German State Governor Wants Crackdown on ‘Criminal Young Foreigners’
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A top member of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives has said Germany has too many criminal young foreigners and that immigrants must stick to the rules of Germany’s “Christian-Occidental” culture, in remarks that echo the rhetoric of Germany’s far right. The Social Democrats and Green Party have accused him of cheap campaign rhetoric.
Roland Koch, facing a tough re-election battle as governor of the western state of Hesse in January, told mass circulation newspaper Bild Zeitung: “How much are we prepared to take from a small proportion of violent youths, who frequently have a foreign background?”
Koch was responding to the brutal assault on a 76-year-old German man by two young men, one Greek and one Turkish, in Munich on December 20. The pensioner had asked them to stop smoking on a subway train, where smoking is prohibited.
They called him a “Shit German” and spat at him, then followed him out onto the platform and beat him up, kicking him in the head. He was taken to hospital with a fractured skull and internal bleeding in his brain but is now recovering. A number of people witnessed the attack but did not intervene.
The incident was filmed on security cameras and led to a nationwide outcry during Christmas, with calls for tougher sentencing for young offenders and the expulsion of foreign criminals. The 17-year-old Greek man and the 20-year-old Turk, who both live in Munich, have since been arrested and both have a long list of prior offences. The 20-year-old man is a Turkish citizen who was born in Munich while the Greek man immigrated to Germany six years ago.
The case has re-opened a decades-old debate about immigration in Germany, which has some 15 million people with an immigrant background, around 18 percent of the population.
Support for Koch’s Christian Democrats has been declining and recent opinion polls show they may lose their absolute majority in the January 27 state election. Koch may end up having to govern in a coalition with the liberal Free Democrats or he may even lose to the opposition Social Democrats, who are currently in a coalition government with Christian Democrats in Berlin.
The outspoken Koch has tapped into public sentiment on immigration before, winning a 1999 state election after he launched a petition against government plans to introduce dual citizenship for foreigners living in Germany.
His latest quote: “We have too many criminal young foreigners” made a banner front-page headline in the top-selling Bild on Friday. “We have spent too long showing a strange sociological understanding for groups that consciously commit violence as ethnic minorities. People who live in Germany must behave properly and refrain from using their fists. That’s how one behaves in a civilized country,” Koch told Bild.
He said Germany wasn’t a classic country of immigration such as Canada or Australia. “In our country we don’t get many cultures meeting to form a new one. Germany has had a Christian-Occidental culture for centuries. Foreigners who don’t stick to our rules don’t belong here.”
The opposition in Hesse was quick to attack Koch’s comments. The general secretary of the Social Democrats in the state, Norbert Schmitt, said Koch was engaging in campaign rhetoric. “He wants to detract from weaknesses in his own state by making big statements,” Schmitt told FOCUS Online, adding that Koch’s government had cut police funding.
Tarek Al-Wazir, head of the opposition Green Party in the Hesse state assembly, said Koch was “exploiting a despicable crime for cheap campaigning.”
Germany’s Justice Ministry rejected calls for tougher sentencing of young criminals and said the existing laws were strict enough. Critics have also pointed out that many so-called “foreign” criminals are in fact born and bred in Germany to immigrant families and therefore cannot simply be expelled.
Koch’s comments echo the rhetoric of the far-right, anti-immigrant National Democratic Party which regularly rails against criminal foreigners. He made no mention in the Bild interview of the spate of assaults on immigrants and people from ethnic minorities by German neo-Nazis, especially in eastern Germany since unification in 1990.
(Posted on December 31, 2007)
Comments
First of all, Greeks are White. Second, foreigners do not belong in Germany period. “Rule following” foreigners, while abstaining from assaulting the native populace, are still foreign and cannot assimilate if they are not White and Christian. They will eventually grow in political power and demand special recognition and privileges. Germany is for the Germans, France is for the French, and Maine is now apparently for the somalis.
Posted by Flamethower at 12:37 AM on January 1
The biggest parties in germany are the Social Democrats (SPD) and the CDU.
The problem here is, that the Christian Democrats (CDU) share the responsibility with the other parties.
They brought this situation into being by importing millions of foreigners from the late 1950’s onwards. Now there are 15 million people with a “migratory background”, that means immigrants (both naturalized and not-yet-naturalized) and their descendants. Additionaly we have a few million illegal immigrants.
The allegedly “conservative” “Christian Democrats” are therefore part of this mess.
