Near Freeway: Giant Confederate Flag?
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Jessica Vander Velde, St. Petersburg (Florida), May 31, 2008
Next year, a giant Confederate flag may tower above the tree line near the junction of Interstate 75 and Interstate 4.
The Sons of Confederate Veterans wants drivers in the Tampa area to see the massive flag—30 feet high and 50 feet long—atop a 139-foot pole, the highest the Federal Aviation Authority would allow. It would be lit at night.
With the pole already in the ground and building permits in hand, the group is on its way to having what it calls the “world’s largest” Confederate flag in place by mid 2009. The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, Florida division commander.
{snip}
The county has wrestled with sensitive Confederate issues in the past. In 1994, the Confederate flag was removed from the county seal. Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven’t since recognized Lee.
It’s the commissioners’ responsibility to make sure plans don’t move forward, Stokes said. The flag would send the wrong message about the county and it would be embarrassing because many visitors use the roads, he said.
Code enforcement officers won’t be able to stop the project because flags were removed from county sign regulations in 2004. County Commissioner Kevin White, whose district includes the flagpole site, could not be reached for comment Friday.
{snip}
Flags Across Florida started about eight years ago, after the Confederate flag was removed from the Capitol in Tallahassee. So far the group has two major flags erected: one in Suwannee County along Interstate 75 and one in Havana along U.S. 27.
{snip}
He hopes people who are offended by the flag will drive to the memorial and view the plaques honoring Confederate soldiers. They plan to have one dedicated to black Confederate veterans, he said.
{snip}
But he’s worried that it might offend a black employee of his, who was angered by the sighting of a Confederate flag on an earlier assignment.
{snip}
Dawson, the Sons of Confederate Veterans’ Florida commander, said he knows a giant Confederate flag flying 24 hours a day over two of the Tampa area’s busiest roads will cause controversy.
“We can’t do anything but explain to people what the truth is,” said Dawson, of Pensacola. {snip}
(Posted on June 2, 2008)
Comments
I intend to send them a contribution and hope all the other Amren readers will too. I’m sick and tired of the NAACP attacking symbols of White culture and history, while telling us all we have to honor diversity. They need to start honoring our culture. The stars and stripes once flew over slave-holding northern states. Are we going to have to get rid of that flag too, once Blacks decide it hurts their feelings to see a flag that once flew over slave holding states? We Yankees better start standing together with our southern brothers, whether the stars and bars means anything to us or not. We all know this is not about slavery, it’s about race.
Posted by Fritz at 5:33 PM on June 2
It’s about time! Where can I go to contribute?
Posted by at 5:44 PM on June 2
I think it’s a good idea. It’s time this nation stop denigrating the symbols of its history. They are what they are. You don’t see other nations tearing down their historical symbols, even if those symbols are judged today, as having represented evil at one time. If this were true, then the whole English Monarchy should be banned and purged, because I can hardly think of a group of people whos ancestors abused the English citzenry more than its kings and queens. Whippings, beatings, drawn and quatrerings by the tens of thousands,etc. sometimes for the most minor of offenses. Even the National Socialists seemed mild to their own in comparison to these Royal Rabble as Beethoven referred to them.
Posted by Bobby at 6:14 PM on June 2
Fly the flag and take pride because in the north the politicians fly the black racist flag on city halls.People are not aware of the racist implications of the red,black and green flag.In Cleveland the black nationalists and black panthers shot white police and firemen durig the Huff and Glenville riots.This same racist flag that the black nationalists and black panthers march with today is the same flag our politicians fly on the public buildings without a peep!One day the blacks will want to get rid of the American.We are truely are nations within a nation .Assert our heritage or lose it.Rise white nation!
Posted by THE MAN at 6:21 PM on June 2
I was born and raised in Georgia, having lived in different parts of the U.S., and I do not want to be anywhere else permanently. I had a Confederate flag beach towel in high school. My father and relatives have Confederate shirts, stickers, and hats to keep (at home).
The flag means more than just honoring Confederate soldiers. It represents a time period where blacks didn’t have the rights that they have now when whites had more control and power. I don’t like that the U.S. government is bound and determined to help everyone but its white citizens. But, making a big stink over flying a Confederate flag is just cause for whites to have to make up for it in other ways eventually.
Having two different plaques, one for honoring white Confederate soldiers and one for honoring black Confederate soldiers; just reinterates that the flag means what everyone knows, but is not ‘politically correct’ to say.
Posted by at 6:28 PM on June 2
Memo to the NAACP: Your side was victorious in the Civil War. Try being magnanimous for once, and see the War Between the States from someone else’s perspective for a change. And GET OVER IT! What are you going to do — carry a grudge against White Southerners forever?
And as to the business people who are “afraid it will offend their black customers” — they’ll get over it. I see something every day that offends me. This country doesn’t revolve around what blacks like and hate — or at least it certainly shouldn’t — and I say, “Place that Battle Flag, and place it proudly!”
Posted by Wayne Engle at 6:30 PM on June 2
I know the CofCC owns what is really the world’s largest Confederate flag, which I think is 50x75 feet. It flew on a pole on a tall building in Atlanta during the 1996 Summer Olympics, because Atlanta’s civic elite was ashamed of the fact that their city was once part of the Confederacy.
BTW, Jefferson Davis’s 200th birthday is tomorrow.
