Black Conservatives Weigh Voting for Obama
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AP, June 14, 2008
Black conservative talk show host Armstrong Williams has never voted for a Democrat for president. That could change this year with Barack Obama as the Democratic Party’s nominee.
“I don’t necessarily like his policies; I don’t like much that he advocates, but for the first time in my life, history thrusts me to really seriously think about it,” Williams said. “I can honestly say I have no idea who I’m going to pull that lever for in November. And to me, that’s incredible.”
Just as Obama has touched black Democratic voters, he has engendered conflicting emotions among black Republicans. They revel over the possibility of a black president but wrestle with the thought that Obama doesn’t sit beside them ideologically.
“Among black conservatives,” Williams said, “they tell me privately, it would be very hard to vote against him in November.”
Perhaps sensing the possibility of such a shift, Republican presidential candidate John McCain has made some efforts to lure black voters. He recently told Essence magazine that he would attend the NAACP’s annual convention next month, and he noted that he recently traveled to Selma, Ala., scene of seminal voting rights protests in the 1960s, and “talked about the need to include ‘forgotten Americans.”’
{snip}
J.C. Watts, a former Oklahoma congressman who once was part of the GOP House leadership, said he’s thinking of voting for Obama.
Watts said he’s still a Republican, but he criticizes his party for neglecting the black community. Black Republicans, he said, have to concede that while they might not agree with Democrats on issues, at least that party reaches out to them.
“And Obama highlights that even more,” Watts said, adding that he expects Obama to take on issues such as poverty and urban policy. “Republicans often seem indifferent to those things.”
Writer and actor Joseph C. Phillips got so excited about Obama earlier this year that he started calling himself an “Obamacan”—Obama Republican. Phillips, who appeared on “The Cosby Show” as Denise Huxtable’s husband, Navy Lt. Martin Kendall, said he has wavered since, but he is still thinking about voting for Obama.
{snip}
Michael Steele, the Republican former lieutenant governor of Maryland who lost a Senate race there in 2006, said he is proud of Obama as a black man, but that “come November, I will do everything in my power to defeat him.” Electing Obama, he said, would not automatically solve the woes of the black community.
“I think people who try to put this sort of messianic mantle on Barack’s nomination are a little bit misguided,” he said.
John McWhorter, a self-described political moderate who is a senior fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute and a New York Sun columnist, said Obama’s Democratic Party victory “proves that while there still is some racism in the United States, there is not enough to matter in any serious manner. This is a watershed moment.”
{snip}
(Posted on June 16, 2008)
Comments
Black conservative talk show host Armstrong Williams has never voted for a Democrat for president. That could change this year with Barack Obama as the Democratic Party’s nominee………………Hmm I was just Listening to one of those Black conservative talk show host. He admonished anyone who refuses to vote for Barack Obama because of the color of his skin as being ignorant. Does that also apply to any black person who votes for Barack Obama because he is black.I say we have a huge number of ignorant people in this country white and black who are going to vote for Barack Obama. I will not vote for Barack Obama because he is black.I will vote for Ron Paul or Bob Barr because he is white.
Posted by Tony Soprano. at 6:29 PM on June 16
Black “conservatives” have been bought and paid for by the republicans. And their “conservatism” consists of opposition to abortion and gay rights, both positions more indicative of black church dogma than true conservatism.
Posted by at 6:29 PM on June 16
Armstrong and Watts were just token houseboys for the GOP shill machine. I’m glad they finally showed their true colors (no pun intended).
And Armstrong Williams is such the ingrate. Remember the scandal about the Education Department paying himself (ala payola) to promote No Child Left Behind?
I predict a new political party will form for white people’s interests. Both Dems and Reps have sold out white people for the last time.
Posted by Vito Danelli at 7:17 PM on June 16
Perhaps sensing the possibility of such a shift, Republican presidential candidate John McCain has made some efforts to lure black voters. He recently told Essence magazine that he would attend the NAACP’s annual convention next month, and he noted that he recently traveled to Selma, Ala., scene of seminal voting rights protests in the 1960s, and “talked about the need to include ‘forgotten Americans.”’
LOL wow that was funny, provide the laugh for today, haha oh my!
