to the Americas, there were no NE Asians as we now know them. The NE Asians were all Aborigine types. Koreans, Japanese and Chinese only went from Aborigine types to modern NE Asians 9000 years ago.
Lots of Nordicists still hate Southern Italians and say that they are not White.
IQ of Vietnam is 99.5. Check my blog - it’s on there. It’s an average to two recent studies in Vietnam. And they are heavily Southern Chinese, it is true, but so are all SE Asians pretty much. All SE Asians came from Southern China fairly recently.
Chinese women have a reputation of being very smart, and a lot of guys think they are beautiful too. They can be submissive, but they can also turn into the most evil Dragon Ladies on Earth once they start hating you.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 4:58 AM on July 20
“Yes, of course, that’s why Haiti and Africa are such success stories. It is these same African immigrants that have enriched their homelands so greatly.”
Umm, he said he wanted intelligent responses.
“And I seriously doubt your contention that “way more blacks” go to college than mestizos; however, it really doesn’t matter anyway, because blacks get in via AA and are graded via AA and are awarded certification via AA.”
Hispanics get A.A as well, and in many cases as much or more than blacks.
Here is an excerpt from a study on collegiate attendance in Texas, a state with fairly equitable numbers of whites, blacks and hispanics:
“College attendance or graduation differs by racial and ethnic group. For example, in 1995, whites were far more likely (31 percent) than blacks (18 percent) or Hispanics (16 percent) to have received a Bachelor’s degree or higher. Whites were also more likely to have attended college (65 percent) than blacks (52 percent) or Hispanics (50 percent).”
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/97trends/ea1-6.htm
“Black immigrants to the US might study better than their American counterparts, but they’re every bit as dumb.”
Then they must be studying extremely hard because all studies indicate that African Immigrants are the most educated group in America.
“Most current data suggest that between 43.8 and 48.9 percent of all African immigrants in the United States hold a college diploma (Charles, 2007; U.S. Census, 2000). This is slightly more than the percentage of Asian immigrants to the U.S., nearly “double” the rate of native-born white Americans, and nearly four times the rate of native-born African Americans”
http://bluecafe669.blogtownhall.com/2008/05/26/african_immigrants
_exceed_in_ed.thtml
“And, Robert, before you say so, blacks never built the pyramids either,”
Depends upon which pyramids.
The pyramids in Egypt were not built by blacks but very similar (and much more numerous) pyramids in modern-day Sudan were unquestionably built by blacks.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert
-draper-text.html
“This is because we are picking the cream of the crop of Africans, not because they are geniuses racially.”
I’m not aware of any IQ test given to potential black immigrants that is not administered to immigrants from other areas. African Immigrants come by just about the same paths as any others
1) Immigration lottery
2) Families already here
3) vocation that fills a need (much less likely among blacks as
there are not many universities)
4) refuges (usually poor war-torn black peasants)
“Lots of Nordicists still hate Southern Italians and say that they are not White.”
Actually, these are not ‘Nordicists’. Even Northern Italians believe this, and this ‘all whites as one’ stuff only when Europeans started into contact with blacks on the large scale. There is a saying in Northern Italian high society which translates to ‘Africa begins in Naples.’
If you had spoken to any 19th century German philosopher, he would have laughed in your face had you told him that the Hellenics, Mediterrianians, Iberians, etc. were equal to Germanic whites. It is, in so many words, modern day political correctness
Posted by at 2:24 PM on July 20
“Also, there are no stereotypes about Chinese women in particular being smart. White men like them because of their specific look, as well as their submissive nature.”
You just gave me one more reason to oppose asian immigration.
Posted by sofita at 2:38 PM on July 20
This opinion appeared today July 20 in the Press of Atlantic City.
It was written by Steve Adubato who is not known for his conservative/ right wing views. It appears that everyone is awakening to the reality that the appeasement has gone entirely too far. A high achieving Asian-American kid was rejected for admission to Princeton with no explanation given. The kid is pursuing the matter. It seems to me that being a “minority” carries certain criteria e.g. one must belong to a low acheiving non-white minority in order to be considered least for Princeton,
Short article but interesting.
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/opinion/commentary/
Posted by at 3:50 PM on July 20
“I think that Blacks do go to college more than Mestizos. Mestizos totally devalue education and mostly they think college is useless and silly.”
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 4:58 AM on July 20
Neither group will qualify as intellectual gifts to America, but mestizos out perform blacks in every way posible, whether blacks originate from Africa or the Carribean. Wishing it to be otherwise, Robert, will not make it that way. Every race on earth is more intelligent than blacks, with the possible exception of Australian Aborigines.