Posted by Question Diversity at 6:34 PM on June 2
What exactly does this accomplish? I’d prefer more effort being put into battlefield preservation.
Posted by at 6:36 PM on June 2
There is already one along I40 on the way to Knoxville from Memphis.
If my memory serves me, it is right near Sevierville, right by an overpass.
Posted by at 7:03 PM on June 2
The confederate flag is an insult to blacks. It’s basically saying we wish the South had won and all blacks were still slaves. It’s saying we endorse the confederate political platform which was based almost entirely around preserving slavery. What is the point of flying a white supremacy symbol that endorses and condones the slavery of blacks in the past? I thought we were about white separatism, this kind of stuff only sabotages our cause.
Posted by at 7:23 PM on June 2
“Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven’t since recognized Lee.”
Apologized? To who? For what?
So, in Hillsborough County, Florida, a “black civic leader” trumps General Lee, just as MLK trumps our Presidents in the nation at large.
Obviously, it is paramount that the SCV have the opportunity to “explain to people what the truth is.”
I think the flag will present a very welcome sight.
Posted by KonfederateKarl at 8:06 PM on June 2
A well-travelled highway fronts my property.
I’ve been seriously considering putting up a large confederate flag on a flag pole in my front pasture. I’m a transplanted Yankee, but my heart is with the cause of the South.
Too, the big Stars and Bars looks just like the Roman Numeral 10, which can be construed to represent the tenth amendment to the constitution, denoting states rights.
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
It’s an “in-your-face” declaration to the elitist geeks that this country still belongs to the people.
Posted by Robert Kelly at 8:37 PM on June 2
Previous poster Fritz said:
“The stars and stripes once flew over slave-holding northern states. Are we going to have to get rid of that flag too, once Blacks decide it hurts their feelings to see a flag that once flew over slave holding states? We Yankees better start standing together with our southern brothers, whether the stars and bars means anything to us or not.”
Fully agree, Fritz. There is an article by Sam Francis (maybe somebody here could provide the link) about how the denigration of Southern symbols and heroes is a problem not just for the South, but for ALL Americans.
Mr. Francis persuasively demonstrated how the Black/Leftist Axis of Weasel picks on Southern iconography like the Battle Flag only as a prelude to attacking EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE they consider representive of traditional white America — and how they won’t stop until they smear and discredit George Washington himself. It’s the proverbial first step on the slippery slope: first the Stars & Bars; then the Stars & Stripes.
I myself have no personal connection to the South (other than a number of enjoyable visits), but Francis convinced me that an insult to the Confederacy is an insult to us all. So fly that flag, Florida, fly it high and proud!
Posted by The Incredible Shrinking White Man at 8:55 PM on June 2
“I thought we were about White Separatism.” We are. Try as I might though, I just can`t seperate myself from a smile and a stir in my heart every time I see a rebel flag or hear the band strike up Dixie. And hear a honey haired hottie say Y`all…
Posted by Tim Mc Hugh at 9:25 PM on June 2
The confederate flag represents a culture, a history. It’s a history from which many whites of the south are descended from. Speaking as a northerner, southern whites have a lot to be proud of. Slavery was part of the south and not good, but that was only one part. Many southerners thought the institution of slavery was far from ideal. Thomas Jefferson and Robert E. Lee both thought it was less than ideal. Like a weed in a garden. This does not justify eliminating the garden to get the weed. The confederate flag represents so much more. Be proud to to display it. Those hostile and ignorant, be patient with them. But be strong and stand your ground. The flag that represents the United States is not without blemish, but should we banish that as well? Hell no! Keep free speech alive and fly your confederate flags!
Posted by spiritofdixie at 10:03 PM on June 2
OK, folks, I was born in a Northern State, and had a relative who fought with the Union Army. I have spent over half of my life living in states that were not even states when the War was fought. I respect you Southerners that want to display the Confederate flag, (the above post was good, “I was born and raised in Georgia,”) but you must realize that the Northerners and those from the “non-involved states” just don’t get it! It seems to us like you want to keep living in the past! I have been on jobs where the guys from the South were downright hostile to anyone who was not Southern born. (traveling construction worker on a job in Nebraska) It was like they were still fighting the war! What’s up with that?? I wasn’t even born, and don’t live in a “Northern” state anymore, and I can feel the hostility. It’s not my fault the blacks got the royal treatment after the War… I don’t like all this mess any more than you Southerners do…
Posted by at 10:45 PM on June 2
“The confederate flag is an insult to blacks. It’s basically saying we wish the South had won and all blacks were still slaves. It’s saying we endorse the confederate political platform which was based almost entirely around preserving slavery.”
To you, history is frozen in time at the moment of conquest. To the victor everything. To the vanquished nothing. By your reasoning, since blacks were enslaved by whites, they never should have been given their freedom. After all, they lost.
Posted by sbuffalonative at 12:39 AM on June 3
Poster at “7:23” While I see your point, you kid yourself if you believe our collective cause is made more acceptable or palatable by the absence of symbols like the Confederate battle flag. Rest assured, the general cause of white seperatism is every bit as odious to the unenlightened masses and minorities alike, as any fully robed, flag-draped Klansman! Moreover, that flag has a much greater and broader meaning across much of the South(and parts of the North as well)than a bitter neo-confederate longing to re-institute slavery.