Currently they are just barking loudly, because we have state parliament elections in January (Hesse, Lower Saxony) and February (city-state of Hamburg).
Posted by E. Burger at 4:34 AM on January 1
“That’s the real problem right there, both in Germany and in the US. That is what has to change before there can be any improvement of the problem or even admitting what “the problem” is. Lack of racial consciousness, is caused by cowardice.”
If a german / white would have intervened both attackers would have just needed to say, that racial slurs were used. Now guess, who would have been imprisoned?
Any white who has to fight an immigrant regardless of justified or not, is given an immidiate transport to Karlsruhe in chains and diaper. Any “hatecrime” is automatically forwarded to the highest german prosecutor in Karlsruhe.
And as you all know, only whites can commit hatecrimes…
Posted by Alexander at 9:37 AM on January 1
Brendan at 10:59 PM on December 31 wrote:
“I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Greek” kid was actually an Albanian, Turk, or Gypsy who happened to be living in Greece.”
Given the fact neither “kid” was identified by name (or photo) in the article I’m inclined to agree with you. This is a cheap but sadly highly effective way to enervate organized resistance in White countries against non-White invasions by using the tried and true tactic of “divide and conquer.” Just read the first two postings to see what I mean.
Posted by at 11:42 AM on January 1
Maybe the onlookers decided the best thing is for this event to be so tragic that letting the beating go on will only raise awareness of the situation in Germany. sarcasm imply
Posted by Lars at 12:28 PM on January 1
“A number of people witnessed the attack but did not intervene.”
That’s possibly the worst part of the story - the fact that others, presumably other white Germans…
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Yes, I thought so too. That was perhaps the most disturbing and shocking aspect of it.
But on further thought, given the large number of non-Germans living in today’s multiculti “Germany”, who knows what sort of people those onlookers were? The key word was “presumably”. We shouldn’t presume too much.
Posted by browser at 12:47 PM on January 1
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Greek” kid was actually an Albanian, Turk, or Gypsy who happened to be living in Greece.
Yes. That seems to me like a very good possibility. Official papers don’t record the actual ethnicity (a no-no) but only the last recorded address — the PLACE from which he came or was born. (It’s the place, not the race.)
Deport the entire family back to Turkey or wherever they came from.
Posted by Brendan
I concur with you wholeheartedly! You have to start holding the ENTIRE FAMILY responsible for their offspring’s behavior, just as Switzerland is proposing to do (to the horror of leftist Europe). Only that solution will be effective.
At present, with gypsies and such, they send out the youngest members to commit the worst crimes, knowing that if caught, the punishment will not be severe or that the children will be remanded to their families … the very families who trained them!
[Btw, many of these Balkan groups have a rather tribal mentality and engage in crime as a family enterprise (though I’m not referring to this specific case). So if they engage in crime as a family activity, then why shouldn’t they be punished for it also as a family?]
Posted by browser at 12:49 PM on January 1
“First of all, Greeks are White.
Germany is for the Germans, France is for the French….”
Posted by Flamethower
………………………………………..
Germany is for the Germans? France is for the French? Tell that to Sarkozy! I think you meant to say “should be” rather than “is”. Hairsplitting, but the distinction here is between the real and the ideal.
Most Greeks and Turks are indistinguishable or barely so. (Note that I said “most”.) Of course, Greeks and Turks, both of them, would be outraged at that statement, but it’s true nonetheless.
I once asked a Turkish airline steward if he spoke Greek — a bad faux pas that I still regret. He was very insulted! (Actually, I thought that he was Greek, but thank goodness I didn’t say that! )
Remember that all of what is now called “Turkey” was once Greek. Initially, they were very different peoples. Though some Greeks held out, a great many more Greeks were absorbed and assimilated by the conquering Turks. They had little choice. The Moslem custom of polygamy greatly aided in this (in making the Turks more Greek). Also, centuries of Turkish rule have left an indelible imprint on modern “Greek” culture. One can sympathize with the Greeks, but there is less difference between them than they both like to think.
Posted by ghw at 1:28 PM on January 1
Something about this story seems very odd to me. There is VERY, VERY BAD BLOOD between Greeks and Turks. Was this guy REALLY ETHNICALLY GREEK? There are a lot of muslims, Albanians, Turks etc, who try to ply themselves off as “Greek” like Gypsies being labelled as “Romanians”. Maybe someone could pursue this further.