Posted by S & GS at 7:56 PM on June 16
The headline is oxymoronic. If they were really conservative, then they would have no ambivalence about Obama; the answer would be an easy No, because BHO is anything but conservative. This news does not surprise me, even if it shocks the pandering Stupid Party.
Not only can racial loyalty explain it, most black “Republicans” aren’t really Republicans, and certainly not conservative. They only joined the Republican Party because there are so many black Democrats, that it takes a long time and a lot of dues-paying to become somebody. Since (1) There are so few black Republicans, and (2) The party establishment is spending an insane amount of resources to attract them, a black man or woman who cuts his or her teeth in the Republican Party will become a celebrity far sooner. So what if they have to feign a little bit of neo- or pseudo-conservatism every once in awhile. That they turn right around and “jilt” McCain for Obama only seems surprising to the people that run the Stuck-on-Stupid Party.
Posted by Question Diversity at 8:08 PM on June 16
White democrats will vote republican in huge numbers, so the half dozen black republicans voting for obama only makes Amren look even better to Whites.
Posted by Lars at 8:16 PM on June 16
“proves that while there still is some racism in the United States, there is not enough to matter in any serious manner. This is a watershed moment.”
Great. So when can we dismantle racial preferences that discriminate against whites?
Posted by at 8:34 PM on June 16
“I don’t necessarily like his policies; I don’t like much that he advocates, but for the first time in my life, history thrusts me to really seriously think about it,” Williams said. “I can honestly say I have no idea who I’m going to pull that lever for in November. And to me, that’s incredible.”
So race trumps all. I don’t vote for a white guy if I don’t like his policies, any more than I vote for a black guy with policies I don’t like. Which is why, unlike this so-called black “conservative”, I am going to vote third party this time around.
Watts said he’s still a Republican, but he criticizes his party for neglecting the black community.
Well, both major parties have been neglecting the middle class white community for as long as I can remember. To our political masters we are merely the source of the tax dollars they spend on welfare recipients, Marxist universities, and a pointless world military empire.
Posted by WR the elder at 8:45 PM on June 16
“Watts said he’s still a Republican, but he criticizes his party for neglecting the black community.”
What’s that supposed to mean? I mean, now that we’re a nation of contentious tribes, do any other races say they’ve “been neglected?”
Why do blacks feel neglected, yet Hispanics do not? And what about Asians? Do they feel neglected, also?
The fact is there is no measurable level of racism or oppression against blacks in this country. But they ARE the ONLY group that has a long track record of failure and an inability to succeed, while racking up astounding crime rates.
Most all the Asians do well, including the Indians. Hispanics have high levels of semi-literacy, but even they do much, much better than blacks. In fact, they do so much better they’ve taken all the lower tier work away from blacks.
So, here it is 2008, and blacks are whining about the very things they have been whining about for decades. They’re giving the same excuses for failure as always, and they don’t seem to notice that they’re in last place and there’s more to the racial equation than whites. The country has 100 million non-whites right this minute and blacks represent only a third, or about 33 million. Though the other groups complain, their gripes aren’t even close to the level of black whining. Why do a very large percentage of the 67 million other non-whites do o.k., but blacks cannot? 67 million is a lot of people.
Of course, blacks complain that other races do better because they were never subjects of slavery. But does anybody believe that these other races would not succeed if their ancestors were slaves 150 years ago? I don’t think so. At least no one with half a brain will buy into anything so flimsy and ridiculous.
So what’s the probem? Why do blacks always complain that they need someone in office who will not “neglect” them? The answer, of course, is that they’re still trying to make ludicrous excuses for their inabilities to function on a par with everybody else in a first world nation, and they’re hoping that those who comprise the power structure will invoke even more give-away programs for blacks, which would include awarding more jobs they’re not qualified for; a large reparations amount for slavery; a dumbed down curriculum or an even looser grading and admittance program for schools, to name but a few things.
In short, they want given to them what everybody else has to work for. Well, I’m saying enough is enough. The many blacks already in positions they’re not qualified for cause me considerable problems from time to time, because of their ineptitude, so I don’t want to see them occupy more offices and slots just because they’re black.
If this Obamanation gets in, I look for a cast of characters appointed to positions who are such bizarre oddballs they will make the Clinton appointees seem like far right extremists, and, while they’re certain to screw up the country far more than what Bill and Jimmy have done, I seriously doubt that blacks will benefit from it very much in anything but the very short term, if at all.