Posted by Hank at 1:09 AM on June 3
The Civil War was not fought over the issue of slavery, it was fought over state’s rights. Not everyone who willingly fought for the Confederacy was for slavery and not everyone who willingly who fought for the Union was for abolishing slavery.
I use the word “willingly” because both sides of the Civil War used conscription to supply soldiers. Hollywood is often inaccurate about history, but the 1863 Draft Riot seen in the movie “Gangs of New York” is accurate.
It was not Abraham Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation that freed American slaves. It was the 13th Amendment that freed the slaves, which was passed in 1865, after the war ended.
Even if the Confederacy won the Civil War, an independent Confederate States of America still would have had to abolish slavery by the year 1900.
While most blacks despise the Confederate flag, there is a small minority of blacks who actually do fly the Confederate flag. My guess is that these Confederate flag-waving blacks are cursed as “Uncle Toms” by other black people. I would be very interested to know the point of view of these blacks who fly the Confederate flag, as this would make a great article for American Renaissance to publish.
My guess is that if the Confederacy had emancipated all of its slaves before firing on Fort Sumter and officially started Confederate regiments of black soldiers, then maybe France, Great Britain, and other European nations would have sent military aid to the Confederacy, and given the South a chance of winning the war. This is because there were many in Great Britain who wanted to side with the Confederacy, but the strong anti-slavery sentiment of the British public made such an alliance out of the question.
Anyway, to everyone reading this post, I am a white man, but most importantly, I am a Yankee from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. So admittingly, my feelings about the Civil War is to be for Abe Lincoln and preserving the Union. But I still admire the Confederate soldiers, especially General Robert E. Lee, as noble adversaries.
Posted by at 5:49 AM on June 3
It’s not the Stars and Bars. The flag in question is the Battle Flag, or more properly a rectangular variety of the square Battle Flag. The Stars and Bars flag has three broad horizontal bars, red, white, red, and a blue filed in one corner with a circle of stars.
The Battle Flag is the one with the X with 13 stars. The St. Andrews Cross.
Posted by GB at 7:25 AM on June 3
As a White American citizen, I could care less what Black whiners claim… the Confederate Flag honors people who bravely fought, suffered and died for what they believed in! No more, no less.
Forget the garbage Blacks always try to claim… the War was fought to preserve (or end) slavery. The Civil War was over the right of a group of states to secede from the Union because of their belief in states having the right of self-determination. That the State, rather than a remote federal government, is best able to decide what legislation and controls are best suited for its people.
The emancipation issue came into vogue at a time the North was being bled of young men to feed into the war. Read the history books. Lincoln was faced with Northern draft-dodgers, protesters and dissenters. So the emancipation issue was evolved to ‘psych’ those people up to risk their lives, their limbs in what was becoming a highly unpopular war.
We are not talking about the moral issue of slavery but that those brave Southerners who fought and died for their beliefs deserve to be honored! That the Stars and Bars was not, will never be the symbol of oppression the Blacks love to claim, but a symbol of incredible bravery by people willing to die for what they believed in. No more, no less!
If Afro-Americans ‘claim’ to be offended. Tough beans! As an American, I am offended by the trash lyrics of their rap music. By the endless crimes by Blacks. By their genetically influenced tendency to be life-long failures, supported in perpetuity by us mainstream Americans.
Posted by Fed Up at 8:13 AM on June 3
“I’ve been seriously considering putting up a large confederate flag on a flag pole in my front pasture. I’m a transplanted Yankee, but my heart is with the cause of the South.”
Do it ASAP(And this is coming from a guy who has ancestors on both my mother’s and father’s sides that fought for the Union)! I’m from NJ and I have seen more and more Confederate flags about. Nothing really big, but they are there. And I can’t help feel the same way about what Tim McHugh said,
“Try as I might though, I just can`t seperate myself from a smile and a stir in my heart every time I see a rebel flag or hear the band strike up Dixie.”
If it makes liberals, leftists, profesional blacks and other tolerant-minded people who are running about “upset,” so much the better. Celebrate diversity, and fly the Star and Bars!
Posted by at 10:10 AM on June 3
Posted by at 7:23 PM on June 2 wrote:
“The confederate flag is an insult to blacks. It’s basically saying we wish the South had won and all blacks were still slaves. “
__________________
Slavery was not the cause of the war. You are missing the point.
As “Fed Up” eloquently said (post was dead on, BTW), the War Between the States began as the South’s response to the Federal Government’s unfair taxation (Morrill Tariff) and violation of the 10th Amendment. Slavery was brought in as an issue long after the start of the war (Emancipation Proclamation). The flag is a part of the southern heritage to remember and honor those who fought the abuses cast on them by an unfair government.
Most believers in Dixie could have cared less about slavery, because the majority did not own slaves. They were, however, sick and tired of abuse thrust upon them by the Feds.
As a country slips closer and closer into a socialist/marxist regime, the first things to go are the historical and cultural icons, along with the concept of self determination. Everything becomes “group think” and what benefits the community.
We are well on our way.
Posted by at 12:13 PM on June 3
Slavery as an institution was moribund. No new slaves had been imported since about 1804, so as an institution, slavery was finished.
In 1859, a young black guy cost $1000. That was a lot of money back then, so he couldn’t be used in dangerous work. They used Irish and Chinese for railroad work, for 25 cents a day until they got hurt too bad to work anymore, and then they were out of luck.