Posted by at 2:33 PM on January 1
“Something about this story seems very odd to me. There is VERY, VERY BAD BLOOD between Greeks and Turks. Was this guy REALLY ETHNICALLY GREEK?
Maybe someone could pursue this further.”
…………………………………………
While Greeks and Turks are not fond of each other — IN THOSE COUNTRIES, I suspect that in Germany where both grew up as outsiders, and thus sharing a common bond, they would tend to see Germans as “the enemy”, rather than each other. In this setting, they are allies (against the natives).
The ancient squabbles of their grandparents are irrelevant to them compared to their resentment of the Germans all around them. The Germans are the “haves” and they are the “have nots”.
This resentment and jealousy are just basic human psychology, that of outsiders against insiders. Germany (and all the European countries) should have considered this prior to admitting all these unassimilable people. It was so, so predictable!
I don’t know if this explains anything for sure, but it’s just a thought.
Posted by ghw at 4:03 PM on January 1
Other posters have rightly questioned the “Greekness” of the “Greek” attacker. I too would be very surprised if he was a traditional white Greek. Greeks, even their peasant classes, have made excellent immigrants to US, Australia, and certain European countries like France. Their crime rates are low (like I said — they’re WHITE), and almost never of the moronic, barbaric, senior-citizen-bashing street-crime variety like this.
A much more likely explanation is that there’s something Der Spiegel isn’t telling us about the “Greek” perp’s actual ethnicity and/or religion. I’d bet a big stack of euros that he shares more blood with Mohammed Atta than with Telly Savalas.
Posted by The Incredible Shrinking White Man at 4:49 PM on January 1
I visited Cyprus nearly 10 years ago and while in Nicosia went on an excursion to the wall that divides the city between the Turks and Greeks.
I remember chatting with a couple of Greek soldiers manning the Greek side and I told them I would happily sign the campaign to get the Turks out of their land which I proceeded to do.
Luckily, many parts of Greece have largely remained ancient Greek in their demographics. It’s a question of tracing who is who via DNA identification, in order to decide who is and isn’t a legitimate indigenous citizen of Greece and her enclaves.
I believe also, the Turks should be sent packing back into Asia Minor, particularly Iraq along with their Kurdish brethren, once and for all.
Posted by A Swain at 5:09 PM on January 1
I say this….muslims are like blacks….once they embed themselves in some city or country…you can’t get them out..unless you exterminate them…kinda like killing lice and nits….Germany …you will have this problem unless you get rid of them….NOW!!
Posted by lydia at 5:38 PM on January 1
I think the neo-Nazis thought they were Turks or Arabs, because some Greeks look like Turks or Arabs to northern Europeans (especially those who have never been to southern Europe.)
Posted by Archimedes at 11:10 PM on December 31
500 years of inbreeding with Turks would account for that. Greeks are no longer the master race of the ancient world, dysgenics has seen to that. A warning from history if ever there was one.
Posted by at 5:44 PM on January 1
The 17-year-old Greek man and the 20-year-old Turk, who both live in Munich, have since been arrested and both have a long list of prior offences. The 20-year-old man is a Turkish citizen who was born in Munich while the Greek man immigrated to Germany six years ago.
And if the younger man did this in the USA, our mainline news media would call him “youth” or “teen.”
I do remember at one point early last year, a reporter for the Davenport (Iowa) Leader referred to a black 15-year old murder convict as a “man” in his article about him being sentenced. I e-mailed him thanking him for not mollycoddling the murder convict using weasel nouns. IIRC, the reporter’s last name is Krans. Since he’s in Davenport, Iowa, I imagine he’s relatively young, and if he is, I hope he gets to move on to bigger and better newspapers.
Posted by St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister at 5:46 PM on January 1
It’s not true that people witnessed the beating and did not intervene. Only in the train, when the perpetrators attacked the old man verbally and spat into his face, there were witnesses. The victim stood up and went to another seat in the train and the perpetrators stopped their verbal attacks. Only after the old man got out of the train they followed him and attacked him physically and brutally. This was not witnessed by others but only by a survey cam.
Here you can have a look at the video
Posted by Anna at 8:28 PM on January 1
Something about this story seems very odd to me. There is VERY, VERY BAD BLOOD between Greeks and Turks.