I look for blacks to be whining just as loudly 8 years from now as they do right now, and I can’t see how their test scores and levels of success will change much at all. I mean, of course, if we can endure another 8 years without a violent eruption.
Posted by Ranger at 8:46 PM on June 16
This will be important to watch. Also important will be the Hispanic vote. There’s a lot of talk in the MSM about whether or not Hispanics will vote for Obama? If Hispanics do vote for Obama in large numbers, along with a large number of black Republicans, then this should be all the proof that Whites need that non-whites are actively voting against the interests of European Americans.
If this does happen, then we (“we” meaning people who care about the interests of Whites) need to really hit this point hard. We need to make it clear to Whites that non-whites see them as their political opponents. And we need to make Whites think about life under non-white rule.
******* White Nationalists for Obama 2008*******
Posted by WN4bHo at 9:10 PM on June 16
Shows the ultimate failure of Conservativism as a cause. Basically, the problem is this. Conservatives look at our democracy and see it as inherent in our system of government. But that is not true. All…every single last one, of the enlightened values that exemplify our system of government, are WHITE values. That system rests on a bedrock of white supremacy. And it was the INTENTION of our founding fathers, with the full knowledge of the true nature of democracy itself, that it be so.
Conservativism directly disputes this knowledge while attempting to implement the reality of this knowledge with institutions based on personal accountability. The problem is that the power of those institutions to do that rests completely within the will of the people that make up those institutions. And only whites will hold to those values while other races use lip service to the cause to infiltrate and then deconstruct the whole thing from within. In a very real, very direct manner, black conservatives are nothing more than black national socialists pretending to be something else until the time is right to shift the power away from democracy to black supremacism and the organized looting of our national wealth.
And that is EXACTLY what you are seeing with so called “black conservatives”. They never were conservatives at all. And there really is no such thing as conservativism…..only the values that are dominant when whites are dominant.
Or to put it another way. Once “black conservatives” are done stabbing the republican party in the back and elect Obama, our government will lose all interest in prosecuting and controlling black “criminals” who will then loot and pillage as they see fit.
Posted by at 9:20 PM on June 16
They are lying. They were gonna vote for Obama since day 1. Because he’s black.
Posted by at 9:59 PM on June 16
Haven’t we who lived through the ravages of the so-called Civil Rights movement known this would be the case if and when an African was on the ticket for President?
Yes, skin color is thicker than just about every other thing for even African Republicans.
And WE get called racists for promoting our cultural views?
Posted by Annoyed In Illinois at 10:15 PM on June 16
So what exactly is the platform of Senator Obama? Lets see.
(1) I’m for change that is firmly rooted in the traditions of the past. We are a new generation, a new way of shaking off the failed policies of the past to press on united. Together we can, yes we can!
(2) I’m for the immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq realizing that a definite time for withdrawal may not necessarily be in our best interest but that not withdrawing is definitely in our worst interst! What Bush has done is to spend trillions in a war which could have been better utilized to eliminate poverty and to provide a universal health care for all of our citizens! We need a change from the failed policies of Bush and the antiquated perspective of tunnel vision! We need change, yes we do, and yes we can!
(3) I’m for talking to terrorists since John Kennedy talked with Nikita Kruschev and he was more dangerous than Mahmood Ahmadi Najad ever thought about being. We need to take a fresh approach with a dialogue designed to find common ground; in short, what we need is change and I want to thank most of all, Al Gore, who is doing everything he can to leave our children a better planet. For those who want to borrow money from China, to buy oil from the Persian Gulf, to destroy the planet, we need change more than ever!
(4) We appreciate the sacrifice that John McCain has made in his service to his country; however, it is what he is going to be doing in the future that concerns us. John McCain is running for Bush’s third term, what we need is change. And, if you live in the City of New Orleans you know that elections matter and that change is important.
(5) It is inappropriate to suggest that simply because I was a member of a Trinity Church for over twenty years, or a member, with its Minister, who not only married me, but also, bapitised my children, should suggest, in and of itself, that either my wife, my family, or I, either agree or have agreed, with all of the potentially inappropriate positions that a racist press has ascribed to either my minsiter (now former minister) my church (now former church) or both, is totally inappropriate. To constantly run some comments, taken out of context, in the form of a loop to be run over and over, is designed to shift the emphasis from what we are trying to accomplish here i.e. change! What we need is a common effort, a common destiny, we are not a red state America, we are not a blue state America, but what we are, is the United States of American we know that change is on the way, yes it is, and yes we can!