But if you want to ignore the testing and the academic accomplishment, just ask yourself how successful blacks are, and if you give yourself an honest answer you will realize that blacks cannot exist on a first world level on their own. Africa is a perfect example. Of course so is Haiti. How about the Carribean? They rioted a few years ago after a hurricane, looting everything they could find, running through the streets with their machetes looking for whites to kill. Bush I threatened to send in the 101st Airborn division and they backed down.
“The statistics on Black Africans as our best immigrants are clear and sound. They also have the highest incomes of any immigrant group.”
Asians have the highest incomes. Many black immigrants belong to drug gangs. The Jamaican and Haitian drug gangs are notorious. Europe has the same black immigrants you’re referring to and their black crime rate and social dependance are going through the roof. Who do you think France is having problems with right now besides Arabs? Africans of course. They can’t find work, because they don’t have anything to offer but manual labor. These average I.Q. of these people is 70. How much cream is there in a crop like that?
“This is because we are picking the cream of the crop of Africans, not because they are geniuses racially. I don’t know what their IQ’s are, but they have to get through the programs here in the US.”
We aren’t “picking” anything, Robert. Blacks are inundating our shores any way they can. Many are illegal aliens.
“The ones I have known in the US were pharmacists, physician’s assistants and nurse practitioners. They have to go through those rigorous programs in the US and they have to pass their board exams. All of those folks were very intelligent and competent.”
A pharmacy degree; a medical degree, etc. from Africa is about on the level of a high school graduate here. I’m being generous. I’ll tell you what. If you want drugs dispensed by a retard and if you want treated by a quack who just might kill you, I have no objection, but please don’t try that “they’re the cream of the crop” business. The cream of the crop is not too great if the crop is on the level of retardation.
Lots of Nordicists still hate Southern Italians and say that they are not White.
That’s preposterous. It isn’t possible in most cases to tell an Italian from any other European with the possible exception of the far north countries.
“IQ of Vietnam is 99.5. Check my blog - it’s on there. It’s an average to two recent studies in Vietnam. And they are heavily Southern Chinese, it is true, but so are all SE Asians pretty much. All SE Asians came from Southern China fairly recently.”
The difference in appearance from Vietnamese and Chinese is quite stark really, with the biggest differences coming from skin tone and height and weight. The average Chinese towers over the average Vietnamese, and is lighter. The I.Q. average of China is 100; Vietnam 89. (Lynn, I.Q. and Wealth of Nations.)
“Chinese women have a reputation of being very smart, and a lot of guys think they are beautiful too. They can be submissive, but they can also turn into the most evil Dragon Ladies on Earth once they start hating you.”
Sounds like white women to me, except for the submissive part.
Posted by at 5:07 PM on July 20
Lynn’s work is corrupt. His figures on China are wrong. He gets that figure by assuming that rural China has a much lower IQ than urban China. Southern Chinese have IQ’s of ~105 or so. Lynn can’t admit that because it screws up his whole Ice Age theory where only people in cold places are really smart. Southern China is hot, not cold, so that doesn’t work. Lynn gets his Vietnam IQ (which is not 89) by averaging China and Thailand and taking the median. He rejects some of the recent IQ studies out of Vietnam by saying that most of the kids in the studies were Chinese. If you average out the 2 recent IQ studies in Vietnam, you get 99.5.
African immigrants have higher incomes than Asian immigrants, many of whom are poor.
The Africans in the US and in Europe are completely different. Europe takes any Black immigrant that floats ashore. Here we have a huge ocean between us and Africa and it is very hard for them to get in here. I have a Yahoo group that works with people who got screwed by Nigerian scammers. A lot of these stupid women try to marry their Nigerian criminal bf’s. We talk to the US Embassy in Ghana and Nigeria all the time. They flat out told us that they deny at least 99.5% of the Nigerians who apply for visas. And that’s just visas. We’re not even talking citizenship.
You have to pass pharmacy boards in the US to be a pharmacist in the US. You have to pass the Foreign Doctor Medical Exam boards to practice medicine in the US. Both are incredibly rigorous.
I’ve been to quite a few WN websites where they hate Southern Italians and insist they are not White. I’ve even seen it on this board. It’s pretty typical Nordicist thinking.