The actual situation is a little more subtle than that:
Turks and Greeks while hating each other when in their native lands, may put aside their differences when in a foreign land - simply because they look so similar to each other. Greeks and Turks, as a previous poster has said, are virtually indistinguishable, both visually and genetically. Just one very salient point of similarity: the national IQ of Greece is 92, that of Turkey 91. The only thing that makes Greeks ‘white’ and Turks ‘non-white’ is the former are Christian, the latter Muslim.
When a Greek and a Turk meet in Germany, under some circumstances old country rivalries may still re-assert themselves, in other circumstances Greeks and Turks will look past historical differences, and instead notice that racially they are a lot more similar to each other than either are to blonde Germans. And white Germans will treat both Greek and Turk with similar disdain. Therefore young German-born Greeks and Turks in Germany may well feel they have common cause against ‘racist’ Germans.
Similarly many American-born Korean and Japanese identify as Asian American - their common yellowness overrides old country antagonisms.
I knew this American-born Sunni Muslim in college. While Sunnis and Shiites hate each other in Pakistan and Iraq, this fellow was well disposed to all Muslims, both Sunni and Shiite - simply because he was in a non-Muslim country and any Muslim, at least, is better than a non-Muslim. No doubt if he ever returned to his ancestral homeland - Pakistan, he would be force to view things in a very different light.
Posted by at 8:34 PM on January 1
Can anyone post a photograph of this ‘Greek’ so we can see for ourselves. I’ve learned to be very distrustful of MSM reporting on these types of matters. The Greek people I’ve known in my life were all good solid White people. Just curious.
Posted by at 1:42 AM on January 2
I agree with 8:34 January 1.
“Luckily, many parts of Greece have largely remained ancient Greek in their demographics. It’s a question of tracing who is who via DNA identification, in order to decide who is and isn’t a legitimate indigenous citizen of Greece and her enclaves.”
The above statement is complete historical bunk. Greece was utterly depopulated in the 7th and 8th centuries. The old Greek race was wiped out and replaced by inferior stock. Contemporary Greece is only marginally better off than Turkey, and that wealth is mainly from EU handouts. Germany should rid itself of both Greeks and Turks. In my view, it was a mistake to admit Greece to the EU: Greece has not contributed ANYTHING to European civilisation since the time before Christ. Is THAT enough evidence to show that they are no longer worthy of the title “White”?
Posted by Topkea at 7:45 AM on January 2
Above someone stated that “Greeks are white”. Not true … at least according to leftist newspaper reporters. “Greek” can simply mean “he has/had a Greek passport”.
To a leftist, “Irish music” can be African Kikuyu animal skin drum thumping as long as the Kikuyu drummer managed to flee to Ireland and get an Irish passport.
Posted by The Man at 12:30 PM on January 2
Greece was utterly depopulated in the 7th and 8th centuries. The old Greek race was wiped out and replaced by inferior stock. Contemporary Greece is only marginally better off than Turkey, and that wealth is mainly from EU handouts. Germany should rid itself of both Greeks and Turks. In my view, it was a mistake to admit Greece to the EU: Greece has not contributed ANYTHING to European civilisation since the time before Christ.
Topkea
Your words are harsh, but true.
And this was true even long before the 7th and 8th centuries. I can’t recall the exact statistics I’ve read, but the fact is that even in classical times, before conquest by Rome, the number of slaves (ie. foreigners) in cities like Athens exceeded the number of citizens. [They, too, had succumbed to the lure of cheap foreign labor!]
The Greeks had burned themselves out, even BC, with constant internecine wars that had bled them dry. By then, an exhausted, disunited, Greece was ready to fall into Roman hands. Despite their genius in other things, the one thing the Greeks could not manage to do was get along among themselves. Then came the Roman Empire and the inevitable mixing that empires bring; then came 1000 years of Byzantine Empire and more mixing (leaving them cut off from the West, btw, but attached to Egypt and North Africa, Asia, and the Near East); then came the Ottoman Empire, Turkish domination, and more mixing with imported peoples and slaves from everywhere. If would be a miracle if any shred of DNA from ancient Greece remains!
For more on this, just go to the current article on Gobineau, whose theories on racial erosion and civilizational decline explained it all.
Posted by ghw at 1:02 PM on January 2
Can anyone post a photograph of this ‘Greek’ so we can see for ourselves.
I didn’t find a photograph of him in German media and google, propably due to the special protection of minor criminals from the public. There are special courts for minors in Germany (and the trials are not public) and special prisons as well. The age of legal majority is at 18. Minors are people between 14 and 18, children under 14 cannot be put on trial. Persons of full age between 18 and 21 can be treated as adults or as minors at court according to the judge’s valuation. 80% are considered as minors. Even in case of massmurder a minor cannot be sentenced to more than 10 years.