(6) It is inappropriate to talk about my lack of experience in government. What is more important? To try a fresh appoach or to continue down the same tired road that we have been on for the last eight years? What we need to focus on here is change! Remember what Jack Frost said: “I took the road less traveled and that has made all the difference”!
(7) It is inappropriate to talk about my relationships with individuals that I might have known over thirty years ago and then to try to suggest that I might have been influenced by these persons at aometime, during my childhood, is totally inappropriate. To take such comments, totally out of context, and to then to try to suggest that I may still be influenced today is designed to to shift the emphasis from what is important today; and that, of course, is change.
(8) Change alone for the sake of change should never be employed by those advocating change, in an effort to change the fundamental purpose of change, and by changing in the process, those areas which need to be changed, and for which a new approach to change, through change, by change, and for change, can’t change!
Mark my words! If Senator Obama ever becomes President Obama there will not be enough left of the dollars of the hard working White Americans with which to make ……… change!
MoMO
Posted by MoMo at 10:29 PM on June 16
Oh my…this surely puts a crimp in the neoconservative partyline about all these black conservative icons like Watts and Co!! Not only do they seem, er…confused about their ideological leanings, but it seems RACE is a far bigger issue than ANY Neocon in creation would ever admit to at gunpoint! Oh what a tangled-web the movement-conservatives have woven. Little wonder it is an ideology dying on the vine…
Posted by Hank at 10:46 PM on June 16
They are all the same. Race trumps all. Except for Whites, that is…
Posted by at 11:10 PM on June 16
Armstrong Williams makes a reference to “history.” A lot of commentators are giving Obama a big boost by referring to his candidacy as “historical,” and to the moment as “historical.” It almost works subliminally— the idea comes across that this is that one chance people will have to make a big change in world civilization.
Unfortunately, this histrionic and self-congratulatory word will be repeated non-stop until the election.
Posted by Reader-1 at 12:04 AM on June 17
There is a double standard that I have noticed. Now we know that black Republicans will vote for a black Democrat, race is more important to them than political ideology. On the other hand, most black Democrats would vote for a white liberal over a black conservative. To blacks, the welfare state is more important than race.
Posted by Jay at 2:54 AM on June 17
One would only dream that someday America will awaken and began seeing all the faults that are so common with the annointed race, that maybe even the news media will began ignoring them and that they will become irrevelant. MLK had his dreams, when he wasn’t involved in drunken orgies w/prostitutes, and I have mine.
Posted by abc at 4:37 AM on June 17
“Watts said he’s still a Republican, but he criticizes his party for neglecting the black community.”
The only reason the GOP didn’t end affirmative action in 1995-96 was because Watts convinced Newt Gingrich, Buffoon, that ending quotas would alienate blacks.
Give ‘em and inch and they’ll take a yard.
Posted by Solly at 7:56 AM on June 17
DId you see the US Open golf game?
When the Afro-Asian Woods made his last putt to tie Mediate, the White spectators started high-fiving each other.
Do Blacks do that when the White boxer Klitchco knocks out the Black boxers? Get serious.
It does not surprise me that Black “conservatives” will vote for Obama. They really do not want to vote for a White, any White, for anything at all.
Whites, however, will vote for Obama. I don’t think this comes from a genetic defect; I think it is just mental softheadedness and the lack of having to struggle.
Posted by the Bookhead at 9:10 AM on June 17
I wouldn’t interpret black conservative votes going to Obama as an expression of pure racial solidarity.
More likely it’s a normal reaction to the candidacy of John McCain, a man of no real conviction who’s spent his entire career sticking his thumbs in the eyes of conservative Republicans and basking in the “maverick” designation by the MSM, which will turn on him like a pack of rabid jackals during the coming campaign.
McCain’s perhaps the most unappealing Republican presidential candidate of all time, outdoing even Bob Dole in this regard. Expect a record-low Republican turnout in November.