BTW, the *children* of African immigrants in the US are also outperforming most other ethnic groups. I know they are outperfoming Whites to be sure. There are lots of smart folks in Africa. I think a few years ago, the guy with the highest IQ at MIT (180) was an African. I met an African who is a PhD professor of Linguistics at US Berkeley when I visited there a while back. I’ve seen his work. The guy’s incredibly brilliant. You can look up on the Net African mathematicians of the diaspora or some such. It lists a number of famous math prodigies in the past 20 yrs or so who came to the West from Africa.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 12:52 AM on July 21
“If you had spoken to any 19th century German philosopher, he would have laughed in your face had you told him that the Hellenics, Mediterrianians, Iberians, etc. were equal to Germanic whites. It is, in so many words, modern day political correctness.”
Posted by at 2:24 PM on July 20
If you read the comments over again I think you’ll find that nobody wrote that Germanic whites and the other ethnicities were equal. (Whatever you mean by that.)
European Caucasians inundated the Mediterranean area and North Africa beginning about 5000 B.C. in a great migration. Caucasians consist of three major sub groupings known to anthroplogists and other academics as Nordic, Alpine and Mediterranean.
Nordics in northern Europe, Alpines in central Europe and Mediterraneans in southern Europe, but today the Mediterranean ethnicity has been replaced by the infusion of many other ethnicities, so they are not the same original Mediterraneans of centuries ago. Too, it’s not accurate to believe that these groups have always occupied these areas, because much migrating and moving has occurred over the centuries. But to say that these three white Caucasian groups don’t share the same genetic traits and DNA is flat our wrong. Obviously they all belong to the same family.
Alexander the Great was a Mediterranean, (Greek. His teacher was Aristotle) and he had blond hair, as did many other inhabitants of the mediterranean did. (And North Africa. A Sumerian statue was found that had blue eyes.) Archeologists have turned up many hundreds of statuary, busts and art that depict unequivocally Caucasians. There’s one of the Egyptian Queen Nefertiti, circa 1300 B.C., that looks like any Caucasian of today in the US or Europe. The evidence is overwhelming.
Regarding slight difference in appearance of whites, (And even skin tone.) I might point out also that, blacks evidence the same slight differences in various locations in Africa as do white ethnicities, which are very evident to people who study the languages and tribes. Some blacks are slim, while others who occupy the cooler rain forest type areas tend toward obesity, then their are other tribes who are very tall, while others tend toward shortness. Besides body contour there are distinct differences in many tribes in facial construction as well. However, African pygmies have always been considered a separate race by themselves, though I don’t think they should.
So the bottom line is this: You want to denigrate those whites who are inclusive of Southern Italians, and probably Caucasoids from the Middle East as well, I suspect, by claiming they have some ulterior motive for being inclusive.
But the fact of the matter is that they’re being completely accurate. We all share similar genes and DNA, but we DO NOT do so with Africans.
Somebody even found a trace of similarity in Asians and Caucasians.
Posted by at 1:04 AM on July 21
Someone on this thread needs to point out that about half of the “Vietnamese” in America are actually “ethnic Chinese”.
One of the first orders of business for the communists in Vietnam was the expulsion of ALL Chinese!
IMAGINE THAT!
The Chinese had long been resented in Vietnam for “owning everything”. The communist victory allowed this resentment to come to the fore in mass expulsions of ALL Chinese, even if they had lived in Vietnam 3-4 generations.
The result is that about half of the “Vietnamese” in America are “ethnic Chinese”, including those in the LA Times story above. The author in the story above clearly states the “Asian” students are “Vietnamese Chinese”, as these people typically refer to themselves.
There are stark physical differences between Chinese and Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are darker and the Chinese more “yellow” looking. The Chinese are taller, in general as well. As a former resident of the San Francisco Bay Area, I can readily distinguish Chinese from Vietnamese (or Japanese or Koreans).
The “ethnic Chinese” from Vietnam are rapidly ascending in American society, while the actual Vietnamese are mired in poverty, crime and welfare.
This is no doubt a function of the differential IQ between the 2 groups.
It is also worth noting that small “ethnic Chinese” minorities(5% or less, except in Malaysia which is 1/4 Chinese) control about half of all private capital in the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Burma, Malaysia, and until the 70s, Vietnam. Of course, the natives resent this and anti-Chinese riots occur in atavistic cycles as a result. Recall the anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia in 1997.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1514916.stm
Posted by at 1:56 AM on July 21
. “There are lots of smart folks in Africa. I think a few years ago, the guy with the highest IQ at MIT (180) was an African.”
(180-67)/15=7.53 standard deviations. The calculator I use rejects any Z scores above 7. The chance of this happening is basically zero. My stat text stops at 3SDs, Other Z tables I have seen show 4 SDs having a chance of zero.