His first name is “Spiridon” and that sounds rather Greek.
There is a small minority of Greeks in Germany (much less than Turks) and they are amiable people and not known for hostility towards Germans or above-average violence. There are just a few bad apples in every basket. I thin, this incident won’t hurt the good relations between Germans and our Greek European brothers.
I don’t know if a person from a EU-membership country such as Greece can be expelled. The Turk can probably not be expelled, because he has a three months old anchor-baby with a German “lady”.
Posted by Anna at 2:07 PM on January 2
Topkea;
Greece was the center of the Byzantine empire until 1453. Like all the Balkan peoples their decline began with the Ottoman conquest.
Posted by at 2:29 PM on January 2
“The above statement is complete historical bunk. Greece was utterly depopulated in the 7th and 8th centuries.”Posted by Topkea at 7:45 AM on January 2
Topkea
I don’t know much about Greece, so you are saying that the whites were killed or just died out? Is this what’s happening in America today?
Posted by Disgusted at 3:12 PM on January 2
What Germany, what EVERY White nation needs to do is to enact a “two strikes and you’re out” law. One offense, you pay the price of your crime. For the second offense, you do your time, then are DEPORTED! If you attempt re-entry, the crime should call for a mandatory 20-year-prison term, serving the state at whatever hard labor the state dictates!
The idea of a White nation coddling immigrants who can’t leave their criminal tendencies behind is simply unconscionable. Wake Up, Germany. Wake Up, All White Nations. Drive the criminal element out and keep them out!
Posted by Fed Up at 5:24 PM on January 2
Rise German people rise!! You have a right to sovereignty and only have to look to the USA and Africa to find your future co-existance with the foreigners if you do not act to take your homeland back!
Posted by Elrey Jones at 6:24 PM on January 2
From a genetic standpoint, Greeks are most closely related to southern Italians/Sicilians (primarily descendants of Latinized Greeks) and to a lesser extent Turks from Western Anatolia (partially descended from Islamized Greeks). Modern Greeks are probably as much descendants of the ancient Greeks as modern Britons are of ancient Britons (the genetic impact of the Turks in Greece is probably as low or lower than that of the Vikings and Normans in the UK.)
Culturally Greeks are influenced somewhat by the Muslim Turks(food, music, etc) but Greeks have more in common with Catholic southern Italians (as well as with Armenians, Serbs and other Orthodox peoples of Southeastern Europe) than with the Turks.
If one defines Western culture based on Judeo-Christian religion and Greco-Roman founding civilization, Greeks are definitely part of Western culture.
With a few exceptions (such as the sad idiot in this article) Greeks are generally successful and assimilate well in Western countries (US, Australia, Canada, UK). In this respect they are the exact opposite of Turks.
Posted by Archimedes at 9:36 PM on January 2
Anna:
Thank you for that link. As can be seen from the video the guy is cowardly sucker-punched from behind. The Turk certainly looks like one but there was no photo of the ‘Greek’. This makes me a bit suspicous if he really was Greek. A lot of non-Europeans like Turks, Kurds, muslims, mid-easterners and sometimes Gypsies or Albanians try to pass themselves off as “Greek” so I have some reservations about the story. Just my opinion.
Posted by at 11:59 PM on January 2
Rise German people rise!!You have a right to sovereignty…..Posted by Elrey Jones at 6:24 PM on January 2
The hubris in remarks such as these is just unbelievable.If you as an American, member of a hyperpower, feel impotent to affect events in your own country, why in the world do you expect Gemans to take control in theirs?It is astonishing to see pithy bromides dispensed such as this after several posters have already alluded to the fact that ordinary white people,regardless of nationality, have NO SAY in the direction that their politicians lead them. In east asia ( where I’m originally from ) any politician advocating such self-destructive immigrant/multicult platforms would be in extreme peril of his life. We spontaneously erupt in bloody riots in the streets for much, much less provocation.
Posted by at 1:03 AM on January 3
“He said Germany wasn’t a classic country of immigration such as Canada or Australia.”
It sounds like he’s bought into the leftist myth. Both Canada and Australia had discriminatory immigration policies to keep out non-whites, and these were only relaxed a few decades ago.
The multi-racial experiment has been a disaster for both countries.