Posted by john at 9:30 AM on June 17
So…They are conservatives, Republicans and DON’T like Obama’s policies…yet they will vote for him BECAUSE he is BLACK!…funny how this is sugarcoated into everything but what it IS…RACISM!…if WHITES who claimed to be liberal Democrats stated they didn’t like McCain’s policies but were going to vote for him BECAUSE he is WHITE…those people would be branded as RACISTS…the BLACKS would be DEMANDING an apology from those people and DEMAND that they be FIRED!…
I am NOT surprised by this…with BLACKS…RACE TRUMPS EVERYTHING!
As for McCain attending the NAACP convention…addressing those “forgotten Americans”…I have two statements on that issue…PANDER!PANDER!PANDER!…and if he were REALLY concerned about addressing the TRUE FORGOTTEN AMERICANS he would be searching out the STRAIGHT,CHRISTIAN,WORKING CLASS…WHITES!…for it’s US that are the TRUE FORGOTTEN AMERICANS!
Posted by Suzan Donoghue at 11:15 AM on June 17
With the majority of intellectually challenged Blacks,skin-color is THEONLY QUALIFIER for what they consider a “good” president. So, predictably, they’ll slaver over their Mulatto Messiah, Barak Husein Obama.
That Obama HAS no practical qualifications, has nothing to recommend him other than his skin pigmentation — matters to them not the least. Jimmy Carter, in 1976, was running using his family wealth to buy his way into the White House. It did not take very long for America tor ealize the inept, well-intentioned buffoon they had elected. In 1980, they gave Carter the bum’s rush and sent him back to Plains, Georgia.
Does any one (with real brains) think Obama would be even an iota better than bumbling, fumbling Jimmy Carter. For a foreign policy, preaching his ‘need to unite’ drivel to the world. Probably consulting frog innards or whatever the witch doctors use to foretell the future in the event of a national or world crisis.
Granted McCain is pro-amnesty, pro-Open Border (AS IS OBAMA), but McCain, at least can tell his *-*-* from the proverbial hole in the ground. Unlike the esteemed Mr. Obama.
Posted by Fed Up at 11:52 AM on June 17
Does it surprise anyone that “conservative” blacks are going to vote for B. Hussein? B. Hussein, btw, happens to have the most liberal voting record in the Senate!
Conservative blacks who are going to vote for B. Hussein are protecting their EGI (ethnic genetic interest). Whites who support and plan on voting for B. Hussein are ethno-masochistic suicidal imbeciles….. most whites that support B. Hussein are college educated…..that doesn’t say too much about our overly touted higher average IQ, does it? But then again, a college education by today’s standards equates to an anti-white Marxist-indoctrinated robot.
Posted by a realist at 12:39 PM on June 17
This is sad, I find a great many “black conservatives” to be my best selections at times. I find that it takes quite a bit more courage to be a “black conservative” in today’s day than we would expect.
Posted by at 12:57 PM on June 17
In all the past Prez elections I’ve often heard people (Usually white liberal women) say of this or that Republican candidate “that guy scares/frightens. me….” I always dismissed those comments as effete, border line hysterics. However, Obama as Prez would scare the hell out of me!, a 71 yr old white Christian, hetero, USAF vet…
God bless America…
Posted by Mugwump at 1:08 PM on June 17
“John Kennedy talked with Nikita Kruschev and he was more dangerous than Mahmood Ahmadi Najad ever thought about being.”
Kruschev spent a few days talking with the comatose handicapped drug addict Kennedy and knew he was an ineffectual weakling with serious disabling medical problems.
One month later, Kruschev built the Berlin wall knowing that comatose drug addict Kennedy would not object. Compare Kennedy with Truman. Truman organized the Berlin airlifts in 1948 and kept Berlin free.
Posted by white nurse at 1:33 PM on June 17
Where in the WORLD is there a place controlled by blacks where people live in a civilized manner? No Place Is The Answer. Not in the WORLD, not in L.A.’s black area’s Not in Detroit, NO PLACE. And I can assure you this new fuax genius, black phoney won’t be the first to change that. Every word out of his families mouth is Po Ole black peoples, they sho be held back by the white mans.But if he is elected it won’t be blacks that put him in it will be white votes so it that happens we get what we deserve.
Posted by REzz at 1:36 PM on June 17
To John at 9:30 AM,
I think McCain is going to win big. I personally don’t like the guy but I’m fed up with the media hoopla surrounding Obama. Obama will raise my taxes where as McCain will keep them at status quo or actually lower them. Read their platforms. McCain is pro Second Amendment whereas Obama is not. Again, read their platforms on their websites.