It was Irish railroad workers who brought the fistfight to the US west. Protestants always used guns, Mexicans used knives, and eveyone knew better than to leave an angry Apache or Comanche alive. The first fistfight in the US west probably ended up with six gut-shot Irishmen on a railroad work crew, unless their boss had a LeMat, in which case it would have been more.
Posted by Michael C. Scott at 12:17 PM on June 3
“…..but you must realize that the Northerners and those from the “non-involved states” just don’t get it!”
Posted by at 10:45 PM on June 2
—————-
Sadly, you are correct. The reason is because history books are written from the victors point of view and truths are omitted and oftentimes corrupted into complete falsehoods.
This is why Southerners feel the way the do.
As far as whether or not the flag offends blacks, too bad. Many aspects of the culture are offensive to many (including their predisposition to crime and ghetto mentality), but we are forced to “deal with it”. To those who whine about the flag: “CRY ME A RIVER”.
Posted by at 12:20 PM on June 3
Barak Hussein Obama “IS” the Abe Lincoln of our time, as many are claiming. The greatest divider in American history resurrected.
Posted by White Slave at 1:34 PM on June 3
“…on jobs where the guys from the South were downright hostile to anyone who was not Southern born.” (Posted by at 10:45 PM on June 2)
People do this sort of grouping and excluding naturally, but doing it on the basis of race is generally the most natural of all.
It’s occurrence within races can usually be overcome, since the real differences between the groups involved are small.
Posted by H. Dumpty at 1:49 PM on June 3
P.S. White Southerners and White Northerners—most of us could live with that much diversity.
Posted by H. Dumpty at 1:52 PM on June 3
I grew up loving that flag.
Symbols are so important—does anyone doubt the importance the swastika flag played in Germany?
Every one will get to feel that the Confederate flag is the symbol of their own ideas, and all can rally around it, instead of endlessly quarreling over ideas. (They’ll still quarrel, but maybe not endlessly)
Getting your symbols constantly in the public eye is critical—they have more effect on most people than the dissemination of just ideas.
Long may it wave!
Posted by H. Dumpty at 2:05 PM on June 3
“Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven’t since recognized Lee.”
Disgusting. Blacks keep demanding every kind of separation—can’t we just give it to them?
Posted by H. Dumpty at 2:08 PM on June 3
“The confederate flag is an insult to blacks. It’s basically saying we wish the South had won and all blacks were still slaves. It’s saying we endorse the confederate political platform which was based almost entirely around preserving slavery. What is the point of flying a white supremacy symbol that endorses and condones the slavery of blacks in the past? I thought we were about white separatism, this kind of stuff only sabotages our cause.”
Posted by at 7:23 PM on June 2
> I am always for treading a careful path; not giving in to Nazi like anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, etc., but in this case, it is not a case of racism, but the interpretation of a flag as a symbol.
I think your definition of what that flag represents is incorrect and is in fact the later black promoted definition. The flag is to me a symbol of the individual and states they live in, to determine their own lives. It is the banner of resistance to federal top-down tyranny. That is the real issue that the American Civil War was about, the slave issue was a convenient issue to assert federal hegemony. It was religious radicals that forced the issue into armed conflict as they often have in history. Since slavery was ended all over the Western World during the 19th century without a civil war, one has to wonder why we had to have one here. The reason was the strong fanatical religious meaning that Methodists (and others) put into the political mix.
Sharecroping, or something like it, would have soon evolved in the south as it did in other countries, because holding slaves would soon become economically untenable. Just as the sharecroping system died out in the late 1920s and ’30s and caused much suffering (and almost another civil war - revolution) economics would have corrected the problem of slavery.
Today, the federal government (as well as state governments) is making another hegemonic change on those of us who can trace our ancestry back before the Civil War. The final solution seems to be to wipe us out through overwhelming immigration and social conditions that promote race-mixing. Those aware and resisting need symbols. I submit that the Confederate Battle Flag is an apt symbol, even though my favorite historical flag is the Gadsen “Don’t Tread on Me!” flag, which I fly on my home. It also has to do with the fight against tyranny.
The American Civil War was a tragedy, certainly, but it is because it was more about Northern industrial power and federalism asserting itself than freeing slaves. All those courageous whites died needlessly. The Northerners were led by religious idealism in politics, which showed them up later. Now that is a terrible tragedy!
Just as we must resist the notion of racism as an evil concept for any who wish to see their own kind survive - and that or any word used as a political weapon for Soviet style denunciations, we must resist the labeling of AMERICAN (as opposed to for example German) symbols from being defined for us by our enemies.