A few smart blacks, from the tail of the curve, means nada. Look at the entire sub-continent. A more pertinent question would be- what fraction of a given population has an IQ above X, say 130
Posted by belle kerve at 12:12 PM on July 21
“But the fact of the matter is that they’re being completely accurate. We all share similar genes and DNA, but we DO NOT do so with Africans.”
There is absoulutely no difference in probability of pregnancy between an interracial couple and an intraracial one. That to me suggests that everyone has practically identical genes and DNA. As a matter of fact, the high evidence of negative blood types found in Western French and the Basques makes interbreeding between these two ‘white’ subgroups with other whites more precarious than that between a Dinka tribesman and a white Swede. Not my opinion, simply a fact.
Posted by at 1:28 PM on July 21
As former class of 1994 graduate of Lincoln High I can assure that the asians(southern chinese from vietnam) in this article represents the highest achievers in this school. When I was there a select few of the asians dominated all area of higher academic life in the school-everything from participating in the decathalon to having the highest class ranks. But for the majority of the asians there, they could barely read and write correctly, struggled with hard subjects like math and science, and quite a few dropped out of high school. This article is somewhat incorrect because it misleds the reader into thinking all asians are successful in school. But as a former student I know personally that they are not.
Posted by Former student at 3:44 PM on July 21
Robert Lindsay makes some very valid points.
I do not know why some of you cannot accept the fact that there are Blakcs who are intelligent and have achieved great things!
Whether you like it or not, this is the case.
This is where we race realists differ from nordistic Whites. We acknowledge truth and do not live in a delusional world of denial.
Posted by Garrett at 3:51 PM on July 21
Doug Blue:
The better question is why are there some fellow Whites like you who seem to have this impervious mindset that no Black or non-Whites outside of a few Asians are intelligent.
To paraphrase WR the elder on a post a few months back discussing Black mathmeticians and some other academics “whether you want to admit it or not, there are some pretty damn smart Black people out there.”
Living in denial does not help anyone.
Posted by Jerry at 4:09 PM on July 21
“BTW, the *children* of African immigrants in the US are also outperforming most other ethnic groups. I know they are outperfoming Whites to be sure. There are lots of smart folks in Africa. I think a few years ago, the guy with the highest IQ at MIT (180) was an African. I met an African who is a PhD professor of Linguistics at US Berkeley when I visited there a while back. I’ve seen his work. The guy’s incredibly brilliant. You can look up on the Net African mathematicians of the diaspora or some such. It lists a number of famous math prodigies in the past 20 yrs or so who came to the West from Africa.”Posted by Robert Lindsay at 12:52 AM on July 21
Citing exceptions to the rule doesn’t prove anything other than they are exceptions to the rule, Robert. And, no, I don’t believe there was a black whose I.Q. was 180, although it isn’t impossible since there are five legged cows and other anomalies born periodically. But, even if there was, it has absolutely nothing to do with blacks generally. The group is still in the stone-age my friend.
But, as I said, if you want to believe otherwise, please don’t think I want to stop you or change your mind.
But let me point out that you never refuted one single point above that had to do with mass black failure the world over, but instead you try some flim flam approach because you want somebody to believe Africans are exceptional. It’s all nonsense and flies in the face of reality. Next, Robert, you’re going to want us to believe the Haitians are the top performing group in the world.
On the Bell Curve, blacks only go to about 122 on I.Q. and that’s a wee, tiny few of them, then their numbers just about flat line out after that.
You might want to examine your motives to try to understand why you have some kind of emotional attachment to African immigrants.
Facts, figures, experience and all the rest disprove everything you want us to believe about blacks.
African blacks have average I.Q.’s of about 70, and that’s being generous. Please…don’t give us this “blacks are really smart if they came over on the boat on their own,” business. Every black nation is an abysmal failure in almost every way.
And certainly Lynn is not 100% accurate, but none of the others are either. And Flynn is a pitiful joke.
Posted by at 5:31 PM on July 21
Some of you have stated that Amerindians originated from northeast Asia and I wanted to point out that this is false, though it has been a long held theory that most people still believe. Recent genetic studies, not only on living Amerindians, but also on ancient remains, has shown that the natives of the America are a mixture resulting from many waves of immigration from different regions of Asia and even some Ice Age Europeans. You can look at different Amerindian tribes and see distinct physical differences in height, cranial structure, and facial features. It is true that Amerindians are mainly from mongoloid stock, but there is a great deal of diversity amongst the people, which really should be expected considering the huge geographic dispersion of the race.