Posted by at 1:13 AM on January 3
“Modern Greeks are probably as much descendants of the ancient Greeks as modern Britons are of ancient Britons “
Archimedes
In other words, hardly at all.
“Culturally, Greeks are influenced somewhat by the Muslim Turks (food, music, etc)”
Yes, they are culturally very similar. But in this case, I would guess that the Turks (being incomers to the region) were more influenced by Greek food, music, and culture. (eg. they would’t have been raising eggplant and eating fish on the steppes of Central Asia, where they came from). Also, they took many wives from the conquered peoples, and those wives would have raised the children (imparting to them their culture).
Posted by ghw at 1:51 AM on January 3
Topkea: I don’t know much about Greece, so you are saying that the whites were killed or just died out? Is this what’s happening in America today?
Posted by Disgusted
I think they were killed off by internal warfare and gradually displaced by imported slaves and others who were more fertile. Also barbarian migrations.
Posted by at 1:52 AM on January 3
“The above statement is complete historical bunk. Greece was utterly depopulated in the 7th and 8th centuries.”Posted by Topkea at 7:45 AM on January 2
Topkea
I don’t know much about Greece, so you are saying that the whites were killed or just died out? Is this what’s happening in America today?
Posted by Disgusted at 3:12 PM on January 2
To my knowledge, Disgusted, and according to historiography in this field, the Slavic, Herulic and Turkic (1st wave Bulgars) invasions of the 7-8th centuries caused a collapse in Balkan agriculture. This destroyed the old Illyrian races and utterly depopulated grace (reliant on food exports from abroad) because of the destruction of trade routes. They were, in that sense, wiped out, as is happening in South Africa today, by civilisationally inferior but numerically superior foes.
Greek decline, however, was a long process. Those who say that 1453 was the time when it all went wrong forget that the Byzantine Empire was an Oriental autocracy of the worst sort since the emergence of Islam. Byzantium contributed nothing, but merely kept up the old Roman laws, Greek philosophy and Christianity. In that respect, they were somewhat better than the Turks, but go to Greece nowadays and see how many Plato, Pericles and Euclid you find.
Greeks also have little to do with Sicilians. Sicilians are of mixed stock, but did not suffer the disastrous depopulation of Greece and had a genetic boost from a massive influx of Longobard and Norman blood. Yet…Sicily is poor and very North African in many ways, so much so that Northern and Central Italians despise them. Why then, do we hold on to the fiction that Greeks, a people of a genetic stock more dubious than even the Sicilians, are so much better than Turks?
Posted by Topkea at 3:47 AM on January 3
From personal experience, I can attest that modern Greeks are perhaps the most intelligent and sharp-minded people I have met.
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 6:50 AM on January 3
To clear up one point, the word ‘Turk’ when used ethnographically can mean absolutely anything.
Perhaps the best definition is to use ‘Turk’ to denote its original and truest meaning ie the Seljuks from Turkestan in central Asia - who are unmistakenly of the Mongolian race, posessing the features thatdistinguish that race ie the chracteristic eye fold, the yellowish skin, black coarse hair, middling staure.This typus still exists in central Asia in its purest form and even today can be disinguished in the features of a siggnificant percentage of Turks from Istanbul for instance.
As we know, the Ottoman Empire was a vast polyglot accumulation of many different ethnic types from blond, blue eyed Slavs, to brown skinned Arabs and Egyptians, including Armenians, Kurds, Albanians,Greeks,Levantines, Chechens, Georgians etc.
Over the course of centuries all peoples of the Empirewere brought to western Anatolia where a great deal of race-mixing took place, giving today’s ‘Turkish’ types - that can differ so much phentotypically from those who closely resemble White Europeans, to those who are wholly semitic in appearance.
Mustapha Kemal for instance had the brightest blue eyes that would distinguish a German or a Pole.
To speak of typical ‘Turkish type’ is nonsense.
Posted by Peter Williams at 7:06 AM on January 3
Interesting discussion on whether Greeks are white, Turks are white. I think that when it comes to the swarthier Caucasoids, what determines white is religion. Christian you are in, Muslim you are out. Thus Armenians and Greeks are white (although not to Russian skinheads), while Persians and Turks are non-white.
Australia under the white-Australia policy accepted Christian Lebanese as white. And the Christian Lebanese have by-and-large assimilated seamlessly into the Australian mainstream. The Cronulla riots, Sydney rapes etc were perpetrated by Muslim Lebanese.