Posted by Whiteplight at 3:53 PM on June 3
The Confederacy no more stood for slavery than did the United States . Did they mean to insure the reigns of power remained in the hands of those whose forefathers established the nation instead of passing into the grip of a culture 5000 years behind Europeans and rescued from a prehistoric bushman existence ? Undeniably , it was our idea (Europeans), our nation … no apologies made . Slavery existed for over 80 years under the Stars and Stripes . There were tens of thousands of slave owners in the Union ranks . Four slave states never seceded , a fifth was allowed into the Union after hostilities had begun . Lincoln reiterated over and over the war was not about slavery , there are quotes from Grant , Sherman and other major Union players that the war was not about slavery , Congress declared it was not about slavery . If it was about slavery then so was the Revolution . All thirteen colonies allowed slavery and all thirteen colonies had slaves . Independence Hall was largely built by slave labor . And the British tried to utilize the issue in much the same way the Union did . As for being a racist symbol , I have a documentary from a liberal educational channel on Aryan Nations . At the entrance of the compound they are flying a Confederate flag , adjacent to it but higher , they are flying an American flag along with about 22 other American flags . Clearly their flag of choice at the time this film was made was the American flag . Admittedly the slavery issue did fuel the fires , but had it not existed and all others conditions did , the war unfortunately would still have been fought . In a nutshell , it has always been said about the Africans ,” Southerners hate the race but love the individual , Northerners (at least the liberal ones ) love the race but hate the individual.” I think this is largely true . I had a New Jersey contractor doing some work on our house . The deep South is all my wife and I have ever known but we were aghast at how he treated his black employees . We had an old black working in our salvage yard , a real sage . Used to tell us all the time ,” they haven’t made the African who won’t lie and steal” . And he proved it by the number of tools he saved as they exited our junk yard .
Posted by at 5:08 PM on June 3
I think it’s great. Give em a Rebel Yell to go along with the great Rebel flag.
But, as I am a “Yankee” I must ask the Sons of the Confederacy…
“Who won the war”?
“Isn’t it better to Win a war, than to Lose a War”?
Go Yankees! And also understand that to the victor go the spoils of war. How about one of those nice charming Southern brides for me?
In return and as a show of national, racial reconciliation, I offer the Sons of the Confederacy my blessings to marry, date, mate whatever within any Northern feminist type like Hillary.
:-)
Posted by JR at 5:22 PM on June 3
As long as you insist on flying the confederate flag, people in the North and the West will look upon you as backward and alien. There is simply no way around this. The flag of the losing power that tried to break apart the Union will never be accepted into the political and cultural mainstream, just as those who fly the flag of the Black Nationalism invite ridicule and political isolation. Sometimes the only way to move forward is to let go of an old symbol, but of course it should be your choice as to if you want to make history or be trapped by it.
Posted by at 5:34 PM on June 3
Fed Up wrote: The emancipation issue came into vogue at a time the North was being bled of young men to feed into the war. Read the history books. Lincoln was faced with Northern draft-dodgers, protesters and dissenters. So the emancipation issue was evolved to ‘psych’ those people up to risk their lives, their limbs in what was becoming a highly unpopular war.
The so-called “Emancipation Proclamation” (which was carefully worded so as not to actually free any slaves) had two goals, one of which succeeded: 1) to prevent Britain or France from recognizing the CSA, and 2) to gin up a massive slave revolt, thereby creating a “second front” in the war.
Had Lincoln gotten his way, the following would have become the 13th Amendment in 1861:
“No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.”
Lincoln submitted this to Congress, and the required 2/3 of both houses passed it. Note that it would have preserved slavery forever, as it could not be repealed or altered. The fact that the Confederate States rejected the amendment and left the USA anyway is all the proof anyone needs that slavery had little or nothing to do with secession.
Last month we visited Charleston, SC for a few days. The most profound sites we saw were Ft. Sumter and the CSS Hunley. Throughout the visit, I found myself imagining what the city & surrounding area would look like had the good guys won the war (or had the USA honored its constitutional obligations and allowed the CSA to leave in peace).
Posted by Strider at 6:36 PM on June 3
I have to agree with 7:23 PM.
The war might have been about states’ rights, but it was primarily states’ rights to allow slavery.
I detest slavery.
Also, the old stars and bars has been degraded by fraternity brats who wave it (or used to wave it) while they engage(d) in debaucheries.
Where were the preservationists then?
Posted by at 7:05 PM on June 3
Posted by at 7:05 PM on June 3
“I detest slavery.”
“Also, the old stars and bars has been degraded by fraternity brats who wave it (or used to wave it) while they engage(d) in debaucheries.”
===============
Huh? What “debaucheries” are you talking about? The same ole frat boys that “raped” a stripper in NC?
So a flag is to blame rather than the people who committed the acts? Interesting……
Most human beings alive today DO detest slavery, so what is your point? I don’t think you’ll find anyone on this board that thinks slavery is a GOOD thing.
What I detest is that some selfish, aristocratic idiots had no more foresight or concern about the future generations of this country than to dump africans on our shores.
Posted by at 8:09 PM on June 3
The confederacy lasted only 5 years, so it couldn’t stand for anything else but the cause of the revolt itself—Abraham Lincoln’s promise to prevent slavery spreading into any further US territories. That was the cause of the seccession, and that was the reason the Confederacy existed. Lincoln didn’t even say he would interfere with slavery in the states who had it. What exact state right is interfered with by not spreading an evil institution into yet more of the country? The South revolted over not getting to EXPAND its territory so it could then oppress yet more blacks in new, undepleted soil. It’s hard to believe in a less just cause.
While the US flag allowed slaves, it was not founded so that it could have slaves. It did not revolt against England so it could import more slaves. Most of the country was against slavery, not for it like the Confederacy. And the US flag presided over many things completely unrelated to slavery, the settling of the west, honorable wars of self-defense, the first working large-scale democracy, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Whereas the Confederacy lasted exactly five years and was simply a war to preserve and expand slavery—there is nothing the flag can proudly fly over, except I agree the soldiers themselves. Confederate flags at war memorials and graves is proper—in the middle of an interstate it’s just not.