Also, the idea that the ancient Aztecs and Mayans were a barbaric group is really unfair. The Mayans and Aztecs had a civilization much more advanced in many ways than the Europeans had at the time of European colonization of the Americas, though they did not possess certain technological innovations. The fact they they engaged in human sacrifice is indeed barbaric, but you can compare that to the barbarism that the Europeans engaged with their mass genocide of the Amerindians. The difference between the two is that Aztecs and Mayans killed their captives after battle and Europeans were more likely to slaughter their foes in battle.
Posted by Pan Yeerum at 5:43 PM on July 21
During my seven years as director, 1993-2000 we only had 8 Black students who qualified for the program…Of the five of that did enroll in our Honors College, three were of carribean ancestry, one was an African student from Cameroon and the other was a beautiful young lady (american) from Connecticut….
African and Carribaren Blacks are very competitive when it comes to academics. Many are just as strong, and in some cases, stronger than White students.
Posted by Roberta at 4:32 PM on July 19
How can you POSSIBLY come to any conclusions about African students when you’ve had only ONE? That’s not exactly a representative sample of an entire CONTINENT, is it?
Three Carribean students in eight years isn’t representative either. You obviously weren’t a statistics or mathematics professor.
Posted by Jill at 9:43 PM on July 21
Some posters are strangely accusing others of denying black achievement. To reiterate, we all agree there are ‘good’ or ‘magic’ blacks and tend to lionize when some of these outliers achieve some fame or something. We also all agree that these are few and far between and that most blacks are in the stone age even the ones in the west. I don’t understand what the posters are arguing about, few doesn’t dispute the whole data.???
Posted by realist at 11:33 AM on July 22
“Robert Lindsay makes some very valid points.”
Robert Lindsay is an admitted communist. The basic epistemology is of Plato- the father of (philosophical) communism. There is (allegedly) a higher reality than what we see with our eyes- the famous “forms” of the good, of the state, etcetera. The way to knowledge (epistemology) explicitly is non-sensory, meaning NON-SENSE!
Valid points indeed, if one has rejected evidence of the senses as being valid!
Posted by spy v. spy at 12:47 PM on July 22
“The fact they they engaged in human sacrifice is indeed barbaric, but you can compare that to the barbarism that the Europeans engaged with their mass genocide of the Amerindians.”
Posted by Pan Yeerum at 5:43 PM on July 21
There was no “mass genocide of Amerindians.” That’s a myth perpetuated by people like you who for some odd reason have set themselves up as indiophiles who promote fallacies involving indians that are just plain inaccurate.
Indians tried their level best to completely annihilate whites in this country, and it started as attacks on innocent civilians in order to steal their goods and livestock, rape the females, taking some into bondage as slaves, and murdering all the able bodied men. The resulting white reactions were indeed brutal and far reaching, but they occurred as retaliatory actions against unspeakable crimes by a vicious, murderous enemy who had been doing the same to each other long before the white man arrived.
Bottom line. The indians tried to annihilate whites out of mostly greed and blood lust, but were themselves nearly annihilated in response to their evil deeds. Yes, there was atrocities committed by whites, but to say whites committed genocide on those primitives as if they were some peace loving group that loved mother nature is just plain wrong, and I’m sick of hearing people distort the facts.
“The difference between the two is that Aztecs and Mayans killed their captives after battle and Europeans were more likely to slaughter their foes in battle.”
Aztecs and Mayans bushwacked and raided villages often in order to get slaves and sacrifices for their alters, and standard operating procedure was to slaughter children as well.
One of the reasons the conquistadors were so successful in conquering both blood thirsty tribes is because they recruited thousands of tribesmen from the surrounding areas who despised the Mayan and Aztecs for slaughtering family members and friends, and they eagerly joined forces with the Spanish in order to get paybacks.
I find it amazing that the revisionists have made all Amerindians throughout both continents as victims, but I’m even more amazed they have people who are gullible enough to believe them.
Posted by Q at 1:39 PM on July 22
“The better question is why are there some fellow Whites like you who seem to have this impervious mindset that no Black or non-Whites outside of a few Asians are intelligent.”
“To paraphrase WR the elder on a post a few months back discussing Black mathmeticians and some other academics “whether you want to admit it or not, there are some pretty damn smart Black people out there.” Posted by Jerry at 4:09 PM on July 21
Who on here ever suggested, implied or, or denied, that there are black anomalies just as there are anomalies in everything else?
Nobody did, of course, and what you think you’re rebutting, or what kind of point you believe you are making, is a mystery to me, and probably many others as well. Frankly, it appears as if you have a problem with reading comprehension and logic both. Reread what you wrote and what the other posters had to say and see if you can better understand.
For the upteenth time, citing exceptions proves nothing except that you have cited exceptions. It doesn’t mean a general premise is incorrect.