In some cases even Muslim Arabs, in very small numbers, can assimilate well into Western countries. Argentina is one white country which has absorbed small-scale Islamic immigrantion with relatively few problems. Argentines even elected one to be president - Carlos Menem. Anyone looking at Carlos Menem would think he was of Southern European descent, not Syrian Muslim.
Trying to parse and catalogue the genetic makeup of Mediterraneans to determine who is ‘white’ and who is ‘non-white’ is really a waste of time. Religion provides the answer, and religion is also certainly the best indicator in deciding which of these various Caucasoid groups will fit best into White societies.
Posted by at 7:09 AM on January 3
From personal experience, I can attest that modern Greeks are perhaps the most intelligent and sharp-minded people I have met.
Posted by Kenelm Digby
Then why is their country a mess, little better than Turkey? And why do they have to go to your country to be successful?
Posted by at 2:30 PM on January 3
As we know, the Ottoman Empire was a vast polyglot accumulation of many different ethnic types….
Over the course of centuries all peoples of the Empire were brought to western Anatolia where a great deal of race-mixing took place, giving today’s ‘Turkish’ types ….
To speak of typical ‘Turkish type’ is nonsense.
Posted by Peter Williams
—- —- —- —- —-
I basically agree with what P. Williams says. He’s cdertainly right about the amount of mixing that takes place as a result of empires. (Just see New York, London, or Paris today!)
But I disagree that there is no general “type”. Despite the chaotic population of London, for example, you still have an “English type” (however rare nowadays). The same can be said of many others. There are Irishmen, Spaniards, Swedes and Jews who may vary very widely. Many of them you’d never guess. But you still have a “typical” Irish, Spanish or Jewish type — although not everyone among them conforms to it.
Posted by at 2:44 PM on January 3
“Interesting discussion on whether Greeks are white”
“I think that when it comes to the swarthier Caucasoids, what determines white is religion. “
Posted at 7:09AM
………………………………………..
In participating in it, I never considered it to be a debate over whether Greeks are white. (Of course, they are.) For me, it was only a discussion on how much they do or don’t resemble Turks — culturally and visually. (They do).
You are right that many have conflated religion with race. (The Mediterranean, due to its long history of empires, slavery and conquest, has been called by anthropologists “racially chaotic”.) But if it’s so, that religion is the ultimate determinant, then if you convert and change your religion, have you changed your race too? Obviously not.
Posted by at 3:05 PM on January 3
” religion is also certainly the best indicator in deciding which of these various Caucasoid groups will fit best into White societies. Posted by at 7:09 AM on January 3 “
Here’s the bad news, my friend: Christianity took root most effectively in whites, because whites were genetically, constitutionally receptive to its message. The jews, arabs, and east asians, for example, are violently opposed to it. The very elements that make whites feel guilt over their (purported) treatment of other hostile tribes, the very impulse that makes them take food from their own children to give to others, these are, in Darwinian terms, destructive dead-ends for the groups that practice it.
Christianity is a DYSFUNCTIONAL religion for our particular environment. ( It may do just fine on another planet or parallel universe, however ). It facilitates the genetic death of its adherents. This is why classical Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism is so hostile to the precepts of Christianity.
Posted by at 5:34 PM on January 3
Your comments about Greeks and Sicilians show your ignorance of Mediterranean history, Topkea. Please tell me where you got your information about Greek and Italian history.
Eastern Sicily had little to do with the Normans and Longobards (who settled in the western interior and around Palermo). The population of the modern-day province of Messina remained Greek-speaking until Spanish rule in the 14th or 15th centuries, and parts of Calabria and Puglia were Greek-speaking until the 19th century.
Also, note that Y-chromosome studies show significant Neolithic influence in Greece and Southern Italy (particularly haplogroups J2 and E3b). In Sicily, haplogroups R1b and I1a (common among Northwestern Europeans) are less frequent than you might expect if Sicilians were predominantly descended from Normans and Longobards.
And may I add that it was the Byzantine Empire, as much of an “Oriental autocracy” as it may have been, that preserved ancient Greek philosophy and science during the Western Dark Ages (the role of the Arabs in this has been exaggerated, never mind the Irish.) Greek learning, transmitted by exiles from Constantinople, helped influence the Italian Renaissance. And the Byzantine Empire, prior to the Fourth Crusade, provided a bulwark against Islamic expansion further into Europe.