Is it possible that if the Confederacy had won it would’ve eventually become the greatest country on earth? Yes, it’s possible. But the Confederacy never did preside over any of that, it never did achieve any of that. It was a failed state that fought over only one issue, the right to expand slavery into the territories. Every county with a large proportion of slaves sided with the south, every county with few slaves sided with the north. Even west virginia and parts of tennessee and arkansas sided with the north, people who supposedly care as much about state’s rights as anyone else—only they didn’t have slaves. That’s a pattern and it puts the stake to the heart of the idea of tariffs or any other cause of the civil war.
A new flag, without any baggage, can just as easily represent the good parts of the South, or of whites in general. The Confederate flag is a dead end. We need to start fresh.
Posted by at 8:17 PM on June 3
Go rebels!!!!!!!!!!
I know what side I will be on if there is ever another civil war. It won’t be the federal governments.
Posted by yankee at 8:42 PM on June 3
To Posted by at 8:17 PM on June 3 -
I doubt this post will make it through, but the misinformation in your post must be addressed.
The first state to leave the Union (S.C.) did so because of HIGH PROTECTIVE TARIFFS which had been in place since 1824. The tariffs were assessed on imported goods (including goods shipped to the southern states from the north) and raised again in 1832, at which time there was a narrowly averted armed conflict, when SC nullified the tariffs as unconstitutional. The feds were near starving the strongly agriculture South simply to put revenues in their coffers. In 1860, the US CONGRESS voted to increase the tariffs from an average of 15% to 37%, with an additional 10% over the next 10 years. (Sound familiar?)
Southerners will never buy into the “slavery” issue, because we know that was simply not the primary cause of the war. FEDERAL INTERVENTION INTO OUR LIVES WAS.
BTW- years ago we South Carolinians actually were taught about these things in elementary school, i.e. before the PC police began to dictate what your children may be taught.
Posted by at 12:33 AM on June 4
“The confederate flag is an insult to blacks.”
Martin Luther King, Jr. is an insult to Whites
“It’s basically saying we wish the South had won and all blacks were still slaves.”
We DO wish the South had won. The “slavery” comment is poppycock.
“It’s saying we endorse the confederate political platform which was based almost entirely around preserving slavery.”
We DO endorse the Confederate Political Platform which was PRESERVING THE CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC OUR FOUNDERS CREATED.
“What is the point of flying a white supremacy symbol that endorses and condones the slavery of blacks in the past?”
There is no point in “flying a white supremacy symbol that endorses and condones slavery of blacks in the past,” and NO SUCH SYMBOL IS BEING FLOWN!
“I thought we were about white separatism, this kind of stuff only sabotages our cause.”
We ARE about “seperatism” if that is your cup of tea, but we are more concerned about FREEDOM OF CHOICE. If anything is “sabotoged” it is our freedom to choose. It shouldn’t matter WHY the flag is being flown but simply that its owner has a RIGHT to.
Posted by P Norman at 1:29 AM on June 4
“A new flag, without any baggage, can just as easily represent the good parts of the South, or of whites in general. The Confederate flag is a dead end. We need to start fresh.
Posted by at 8:17 PM on June 3 “
Yessir, we’d best not offend our masters.
Actually, the Confederate flag is the cross of St. Andrew with stars on it.
You know, the patron Saint of the Scots.
Many of whom settled the southern U.S.
Like the Union Jack, which combines the cross of St. George and the cross of St. Andrew on one flag, it is now considered a hate symbol, just as our existence as white people is considered hateful to our masters.
But hey, if we just get rid of those nasty flags, our enemies won’t be mad at us any more.
Right?
Posted by mderpelding at 6:10 AM on June 4
“What I detest is that some selfish, aristocratic idiots had no more foresight or concern about the future generations of this country than to dump africans on our shores.”
I could not agree more.
But from what I saw in my college days (long before the lying Duke-stripper), it was the Confederate flag-waving frat-brats who did not honor the flag. It was a symbol of their hell-raising. But that was then, “younger days, when living for my life was everything a man could want to do. We could never see tomorrow; no one said a word about the sorrow.”
Posted by 7:05 PM at 10:53 AM on June 4
I’m from the North, have ancestors who fought for the Union, and am certainly no supporter of the Confederate flag. However, if the Blacks can fly their red-black-green Black Power flag on Public School property here in Chicago, I see no reason why the Southern Whites cannot fly the Confederate flag.
Posted by at 11:13 AM on June 4
Display of the Confederate flag is not a statement that we wish blacks were still slaves, 7:23 PM. As an institution, slavery was being pulled into the ground by its own grotesque inefficiency.
A 17 year-old black guy cost $1000 in 1859, and that was a lot of money. He would try to run away, and so needed an overseer. He would work only just hard enough to avoid a beating, and if he got sick or hurt and couldn’t work, his master was out the investment.
The south was far less industrialized than the north, largely because so much capital was tied up in the slaves.
If the abolitionists had wanted to end slavery without provoking a war, they could have used the government’s Eminent Domain right to seize the slaves after paying their owners fair market value.