There’s no case necessary that must be made to prove that blacks are in last place regarding intelligence of all the races, and if you believe citing exceptions to something negates that argument, well…then it seems you are in denial or you can’t understand what is being asserted or rebutted.
“Living in denial does not help anyone.”
Posted by Jerry at 4:09 PM on July 21
You mean like failing to accept the common knowledge verified by tests, experience, real life, and lack of success, that blacks are a stone-age group of people who have lived that way for thousands of years, and that people citing exceptions do not dispel those facts? Yes, that kind of denial helps nobody, especially blacks, because they keep falling further and further behind.
Posted by Q at 2:00 PM on July 22
“The better question is why are there some fellow Whites like you who seem to have this impervious mindset that no Black or non-Whites outside of a few Asians are intelligent.” Posted by Jerry at 4:09 PM on July 21
Where is that claim made, Jerry? Reference please.
If it were made, I think I can help you understand better where people are coming from. Jerry.
One of the greatest handicaps blacks have, after low intelligence, and a propensity for crime and violence, is arrogance. Because black group intelligence is so low, lower than any other group, when non-blacks come in contact with a black with an average white I.Q. of around 100, they’re struck that he’s able to understand a few things and can even string together a few words in a sentence, and because of this amazement they can’t help remarking about how “smart” the black is. Couple this reaction with the black propensity for arrogance and you have what amounts to a black person who thinks he is intellectually superior in every way.
And a black person that fits the description will constantly promote the idea that there are exceptional blacks, because he believes he needs to do so in order to honor himself, burdened with a misconception that he is gifted because of all the ghastly comments he receives. And some of those types will write on forums like this, pretending to be white because they feel their claims of being white will give more credibility to their assertions.
Hope this helps to clear things up, Jerry.
Posted by MM at 2:43 PM on July 22
I’m not going to go on and on here.
Obviously African immigrants to the US are not representative of Africans in general. That’s my point. We are taking the cream of the crop. But it does raise some interesting questions.
This is the UC Berkeley Linguistics prof I met when I went to the department for research as part of my job when I was working as an anthropologist and a linguist 10 yrs or so ago. I’ve seen that guy’s work and I can’t make heads or tails out of it, and I have a genius IQ myself.
That the uni professor in 8 yrs had only a few Blacks, almost all of whom were Caribbeans or Africans, is indeed important. Surely US Blacks dramatically outnumbered Caribbeans and Africans at that uni. This shows me that at least some of the Africans and Caribbeans we are taking in are the cream of the crop.
I’m not trying to make any pts about Black African or Caribbean intelligence. The IQ #’s are out there for all to see. It’s clearly a case of highly selective immigration. If I am making a pt, it is that immigrant to the US should be judiciously and rigorously policed, with only good candidates that will add to our nation admitted. Illegal immigration is the antithesis of that.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 9:58 PM on July 22
“Living in denial does not help anyone.”
Posted by Jerry at 4:09 PM on July 21
Yes, especially those who can’t come to grips with the fact that blacks are not known for their genius.
There’s truth behind every stereotype, as revealed by a joke that goes: “Santa Claus, a smart black, and a kangaroo were told that one of them had won the lottery. With that information tell me which one it was.
Answer: The kangaroo, because there’s no such thing as Santa Claus or a smart black.
Posted by Q at 11:11 PM on July 22
“That the uni professor in 8 yrs had only a few Blacks, almost all of whom were Caribbeans or Africans, is indeed important. Surely US Blacks dramatically outnumbered Caribbeans and Africans at that uni. This shows me that at least some of the Africans and Caribbeans we are taking in are the cream of the crop”
Her point was that these students outperformed WHITE students, not that they were smarter than American blacks. If only eight such students showed up in seven years, they are clearly not the cream of the crop as far as white students generally are concerned. We’re still waiting for support for your claim that
” … the *children* of African immigrants in the US are also outperforming most other ethnic groups. I know they are outperfoming Whites to be sure.”
You haven’t a shred of evidence for this.
Posted by Cassiodorus at 7:47 AM on July 23
“It’s clearly a case of highly selective immigration. If I am making a pt, it is that immigrant to the US should be judiciously and rigorously policed, with only good candidates that will add to our nation admitted. Illegal immigration is the antithesis of that.” — Posted by Robert Lindsay
Well, I don’t know about that. If you’re an employer importing/hiring drudge labor to make beds or gut chickens, you don’t need anyone with genius IQ’s. They’d only be trouble. How many geniuses do we need on an assembly line, anyway?
On the other hand, if you do import only very high IQ’s, they’d likely end up as bosses over own people, with our best interests not at heart. We don’t need that either.