Hence I’m going to vote McCain and I’m actually coming around to looking forward to it. After all, McCain will likely only be around 1 term anyways due to age. Whereas Obama will be around for probably 2 terms (8 years). No matter what catastrophe were to happen, the media would cover Obama’s mistakes and blame Bush and Republicans. So might as well vote McCain.
By the way, I’ve read that the Obama people are admitting they might need a new strategy because it appears they probably won’t be able to win Ohio, Penn and Florida. A few other states may be in play too. So the electorial college math doesn’t look very good for Obama.
Posted by RealityCheck at 2:33 PM on June 17
Hipanics are in last place. That’s why they are here.
Don’t expect serious efforts to advance them, other than the usual reminders that whites are racists.
Posted by at 2:56 PM on June 17
“Whites, however, will vote for Obama. I don’t think this comes from a genetic defect; I think it is just mental softheadedness and the lack of having to struggle.”
You could be onto something there. The most disadvantaged whites are often the biggest ‘racists’, and more likely to sense a disconnect between reality and the whole ‘blacks as victims’ machine. There’s a much greater certainty they’ve been real victims of these ‘victims’ too. The omnipresent BLACKS as victims machine has a pretty long reach however.
Posted by at 3:21 PM on June 17
“I wouldn’t interpret black conservative votes going to Obama as an expression of pure racial solidarity.” Posted by john at 9:30 AM on June 17
Well, I agree with your post, John, except for the above. Yes, McCain is a horrendous candidate, the worst one we could have running against the Obamanation, but believe me, my friend, with non-whites, especially blacks, race trumps everything with them. The non-whites we have in this country don’t care one whit for anything that might benefit the country, unless it is good for their tribe. It is just their race that’s important to them. Every decision they make is based on how it benefits their group as a whole and never how it might effect the entire population.
Posted by at 3:25 PM on June 17
“On the other hand, most black Democrats would vote for a white liberal over a black conservative. To blacks, the welfare state is more important than race.”
Not to discount what you are saying at all… but something like this happened in a city where I used to live. A young white democrate was in a city council primary race with around 6 other black democrats. The white guy won. The results were simply voided. They got together (democrats) at a meeting and decided to field one of the other candidates in the general election. Probably the next highest vote getter.
Posted by at 3:30 PM on June 17
“Whites, however, will vote for Obama. I don’t think this comes from a genetic defect; I think it is just mental softheadedness and the lack of having to struggle.”
The thought control of the last fifty years isn’t the major issue?
Posted by mother trucker at 3:49 PM on June 17
“And we need to make Whites think about life under non-white rule.”
We have been under non-White rule, for around nine and one-half decades…
Posted by uncle cremus at 3:52 PM on June 17
More than 95% of blacks will vote for Obama imo.
Posted by unemployed WASP at 4:32 PM on June 17
Armstrong’s got jungle fever!
Posted by at 4:43 PM on June 17
Now, does anyone want to talk about J.C. Watts as a candidate again, for anything? Condi? Saint Colinpowell? So far, Only Tom Sowell and Walter Williams seem to have resisted the temptation, and I’m praying for their continuing strength.
Posted by Machifer at 5:21 PM on June 17
When will people learn? Race is genetic. Its brings a mental pattern and emotional pattern that can never be over ridden.
Only whites are gullible enought to believe blacks are like them but just need more opportunities etc. They are not. Give an angry black man every opportunity and status symbol you can
and you only have a rich, powerful, angry black man.
Posted by at 10:15 PM on June 17
This is just one more way that blacks make a mockery of their “civil rights”. If what ails blacks is genetic, then it would make sense that conservative blacks would suffer from it as much as liberal ones - and we now find out they do.
Posted by HideouslyWhite at 10:40 PM on June 17
Maybe a black president will wake up white america. What’s it going to take, white people???
Posted by at 11:29 PM on June 17
Obama will win 98 percent of the black vote. And the other two percent will have been blacks who accidentally pulled the wrong lever.
Posted by Jack Aubrey at 5:26 PM on June 19
“I predict a new political party will form for white people’s interests”
That has been predicted since the Civil War. It’ll never happen. Skinheads do not make for good party members.
Posted by at 1:09 AM on June 25