Posted by Michael C. Scott at 12:03 PM on June 4
Got to tell you this one….someone stole my American flag that my hubby put out front on a flagpole. (He died two years ago now and he was a Armny vet) and I haven’t put a flag up since the moron stole it…but my friends here at Amren…I am making a pledge right now, if that big eared, lying sack of manure black, wins in November, I am going to buy myself a nice big rebel flag and fly it right out front…and have it wired and turn on the juice at night, if anyone tries to steal it….zap zap….it should be interesting to see what happens…
Posted by lydia at 12:08 PM on June 4
Actually, the Confederate flag is the cross of St. Andrew with stars on it.
Actually, no. That’s the battle flag of the Confederacy. The Confederacy had several national flags, none of which were the battle flag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Posted by qwerty at 1:59 PM on June 4
It is not the size of the flag, itself; nor the design of the flag per se, or even the color of the flag that African - Americans find so offensive. Rather it is what it represents. In order to be appropriately sensitive in this new, hip hop, MTV generation, perhaps a more politically correct flag, reflecting the white duty owed to all minorities, should be offered to be flown, in a spirit of compromise of course, in its place. Say, I’ve got it! Lets replace this old outdated Confederate Flag with ….hmmm…. let me see here ….. oh yeah….. how about an all white one?
Posted by MoMo at 2:04 PM on June 4
The confederacy lasted only 5 years, so it couldn’t stand for anything else but the cause of the revolt itself—Abraham Lincoln’s promise to prevent slavery spreading into any further US territories. That was the cause of the seccession, and that was the reason the Confederacy existed. Lincoln didn’t even say he would interfere with slavery in the states who had it. What exact state right is interfered with by not spreading an evil institution into yet more of the country? The South revolted over not getting to EXPAND its territory so it could then oppress yet more blacks in new, undepleted soil. It’s hard to believe in a less just cause.
It is true that Lincoln was only a Free Soiler and not an outright abolitionist, but the admission of all new states as free states would’ve resulted in the eventual abolition of slavery everywhere in the U.S., since it would’ve given the free states the majority in the Senate (they already had the majority in the House, since even back then the North was more densely populated than the South.)
Posted by qwerty at 2:11 PM on June 4
Isnt it interesting that the Deep South, once in rebellion against the Union, has kept the deepest traditions of America
alive, far more than the North with its embrace of International Muliticulturalism?
Posted by at 8:30 PM on June 4
Why not fly the confederate flag? And while we are at it, start flying them over southern state capital buildings like they use to.
The minorities always seem to be getting what they want. Let the whites start getting what they want.
Posted by Save America at 9:16 PM on June 4
Not all new states were automatically to be admitted as free states. Their populations were to be allowed to vote on the matter, and this directly caused the massive prewar bloodshed in the Jayhawk Wars in Kansas and Missouri.
Additionally, the Union was extremely hypocritical when it came to seccession. The Confederacy was not to be allowed to secceed peacefully - the North maintained garissons like the one at Ft. Sumter, and burned the navy yard at Norfolk to prevent anything useful from falling into the hands of a nation with *whom the Union was not yet at war*. Among the equipment destroyed at Norfolk was the steam frigate Merrimack (4600 tons, 48 heavy guns of 8” caliber and up), sailing ships of the line New York, Columbus and Delaware (2600 tons, 90 guns) and Pennsylvania (3100 tons, 120 guns). On the other hand, the Union insisted that West Virginia be allowed to secceed from Virginia, and held a crooked election in Maryland to prevent that state from secceeding.
Posted by Michael C. Scott at 2:27 AM on June 5
Today’s historical revisionists make the claim that the Civil War was fought to “free the slaves” and not to “preserve states rights”. If the Union was so enamored of freeing slaves then why were they forced to resort to drafting men to fight their fellow Americans under penalty of imprisonment?
Only a complete idiot would believe that a Yankee would walk away from his home, livelihood, wife, children, friends and family to risk leaving his wife a desolate widow and his children fatherless cretins simply to fight for the freedom of a people of another race whom he had never met nor owed any allegiance to whatsoever…
Posted by at 1:42 PM on June 5
“Why not fly the confederate flag? And while we are at it, start flying them over southern state capital buildings like they use to.
The minorities always seem to be getting what they want. Let the whites start getting what they want.”
Most whites don’t want the confederate flag. It would be a good idea however if there was a ‘Betsy Ross’ out there working on a new flag…
Posted by at 2:33 PM on June 5
Anybody who can supply me with the address of this group, I am ready, willing and able to send a nice donation to help this project along.
Posted by Gayle Sollenberger at 4:08 PM on June 5
Undeniably the rumblings against the Confederate flag have been going on since the WBTS . But for the most part it had become acceptable after WW2 . As Lincoln said , ” with malice toward none .” During the fifties it was shown in movies mostly in an objective if not positive light . It never came up during the sixties regardless of what a certain special interest/ civil rights group and it’s activist would have you believe . But there was a flag that did , many times with the hippie/peacenik movement . They had a penchant for impugning it , even burning it at the slightest perceived sometimes delusional provocation .As I recall black Olympians John Carlos , Tommie Smith, Vincent Mathews and Wayne Colette were not overly fond of this flag either but I doubt you ever saw any Southerner attacking this flag in any manner or burning their draft card . Largely in contemporary times , it has never come up(the Confederate flag) until it was decided at a conference table in the early nineties , chaired by Kwiesi Mfume representing a floundering organization consumed in corruption ,that all things Southern were offensive . So if your white and cannot see the objective truth about this flag , then your buying into Mfume’s agenda just like he and his minions would have you do .