Posted by at 8:19 AM on July 23
Q:
You just made Jerry’s point!
Posted by Mark at 9:50 AM on July 23
“On the other hand, if you do import only very high IQ’s, they’d likely end up as bosses over own people, with our best interests not at heart. We don’t need that either.”
Posted by at 8:19 AM on July 23
Yes, but where are you going to find high I.Q. blacks in Africa? Contrary to what a couple people on this site want us to believe, there is no such thing. Oh, yes, they can try to pull a black anomoly out of the hat that is about as rare as a flying pig, hoping to give the impression that they’re representative of many blacks, but it won’t work.
Look at the Bell Curve graph on I.Q. distribution. Blacks are a teeny tiny bunch over 112, which almost flat lines out at 122 and above. Hardly evidence of geniuses.
But personally, I favor allowing immigrants in only if the have good skills or are above an I.Q. level of about 102.
Posted by at 2:37 PM on July 23
The sooner tht some of you morons get the fact that IQ test primarily measure your ability to think in the abstract and nothing else more, then maybe you can relaize tha we have more pressing concerns to be concerned with
- the eradication of the White race
- the White elite who are complicit in selling the majority of other Whites down the river
- increasing discrimination and miscegnation directed toward Whites
There are clearly more important things to be concerned about than IQ tests people!!!
Posted by William at 6:07 PM on July 23
If the Africans and Caribbeans outperformed the Whites, they de facto they outperformed the Blacks too. Figures about the children of African immigrants are in the link above from Townhall.com
We don’t need low-wage, low-skill immigrants in the US. There are plenty of Americans to do that kind of work.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 7:04 PM on July 23
“Figures about the children of African immigrants are in the link above from Townhall.com”
The article says nothing about the children of black immigrants outperforming anyone.
Posted by Cassiodorus at 8:06 PM on July 23
“If the Africans and Caribbeans outperformed the Whites, they de facto they outperformed the Blacks too”
So you believe that eight students over seven years prove something about black immigrants? How can the sample of eight students, admitted to an honors program over seven years, prove anything? What conclusion can be drawn from so small a sample? Obviously most of these immigrant students were not very impressive; how many white students entered this program during these years? Of course this grants the legitimacy of “Roberta’s” post, something I’m disinclined to do given her marginal literacy.
Posted by at 8:11 PM on July 23
Q:
While I cannot say that I am the biggest fan of Blacks, I am not so craven as to say that there “are no intelligent Blacks.”
I think that you know that such a statement is foolish and false.
Let’s not give our detractors and critics ammunition.
Posted by Albert at 8:35 PM on July 23
Click the link, Cassio.
Dustmann and Theodoropoulos (2006) shows that the children of Black African immigrants in the UK beat the children of all other immigrants, and creamed Whites to boot.
Don’t ask me to explain such things.
Even that small sample of Blacks admitted to the Honors program shows us a lot. In all of her years there, there were only 8 Blacks in the program. Of the 5 that attended, 3 were Caribbeans and 1 was African. Obviously, there were vastly more US Blacks at that school than Caribbeans or Africans. So Africans and Caribbeans are represented in that program far more than expected. This shows that Africans and Caribbeans can often outperform US Blacks. This goes along with other evidence showing African Black immigrants creaming all other immigrant groups to the US. It seems we are taking the cream of the crop from Africa and the Caribbean.
Why this uncontroversial notion causes such a fuss on these boards is mysterious.
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 1:28 AM on July 24
“Dustmann and Theodoropoulos (2006) shows that the children of Black African immigrants in the UK beat the children of all other immigrants, and creamed Whites to boot.”
Check your OWN post, Lindsay: here’s what you said:
” … the *children* of African immigrants in the US are also outperforming most other ethnic groups. I know they are outperfoming Whites to be sure.”
Your assertion concerned the United States, not Britain. You ought to master basic English before taking this sort of tone with anyone else.
“Even that small sample of Blacks admitted to the Honors program shows us a lot. In all of her years there, there were only 8 Blacks in the program. Of the 5 that attended, 3 were Caribbeans and 1 was African. Obviously, there were vastly more US Blacks at that school than Caribbeans or Africans. So Africans and Caribbeans are represented in that program far more than expected.”
The original contention had to do with outperforming whites. All you’re showing here is that it may be likely that Caribbeans and African outpeform American blacks. Big deal. We’re all familiar with Asian valedictorians in the US; where are these magic blacks? Why do they never show up except in contentious studies like these? That the press would fawn all over them is perfectly obvious, so why don’t we see them?