Posted by Archimedes at 10:25 PM on January 3
I appreciated the comments by both Archimedes and Topkea. I found them both to be well informed and enlightening. They shouldn’t quarrel. They both know their stuff.
To defend Topkea for a moment: he ever said that Sicilians were “predominantly” descended from Lombards or Normans, only that those elements were there in the passing parade of humanity. I never interpreted it otherwise.
In fact, I’m sure the real Normans, far from home and thinly stretched out across many new possessions, were numerically very few — only the nobles. But anyone working for the Normans was a “Norman” in the view of the locals; and it only figures that every Norman knight or nobleman would have been accompanied by hundreds of Anglo-Saxon serfs. Hence, I wouldn’t look for much Norman DNA there. Saxon maybe.
But I won’t argue with Archimedes either. It’s obvious that someone with that name must know something about eastern Sicily!
Posted by ghw at 11:39 PM on January 3
To the poster of 2:30PM,
If someone has ever done the research, then I have no doubt he wil find that ethnic Greeks are amongst the very top, or not at the top, of all nationalities and races (including Jews, Armenians, Japanese, Chinese etc), in terms of high achievement in the USA, for instance, when you consider such things as wealth per head, educational achievement and professional qualifications.
The wealth of Greek ship-owners is legendary.
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 7:34 AM on January 4
Anyway, I very much doubt if Greece is pooere economically than the United Kingdom, despite what ‘official figures’ tell you.
Due to the EU, Greeks have had ‘open-door’ access to the UK for years (ie they can come and go completely unmolested by authority, just like a native Briton).
Many university students have availed themselves of opportunities at UK universities, but after studying they all go home.
But one thing for sure - no Greeks since the early 1980s have settled in Britai permanently as workers with their families.This can only indicate that life in Greece is better than life in the UK.
The great wave of Greek Cypriots that emigrated in the 1950s and 60s have largely sold up their businesses (most were barbers or cafe owners)and gone back home to retire.
No young Greek Cypriot would even consider coming to England.
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 7:52 AM on January 4
“I’m sure the real Normans, far from home and thinly stretched out across many new possessions, were numerically very few”
In fact, even in the conquest of England (a country far larger than the Duchy of Normandy) the Normans were stretched thin. William had to recruit volunteers from all over northern Europe to come help him.
When the “Normans” set out for the Holy Land, conquering new lands along the way, they must have been stretched even thinner and brought recruits from all their possessions..
Posted by at 6:53 PM on January 4
“Rise German people rise!!You have a right to sovereignty…..Posted by Elrey Jones at 6:24 PM on January 2
The hubris in remarks such as these is just unbelievable.If you as an American, member of a hyperpower, feel impotent to affect events in your own country, why in the world do you expect Gemans to take control in theirs?It is astonishing to see pithy bromides dispensed such as this after several posters have already alluded to the fact that ordinary white people,regardless of nationality, have NO SAY in the direction that their politicians lead them. In east asia ( where I’m originally from ) any politician advocating such self-destructive immigrant/multicult platforms would be in extreme peril of his life. We spontaneously erupt in bloody riots in the streets for much, much less provocation.
Posted by at 1:03 AM on January 3 “
Mr. East Asian,
When the Germans, Italian, American, or any other Caucasian group rises to fight for their sovereignty, civil, and human rights (not only from the africans but from east asains, Arabs, and other colonialists in countries that do not want you) then all others will follow suit. And you speak in violent terms with your “extreme peril of his life” talk. You sound oppressive and intimidating. I am 100% assured of what I speak and our revolution is perpetuated by each of us and not any one politician that you would seem to want to harm.
Posted by at 8:46 PM on January 4
The Ottoman Empire had Islam as its basic defining characteristic, thus the original founding Turks would accept as a ‘brother’ and equal anyone who professed Islam regardless of whatever their nationality might be.
In the late 19th century, Russian invasions of the Caucasus region impelled thousands upon thousands of muslim Chechens to flee to Turkey, purely due to religion.
Many were resettled in ‘empty lands’ in what is now Syria.
Posted by Kenelm Digby at 7:40 AM on January 5
“Christian-Occidental” is a much better term than “Judeo-Christian.”
Posted by Joe at 4:25 PM on January 8
“Christian-Occidental” is a much better term than “Judeo-Christian.”
Posted by Joe
Many of us out here are not practicing Christians. I’m not anti-Christian, by ay means, but I’d be satisfaied with just “Occidental”.
Posted by browser at 5:00 PM on January 9