Posted by at 8:07 PM on June 5
GOD BLESS THEM
Posted by mkm at 10:08 PM on June 5
I’m a Georgia born white nationalist and I do love to see the Confederate flag flying because it means that there are still people out there who haven’t drunk the kool-aid of multicultural globalism yet. For those of you that didn’t follow our flag goat rope in Georgia in a few years we changed out flag three times. First we had the 1956 flag that had the state seal on a field of blue in the corner with the Confederate battle flag filling out about 2/3 of the rest of the flag.
We had the usual rabble rousing and so they changed it to what I call the “Denny’s place mat”, a ridiculous committee design that everybody hated. That lasted about a year or so then they replaced it with a third flag and the controversy died down. I’m a Civil War buff and it has been pretty amusing to us since the “new” Georgia flag looks a whole lot like the First National Confederate flag. You don’t hear anything about it anymore one way or another and I can only infer that blacks are too ignorant of history to realize that Georgia just replaced one Confederate flag with another.
I can understand though why blacks in particular don’t like that flag or some Northerners for that matter. We rolled it out in 1956 when you people enforced integration on us. It was meant to be a visible symbol of Southern defiance. Southerners are by nature very polite people so something like that was meant to be the equivalent of spitting in your eye. The 1956 Georgia state flag was DESIGNED to offend Yankees agitators and blacks.
It is bitterly funny for me now to read the laments about our education system and the disruption and chaos that blacks and other minorities are inflicting in public schools across the nation. The things that I have seen come to pass in the United States are WORSE than the things that the hard core white supremacist in Georgia warned us about when the north forced us to integrate. It was so easy for the rest of the country to marginalize us as ignorant white crackers. Do you all still think now that the white southerners, who had lived in closest proximity to blacks, were wrong to want to keep our children separated from them?
Now to revisit the flag issue, although I love the old Stars and Bars, you can’t unify people under a flag that creates so much controversy. I suggest we all fly the Gadsden flag, the yellow banner with the rattlesnake that says “Don’t tread on me”. Northerners, southerners and westerners should all be able to proudly fly this flag as it has honorable roots in the American revolution. Although it came out of South Carolina it has no connection to slavery. If you see this flag on a decal on a car or flying in someones yard you know that the person who is flying it is a like minded person who will probably be well armed and willing to stand against tyranny.
Posted by Enough at 7:02 AM on June 6
“Why not fly the confederate flag? And while we are at it, start flying them over southern state capital buildings like they use to.
The minorities always seem to be getting what they want. Let the whites start getting what they want.”
Most whites don’t want the confederate flag. It would be a good idea however if there was a ‘Betsy Ross’ out there working on a new flag…
Posted by at 2:33 PM on June 5
My implied statement here was for the Southern Whites who wanted to fly it, let them. My statement called for a little reading between the lines. But, so called Mexican-Americans fly their Mexican flags in America, Black Panthers fly their own flag, as one post on here said, so why can’t some Southern Whites in the South fly the confederate flag as part of their southern heritage? Even if you or I may not agree with it? What happened to freedom of expression for all people in this country? I guess it’s not the politically correct thing to do because they are white people who are doing it. The same politcal correctness here doesn’t apply to the Hispanics or the Blacks, even if they have their own groups who push their own agendas, funded with taxpayers money even, to the disadvantage of white people and our form of government. If we called them on it, we would be accused of racism, but it’s ok to tell white people you can’t fly a confederate flag. Do you see the hypocritical double standard here?
Posted by Save America at 9:17 PM on June 6
Bumper stickers with the rebel flag and ‘heritage not hate’ on them are easy to come by where I live. I’m only 30, but I will never by it.
If the underlying meaning of flying the Rebel, Black Panther, or Mexican flag, etc. causes more hate; just leave it alone. Fly it amongst your own circle of friends, out of the public eye, when it means more to you anyway. The issue gets blown way out of proportion.
Posted by at 12:07 AM on June 7
And that is just it, the Mexicans and the Blacks, don’t leave it alone. Who is really blowing everything out of proportion to begin with? They will keep flying their flags, out in the open, and keep pushing their agendas, and will never be happy, until the U.S. becomes a third world nation. We are heading in this direction right now unless this trend is somehow reversed. Just look at some of the major cities in the United States. The once economically viable white majority controlled Detroit MI, is now a black majority controlled cess pool and war zone. The cities of Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Miami, and even Dallas TX, are cities where minorities are now a majority. I can go on here about major American cities but this is not my original point. By 2050, it has been estimated that white people in this country will become a minority. In 1950, the U.S. was 90% white. So in just a little over 3 generations, whites can actually become a minority in their own country. This is a very disturbing and alarming trend. In the state of California, the most properous and most populated state where I live, the whites have already become a minority.
I’ve digressed, but could it be that flying the confederate flag, just may be part of the reason why the Southern Whites do want to fly it because of the minorities in this country openly express their racial identity, without fear of reprecussions? I think so, even if the issue becomes blown out of proportion and causes more hate.
Posted by Save America at 2:35 PM on June 7