Yes, these blacks are probably smarter than their compatriots in the Carribean or Africa. That’s called a “low bar.” Rushton and others have estimated the average IQ of black African university students at 85. This ought to suggest that these African “college graduates” are something other than geniuses.
Posted by at 10:36 AM on July 24
“Why this uncontroversial notion causes such a fuss on these boards is mysterious.”
Posted by Robert Lindsay at 1:28 AM on July 24
What you are claiming, Robert, flies in the face of reality as so much proof to the contrary proves you absolutely wrong, yet you seem to have a fixation on trying to convince people that black Africans are exceptionally bright, unlike their counterparts in the US.
The above poster citing 85 as the average I.Q. of university students in Africa is absolutely correct. He has it right on.
Can’t you understand how nonsensical your allegations are without taking any other info into consideration but average college I.Q. to expect someone to believe these people furnish a lot of doctors and other professionals able to compete LEGITIMATELY with US doctors and such? By getting ANYONE to believe that you could be responsible for them trusting one of these incompetents and getting killed because of ineptitude.
You might gain more understanding of this entire matter if you examine your motives for wanting us to believe your preposterous claims. Certainly you’re not so gullible you actually believe what you write are you?
And what is our interest in this? We don’t like being lied to, because we get enough of that from the radical academics and the MSM, plus the obnoxious arrogant blacks themselves.
Posted by at 11:53 PM on July 25
“Some of you have stated that Amerindians originated from northeast Asia and I wanted to point out that this is false, though it has been a long held theory that most people still believe. Recent genetic studies, not only on living Amerindians, but also on ancient remains, has shown that the natives of the America are a mixture resulting from many waves of immigration from different regions of Asia and even some Ice Age Europeans. You can look at different Amerindian tribes and see distinct physical differences in height, cranial structure, and facial features. It is true that Amerindians are mainly from mongoloid stock, but there is a great deal of diversity amongst the people, which really should be expected considering the huge geographic dispersion of the race.”
Okay, this doesn’t change the fact that they spent thousands upon thousands of years on two continents that were more abundant in resources than either Europe or Asia. Thus, they didn’t have to think as much as Europeans and Asians.
“Also, the idea that the ancient Aztecs and Mayans were a barbaric group is really unfair. The Mayans and Aztecs had a civilization much more advanced in many ways than the Europeans had at the time of European colonization of the Americas, though they did not possess certain technological innovations. The fact they they engaged in human sacrifice is indeed barbaric, but you can compare that to the barbarism that the Europeans engaged with their mass genocide of the Amerindians. The difference between the two is that Aztecs and Mayans killed their captives after battle and Europeans were more likely to slaughter their foes in battle.”
And what are their descendants doing now? Why are the Indian parts of Central and South America so backwards and the white areas the most advanced????
Posted by Courtney at 1:37 PM on July 26
There are more “native Americans” today than when the Europeans arrived. The genocide myth is just that, a myth.
I also have to mention that to say there are no intelligent blacks does give ammo to our enemies. There are intelligent people in every group, but the percentages differ. The percentage of intelligent blacks or for that matter, mestizos, is far, far smaller than the numbers of intelligent Whites or Asians. That’s just the way it is.
Posted by In So Cal Now at 7:48 PM on July 28
“the idea that the ancient Aztecs and Mayans were a barbaric group is really unfair. The Mayans and Aztecs had a civilization much more advanced in many ways than the Europeans had at the time of European colonization of the Americas, though they did not possess certain technological innovations.
The fact they they engaged in human sacrifice is indeed barbaric, but you can compare that to the barbarism that the Europeans engaged with their mass genocide of the Amerindians.
………………………………
“MUCH MORE advanced”? Oh, please! Can you be more specific, rather than make such a wild, unsupported statement and expect us to believe it just because you said it’s so? Of course you can’t. (And you didn’t.)
Where is there any Mayan pyramid to compare with the great Gothic cathedrals, St. Peter’s in Rome, the French chateaux, Westminster Abbey, the Sistine Chapel (all pre-conquest), the literature, the philosophy, the science, the art? And this doesn’t even consider the earlier accomplishments of Greece and Rome!
As for those barbaric Europeans you mention and their “mass genocide of the Amerindians”, that’s just more self-hate propaganda that’s fed to whites. Yes, there were wars and violence (both ways — what continent ever changed hands otherwise?), but if there had been any “mass genocide of Amerindians”, there wouldn’t be any left today.
In fact, today there are more of them than there ever were, and most of them are living on the white man’s generosity. Genocide indeed!
Posted by ghw at 8:54 PM on July 30